Good Read // Column: Stop Calling for Archie's Job

[NotIThatLives]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

A system focused on defensive output, was said about CTC???? No, it wasn't. Completely different systems.

Don't skim over "athletes needed to run the system."  If we go through another 5 years of having to have a loaded team in order to compete, you think the natives are restless now?  There won't be natives, we'll be Illinois.  

[MSHoosier]

45 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

On the other hand, there are things CAM needs to improve on, I think, just as clearly. Among those are outside shooting/offensive focus. The D is developing very well. The O is not. We can't be a throw-back 2-point grind it out team. That is not a recipe for success in this era of basketball, it's just not. I don't think that's his plan, but the early returns on his offensive development are at best mixed.

Agree with this. I will continue to point this out and maybe (hopefully) someone can show me where I am wrong, but I don't see where this defensive system has helped anyone win a title.  Bennett has not made final four. Sendak, Miller's coach, never made a final four. Brother Sean, never made final four.  On the other hand, teams that emphasize taking away the three and playing more pressure defense, playing up tempo offense  and using the 3-point shot seem to have won most of the titles in the last decade. 

Maybe we are heading for a new era. Since I love defense and I can't shoot it would please me.

I pray this is true.

  

[hoosierhoosier]

13 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Don't skim over "athletes needed to run the system."  If we go through another 5 years of having to have a loaded team in order to compete, you think the natives are restless now?  There won't be natives, we'll be Illinois.  

The author says "athletes needed to run the system"  NOT ARCHIE. 

Name the superstar that Archie rode to the E8.......nothing? Name the star Crean rode to the F4.....one needs fundamentally sound players one needs superstars.

Archie does not equal Crean...i will say the O is painful this year though

[NotIThatLives]

6 minutes ago, hoosierhoosier said:

The author says "athletes needed to run the system"  NOT ARCHIE. 

Name the superstar that Archie rode to the E8.......nothing? Name the star Crean rode to the F4.....one needs fundamentally sound players one needs superstars.

Archie does not equal Crean...i will say the O is painful this year though

So the author poorly worded this?  

I'm all for giving him ti.e to develop his program and system.  I am extremely disappointed, so far, that Romeos one year and Juwans senior year is looking like this.  I want to see more creativity and flexibility,  adaptability to the personnel.   

[addictedtoIU]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

Does this not sound familiar? 

"runs a system that requires versatility and length. He runs a system that is focused on defensive output and without the athletes need to run that system, struggles are inevitable."  

I thought that's what we said about CTC. 

Kinda similar in that both coaches need pretty good talents to win a bunch of games, but in fact every coach does. The difference is Crean needed players who got skills and can OUTRUN the opponents because the emphasis was always on offense. Those players are normally high 4 stars and 5 star athletes. When he couldn't recruit up to that level, his system crumbled simply because he needed high offensive output to have a chance to win games. On the other hand, Archie needs length and versatility for defense, and those players don't necessarily have to be high 4 stars and 5 stars. 

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, addictedtoIU said:

Kinda similar in that both coaches need pretty good talents to win a bunch of games, but in fact every coach does. The difference is Crean needed players who got skills and can OUTRUN the opponents because the emphasis was always on offense. Those players are normally high 4 stars and 5 star athletes. When he couldn't recruit up to that level, his system crumbled simply because he needed high offensive output to have a chance to win games. On the other hand, Archie needs length and versatility for defense, and those players don't necessarily have to be high 4 stars and 5 stars. 

Let me know what coach doesn't need talent to win

[ArchieBall13]

19 minutes ago, MSHoosier said:

Agree with this. I will continue to point this out and maybe (hopefully) someone can show me where I am wrong, but I don't see where this defensive system has helped anyone win a title.  Bennett has not made final four. Sendak, Miller's coach, never made a final four. Brother Sean, never made final four.  On the other hand, teams that emphasize taking away the three and playing more pressure defense, playing up tempo offense  and using the 3-point shot seem to have won most of the titles in the last decade. 

Maybe we are heading for a new era. Since I love defense and I can't shoot it would please me.

I pray this is true.

  

Unlikely we're moving away from the 3 ball unless basketball rules change to bring the line out farther than it currently is. Part of me thinks Archie may be coming around to the 3 ball a bit more...listen to his Northwestern post game press conference. If you have open looks from 3, you need to take them. If we don't have enough shooters to make open 3's consistently on the roster that is a problem.

[addictedtoIU]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Let me know what coach doesn't need talent to win

Every coach needs talents, but if a coach can really coach, he can roll with lesser talents. 

[NotIThatLives]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Let me know what coach doesn't need talent to win

We have talent

[IU Scott]

38 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

We have talent

 2 really good players and the rest not that talented or they have been injured

[rico]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

 2 really good players and the rest not that talented or they have been injured

You are saying Phin isn't talented?  Justin isn't talented?  What exactly are you saying?

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

Don't skim over "athletes needed to run the system."  If we go through another 5 years of having to have a loaded team in order to compete, you think the natives are restless now?  There won't be natives, we'll be Illinois.  

Imo most teams need athletes to run their systems, long and athletic players are highly valued, as they should be. It's not like CAM is recruiting athletic guys who can't play (e.g., Hanner). His recruiting has been very good to date, though, imo, we need more emphasis on shooting.

[Rev_AK]

Best quote I read from the Article, and the 800 pound gorilla in the room for this season:

“Devonte Green is suspended. Evan Fitzner lacks confidence to be effective. De’Ron Davis has rarely been healthy. Damezi Anderson isn’t ready for Big Ten basketball. Clifton Moore has been okay in short bursts. Jerome Hunter is out for the season. Race Thompson has missed the majority of the season and was just cleared for basketball activity.

How is that a roster that is expected to compete in the Big Ten?”

All of the guys saying they are tired of injury excuses, how are the Pacers going to fare without Victor?

How did the Colts fare with Curtis Painter as QB? And the guy who ran out of bounds in the end zone?

Granted, we didn’t lose Romeo or Juwan. But is Juwan a 5? Did he do well getting dunked on by Haarms? 

Can Romeo, even as an Uber-gifted freshman carry 50% of the offense on a Big Ten team? Especially without RP ( who is rising) for those games? And with Justin, who simply can catch the ball in traffic? 

The over reactions by some of the fan base, led by a jaded former player/ coach who also just happened to play for RMK, are quite honestly emabarassing. Looks like the kind of stuff we would see on “Cats Pause” or whatever. Did we miss out on Mack? Maybe, but Archie has just as good a pedigree. Do we really want to keep revisiting the Knight firing?? Are we ever going to let it go? 

Obviosly, there are more questions than answers right now... I can only hope the Hall is he same tomorrow night as it would be any other time a highly ranked opponent is there, and we can begin the process of salvaging this season. Just because our country is sharply divided, doesn’t mean Hoosier Nation has to be. Go IU

 

PS. I’d also like to add that no one is pointing out that Crean taught just about the opposite style of basketball as Archie, and when the chips are down, “his” guys seem to revert back to it. I think that could be a source of trouble with Devonte, maybe he thinks Crean’s way gets him more points, hence the forcing shots, etc 

[IU Scott]

28 minutes ago, rico said:

You are saying Phin isn't talented?  Justin isn't talented?  What exactly are you saying?

RP injured and working himself back into shape

Justin is athletic but not a great basketball player

[IU Scott]

24 minutes ago, Rev_AK said:

Best quote I read from the Article, and the 800 pound gorilla in the room for this season:

“Devonte Green is suspended. Evan Fitzner lacks confidence to be effective. De’Ron Davis has rarely been healthy. Damezi Anderson isn’t ready for Big Ten basketball. Clifton Moore has been okay in short bursts. Jerome Hunter is out for the season. Race Thompson has missed the majority of the season and was just cleared for basketball activity.

How is that a roster that is expected to compete in the Big Ten?”

All of the guys saying they are tired of injury excuses, how are the Pacers going to fare without Victor?

How did the Colts fare with Curtis Painter as QB? And the guy who ran out of bounds in the end zone?

Granted, we didn’t lose Romeo or Juwan. But is Juwan a 5? Did he do well getting dunked on by Haarms? 

Can Romeo, even as an Uber-gifted freshman carry 50% of the offense on a Big Ten team? Especially without RP ( who is rising) for those games? And with Justin, who simply can catch the ball in traffic? 

The over reactions by some of the fan base, led by a jaded former player/ coach who also just happened to play for RMK, are quite honestly emabarassing. Looks like the kind of stuff we would see on “Cats Pause” or whatever. Did we miss out on Mack? Maybe, but Archie has just as good a pedigree. Do we really want to keep revisiting the Knight firing?? Are we ever going to let it go? 

Obviosly, there are more questions than answers right now... I can only hope the Hall is he same tomorrow night as it would be any other time a highly ranked opponent is there, and we can begin the process of salvaging this season. Just because our country is sharply divided, doesn’t mean Hoosier Nation has to be. Go IU

Amen

[ATX_sig]

Justin smith is fine player.  If anything, he is being over extended in his role. He is probably being relied on a bit to much offensively.   He should be rebounding, getting garbage points of offensive rebounds, getting buckets receiving passes when cutting to the basket, playing defense and  bringing energy to the floor. .    I hope he doesn't leave amongst a bunch of drama and discontent before IU reaps the benefits of his play as a Jr and Sr. 

Don't know if Archie is answer but I like his coaching style.  I'm just gonna watch and root for them.  He gets 4 years unless a flock of 5 stars walk through the door in this years class and they stink again. I'll complain about him when  the Phin class is in their Jr. year. and they have shown no improvement.   Other than Romeo and maybe Hunter, what did anyone think the Frosh were going to do.  

[Zville Hoosier]

That’s a good article. I think the only thing I take some exception to is that “Clifton Moore has been ok in short bursts”. He’s been better than ok and frankly, he’s given a heck of s lot more energy than others playing in front of him. It’s really hard to come in cold like that and contribute right away but that’s all he does. I’d really like to see him get 20-25 minutes. 

[Indykev]

5 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

I may be the minority here. Despite recent trends, I have confidence Archie will be very successful long term and will eventually be a beloved IU icon after coaching here for 20 years.

He will grow, he will get his systems etc. He is a culture guy, he is building for consistency, not a quick fix.

I pray I am right. 

 

You are not in the minority.

5 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

I may be the minority here. Despite recent trends, I have confidence Archie will be very successful long term and will eventually be a beloved IU icon after coaching here for 20 years.

He will grow, he will get his systems etc. He is a culture guy, he is building for consistency, not a quick fix.

I pray I am right. 

 

 

[rico]

19 minutes ago, Zville Hoosier said:

That’s a good article. I think the only thing I take some exception to is that “Clifton Moore has been ok in short bursts”. He’s been better than ok and frankly, he’s given a heck of s lot more energy than others playing in front of him. It’s really hard to come in cold like that and contribute right away but that’s all he does. I’d really like to see him get 20-25 minutes. 

But he ain't ready yet!  That is what quite a few of us have been asking for.........more Moore.

[Steubenhoosier]

34 minutes ago, Zville Hoosier said:

That’s a good article. I think the only thing I take some exception to is that “Clifton Moore has been ok in short bursts”. He’s been better than ok and frankly, he’s given a heck of s lot more energy than others playing in front of him. It’s really hard to come in cold like that and contribute right away but that’s all he does. I’d really like to see him get 20-25 minutes. 

Agree with exactly what CAM said about Moore. Good in short bursts. Nothing that we have seen to suggest that Moore could sustain the level of play we’ve seen over longer stretches. What I have seen is that he still needs to put muscle on his frame, and I think it would show itself more the longer he plays. Even in the few minutes he played versus Purdue, their bigs muscled him away from the basket a couple of times. I also don’t know if Moore brings enough offensively for a team that needs to find ways to score more.

 I do think that what Moore has shown thus far warrants a little more playing time. I would like to see him get 12-14 minutes spread out in 2-3 short stints each half. Let him show that he can handle that increase and be productive before really extending him 

[Colonialcrester]

4 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Scott.  There is only one IU board worth reading for reasonable discussion.

Tell me where it is so I can go there!😁

[iuthruandthru]

1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Agree with exactly what CAM said about Moore. Good in short bursts. Nothing that we have seen to suggest that Moore could sustain the level of play we’ve seen over longer stretches. What I have seen is that he still needs to put muscle on his frame, and I think it would show itself more the longer he plays. Even in the few minutes he played versus Purdue, their bigs muscled him away from the basket a couple of times. I also don’t know if Moore brings enough offensively for a team that needs to find ways to score more.

 I do think that what Moore has shown thus far warrants a little more playing time. I would like to see him get 12-14 minutes spread out in 2-3 short stints each half. Let him show that he can handle that increase and be productive before really extending him 

I definitely agree with this.  We don’t need him playing 20-30 minutes all of a sudden.  But he definitely deserves to at least double or triple the time he has gotten so we can get a better idea of those short bursts actually translate over longer minutes of play. 

[Drroogh]

Finally read the article, and thought it was a bit of journalistic sensationalism. Still made some valid points about the depth issues. Just thinking back to prior to the season it seemed the general consensus was three areas of concern. Who and how good would the Point be, what kind of outside shooting would we have and how would we handle some of the big bangers at the 5 in the BIG! Seems all of those concerns came to fruition!  Have to say RP has exceeded expectations but DG has not! The RP injury has definitely set us back! Outside shooting is woeful. DD has actually given more than we expected going into the season but he is still a long way off and the concerns at the 5 have proven valid! Guess all of the worries prior to the season were spot on, so it seems a mystery to me that everyone seems to have expected a different outcome. That being said, I'm as P..... as the next IU fan! 

[IU Scott]

This will go into the category of you can't make this crap up.  A thread on another board was started that after IU fires Archie we should hire Kelvin Sampson.

[IowaHoosierFan]

meh, i am tired of all the excuses.  They are what they are.  Play hard.  Get back on defense.  Don't make lazy passes.  Play with passion.  Run some sort of offense.  Hit free throws.  If we do this and lose, then we were beat by better talent or a better coached team.  If we do all of these things then i will be happy with the play and disappointed with the season, not the coach or the team.  Lots of teams have injuries or have to play freshman who are not ready.  Its how they respond that determines how we as fan respond.  The first 2 years of Coach Crean had very little talent on that team, but they played hard every single game and never game up or lost heart.  They didn't win, but they lost with pride and passion.  This current team doesn't seem to have that and that is what is driving me mad.