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10 hours ago, Danomatic said:

Hey, I felt obligated to post some different perspective. So here goes...

We all knew that this season would hinge on how well Romeo’s game would transition from high school to college. I honestly feel like he’s hit the “freshman wall.” 

When the season started, I was ecstatic and through the first 14 games, I raised my expectations as a result. We were banged up, but we were managing to get by. I thought that by us winning the close games early on, would somehow benefit us down the road. Our kids were fighting and improving on a daily basis. 

Now, I realize that my bias towards our Hoosiers can paint a pretty crazy picture. However, I’m an optimist and can’t help it. 

After the past few(6) games, I’ve come to the realization that I can no longer be upset with how this season has unfolded. I should’ve known... I mean, I also happen to coach and absolutely understand what it’s like to have young players and injuries derail a season. While I’ve certainly never coached at that level, I can somehow relate to those circumstances.

I mean, we all should’ve known that Juwan would be the only upperclassmen that we could consistently rely on. Yes, there was the unknown in Evan Fitzner, who happens to be a liability defensively when he isn’t knocking down shots. Then there’s a senior walk-on in McRoberts. Nothing against the two I previously mentioned, but we were expecting A LOT from two guys who wouldn’t be on our team if not for the glaring problem in our class imbalance. 

Our two juniors? Well, let’s be honest, one is now gone and somehow regressed after his freshman season. And poor Davis, who I happen to really like... can’t stay on the court. So we really don’t have a junior class! 

We have two sophomores that get to play and one who I feel could contribute, but is still very raw.

Literally, we have ten, TEN underclassmen on this team. They hardly have any experience and if I’m being completely honest with myself and all of you, we should have seen this coming. 

So, those of us who are being too hard on ourselves and/or Archie and the boys, we should all relax. 

I know some of us have second guessed Archie and his hiring, but we(myself included) should re-evaluate and relax. None of this is his fault. Sure, it’s his responsibility to prepare them and he will always take the blame when things are off kilter. But he does need time. As much as I want to see them win and win right now. I need to temper my expectations. Perhaps my expectations for this season should be next season? Maybe some of you feel the same, maybe not... 

Regardless, I’m going to enjoy watching these kids grow this season. I will get aggravated, but will get over it. As I hope you all do as well. 

Here’s to hoping that we can somehow salvage this season and the boys can learn and grow. Have a good night and great weekend, Hoosier Nation!

Cheers! 🍻 

 

 

Well thought out, and timely, thanks.

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13 hours ago, Danomatic said:

Hey, I felt obligated to post some different perspective. So here goes...

We all knew that this season would hinge on how well Romeo’s game would transition from high school to college. I honestly feel like he’s hit the “freshman wall.” 

When the season started, I was ecstatic and through the first 14 games, I raised my expectations as a result. We were banged up, but we were managing to get by. I thought that by us winning the close games early on, would somehow benefit us down the road. Our kids were fighting and improving on a daily basis. 

Now, I realize that my bias towards our Hoosiers can paint a pretty crazy picture. However, I’m an optimist and can’t help it. 

After the past few(6) games, I’ve come to the realization that I can no longer be upset with how this season has unfolded. I should’ve known... I mean, I also happen to coach and absolutely understand what it’s like to have young players and injuries derail a season. While I’ve certainly never coached at that level, I can somehow relate to those circumstances.

I mean, we all should’ve known that Juwan would be the only upperclassmen that we could consistently rely on. Yes, there was the unknown in Evan Fitzner, who happens to be a liability defensively when he isn’t knocking down shots. Then there’s a senior walk-on in McRoberts. Nothing against the two I previously mentioned, but we were expecting A LOT from two guys who wouldn’t be on our team if not for the glaring problem in our class imbalance. 

Our two juniors? Well, let’s be honest, one is now gone and somehow regressed after his freshman season. And poor Davis, who I happen to really like... can’t stay on the court. So we really don’t have a junior class! 

We have two sophomores that get to play and one who I feel could contribute, but is still very raw.

Literally, we have ten, TEN underclassmen on this team. They hardly have any experience and if I’m being completely honest with myself and all of you, we should have seen this coming. 

So, those of us who are being too hard on ourselves and/or Archie and the boys, we should all relax. 

I know some of us have second guessed Archie and his hiring, but we(myself included) should re-evaluate and relax. None of this is his fault. Sure, it’s his responsibility to prepare them and he will always take the blame when things are off kilter. But he does need time. As much as I want to see them win and win right now. I need to temper my expectations. Perhaps my expectations for this season should be next season? Maybe some of you feel the same, maybe not... 

Regardless, I’m going to enjoy watching these kids grow this season. I will get aggravated, but will get over it. As I hope you all do as well. 

Here’s to hoping that we can somehow salvage this season and the boys can learn and grow. Have a good night and great weekend, Hoosier Nation!

Cheers! 🍻 

 

 

Well said Danomatic. Been preaching all year the lack of help Crean left in the cupboard. The early games gave us false expectations. Playing in the toughest conference in the country with very little talent. 

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I take exception with one thing about the original post.  It's about using the phrase, and specifically the word 'none' of it being Archie's fault.  Is it all Archie's fault?  No.  The previous coaching staff bears some responsibility.  The players deserve some responsibility. Injuries are probably the single biggest factor.   Hell, even the fans are responsible for having expectations that were not in line with what this team could do.  

That said.....Archie is the coach of this team.  No, he should not be fired, or even be talked about being on the hot seat.  But, to say he has 'none' of the responsibility is as flawed as saying  it's all his fault.  Coaches have adjusted to what we are trying to do offensively.  We need to counter, and so far we have not done that.

Injuries can and do absolutely derail seasons all the time.  Final Four caliber teams become 2nd round victims.  Tournament teams miss the tournament.  But, let's not forget that the single biggest injury here is Jerome Hunter.  And, he's been gone all year,, so while we miss his offense, we did not have it when we were playing well either.  The second biggest injury was Rob's.  But Rob is now back, and there is no way we should have had teh start we did against Michigan.  Heck, 17-0 is ridiculous even without Rob.

I was in the Hall for the Central Arkansas and Jacksonville games.  IU fell behind double digits in both of those games early as well.  In those cases, the competition allowed us to come back.  You simply can't do that against teams in the Big Ten.  

Archie needs to use the bench as a motivator.  At this point, Juwan is the only player that should be given the benefit of the doubt.  Yes, even Romeo should ride pine for taking bad shots and having lazy turnovers.  I realize you can't bench them all at the same time, but when you fall behind 17-0, trying something different may be in order.

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10 hours ago, 5fouls said:

I take exception with one thing about the original post.  It's about using the phrase, and specifically the word 'none' of it being Archie's fault.  Is it all Archie's fault?  No.  The previous coaching staff bears some responsibility.  The players deserve some responsibility. Injuries are probably the single biggest factor.   Hell, even the fans are responsible for having expectations that were not in line with what this team could do.  

That said.....Archie is the coach of this team.  No, he should not be fired, or even be talked about being on the hot seat.  But, to say he has 'none' of the responsibility is as flawed as saying  it's all his fault.  Coaches have adjusted to what we are trying to do offensively.  We need to counter, and so far we have not done that.

Injuries can and do absolutely derail seasons all the time.  Final Four caliber teams become 2nd round victims.  Tournament teams miss the tournament.  But, let's not forget that the single biggest injury here is Jerome Hunter.  And, he's been gone all year,, so while we miss his offense, we did not have it when we were playing well either.  The second biggest injury was Rob's.  But Rob is now back, and there is no way we should have had teh start we did against Michigan.  Heck, 17-0 is ridiculous even without Rob.

I was in the Hall for the Central Arkansas and Jacksonville games.  IU fell behind double digits in both of those games early as well.  In those cases, the competition allowed us to come back.  You simply can't do that against teams in the Big Ten.  

Archie needs to use the bench as a motivator.  At this point, Juwan is the only player that should be given the benefit of the doubt.  Yes, even Romeo should ride pine for taking bad shots and having lazy turnovers.  I realize you can't bench them all at the same time, but when you fall behind 17-0, trying something different may be in order.

Great post. I would say it's particularly troubling how bad we start; we should have a good gameplan to get easy shots early and that's on the coach. 

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20 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Very good perspective. It does raise a question, for all that happened during Crean's tenure, did Tom Crean leave the program in a materially better position than he found it?

That is the million dollar question that we probably don't talk about enough. I'm not sure he did. Crean won the Big 10 in  Year #5. If, at best, Crean left the program in the same state that he found it, should the expectations of having Indiana back be in the 4-6 year range?

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15 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Barely, we almost were postseason inelgible because of APR. 

To clarify, did Crean leave us in a materially better position to compete at a high level than he found us? I think the answer is no. 

Ha! That's some revionist-ass revisionism. Crean took over a program with eight returning minutes. Not eight per game, I'm taking total for their career. Archie took over a team with five four-star recruits. I get that it's easy to feel better about the new guy by blaming everything wrong on the old guy, but you're being silly.

If that's how you feel about our last coach, then consider that with the state the program was in in 2009, the only guy we could hire for the job was Tom Cream. By 2017, the program was enough of a destination to land one of the best young up and coming coaches in the business, who had just said no to his alma mater NC State.

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1 hour ago, Maedhros said:

Ha! That's some revionist-ass revisionism. Crean took over a program with eight returning minutes. Not eight per game, I'm taking total for their career. Archie took over a team with five four-star recruits. I get that it's easy to feel better about the new guy by blaming everything wrong on the old guy, but you're being silly.

If that's how you feel about our last coach, then consider that with the state the program was in in 2009, the only guy we could hire for the job was Tom Cream. By 2017, the program was enough of a destination to land one of the best young up and coming coaches in the business, who had just said no to his alma mater NC State.

My question to you then is, who besides Juwan did Crean leave us that is a power 5 conference quality player? Don’t lie to yourself trying to figure this out. 

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8 minutes ago, kyhoosier29 said:

My question to you then is, who besides Juwan did Crean leave us that is a power 5 conference quality player? Don’t lie to yourself trying to figure this out. 

Juwan is already far more than Crean was left with, so the original claim is nonsense. But if you want to move the goalposts, I'll keep playing.

De'Ron is certainly a player, injuries are the problem there. Curtis Jones is getting 20 minutes per at power 5 Oklahoma State. Justin Smith is a top 100 recruit that would be in the rotation at just about any school, as was Robert Johnson. And of course, at the time Crean was fired there were still three players on the roster who eventually turned pro, two of whom are now solid contributors in the NBA.

Crean had his issues toward the end, no doubt. Recruiting fell off of where it needed to be, particularly at the point, and Crean was rightly fired for it. But the claim that the cupboard was bare is being overstated, and especially on this page is starting to sound ridiculous

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17 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

Juwan is already far more than Crean was left with, so the original claim is nonsense. But if you want to move the goalposts, I'll keep playing.

De'Ron is certainly a player, injuries are the problem there. Curtis Jones is getting 20 minutes per at power 5 Oklahoma State. Justin Smith is a top 100 recruit that would be in the rotation at just about any school, as was Robert Johnson. And of course, at the time Crean was fired there were still three players on the roster who eventually turned pro, two of whom are now solid contributors in the NBA.

Crean had his issues toward the end, no doubt. Recruiting fell off of where it needed to be, particularly at the point, and Crean was rightly fired for it. But the claim that the cupboard was bare is being overstated, and especially on this page is starting to sound ridiculous

Crean left a mess no matter how much you wish it were not true.  I do like Durham a lot.  He's a throwback.  Morgan is fantastic.  Smart, tough, skilled.  Love him.  It's not that Crean couldn't do anything right.  It's that he's not sharp and his overall strategies were flawed and failed.  He had many years (too many) to show he was the right guy, but it was beyond his capability.

Davis could easily be our third best player.  But, he's going to be perpetually twisting something until he commits himself to getting into shape, and we are already wrapping up his junior year so we've frittered away the bulk of his career already.  I think people would be shocked at how good Davis could be.  He's huge, naturally strong, physically tough, and very skilled.  

I don't see an argument for anyone else.  

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1 hour ago, Maedhros said:

Juwan is already far more than Crean was left with, so the original claim is nonsense. But if you want to move the goalposts, I'll keep playing.

De'Ron is certainly a player, injuries are the problem there. Curtis Jones is getting 20 minutes per at power 5 Oklahoma State. Justin Smith is a top 100 recruit that would be in the rotation at just about any school, as was Robert Johnson. And of course, at the time Crean was fired there were still three players on the roster who eventually turned pro, two of whom are now solid contributors in the NBA.

Crean had his issues toward the end, no doubt. Recruiting fell off of where it needed to be, particularly at the point, and Crean was rightly fired for it. But the claim that the cupboard was bare is being overstated, and especially on this page is starting to sound ridiculous

Original claim? You talking about me or somebody else? I don’t care two craps what Crean was left with. He was a disaster. I’m talking about what CAM was left with. You’re moving your own goalposts. Below are the guys CAM was left with last year. Since you’re talking stars next to names, not one of these guys was a high 4 star or 5 star recruit. You expect to win with that? 

Priller 

Hartman

Moore

McSwain 

Davis 

McRoberts 

Morgan 

Green 

Johnson

Smith

Newkirk

Durham

Davis has been injured and out of shape his entire tenure. So what’s your point? He SHOULD have been a power 5 player? Curtis Jones, good for him .... ha ha. Don’t agree that he’s a power 5 player. Justin Smith is potential and nothing else at this point. Has not improved one lick. Awful on offense, lacks effort often and fine on D most of the time. I don’t care about Rob Johnson, he’s gone. 

With that said, I like Al. I think he can improve and be useful the next two years. 

 

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My man, you're the one who replied to my post. I assumed you were joining the conversation, and had read not just my post but also the post to which I was responding. If you're confused as to the original claim,  you're welcome to put in the work yourself to find that post and the person I quoted at the time.

Now, responding to what you said, I think you need to define your terms. Davis and Rob were both top 50 recruits. Curtis Jones and Justin Smith top 75ish. Juwan Morgan was fringe top 100, and ultimately our MVP the last two seasons. I don't know what you have in mind by "win", but yes I think that's plenty of talent to avoid some of the results we've seen in the Archie era. Good luck comparing that roster to that of Indiana State, Fort Wayne, Rutgers or even of Northwestern

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4 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

My man, you're the one who replied to my post. I assumed you were joining the conversation, and had read not just my post but also the post to which I was responding. If you're confused as to the original claim,  you're welcome to put in the work yourself to find that post and the person I quoted at the time.

Now, responding to what you said, I think you need to define your terms. Davis and Rob were both top 50 recruits. Curtis Jones and Justin Smith top 75ish. Juwan Morgan was fringe top 100, and ultimately our MVP the last two seasons. I don't know what you have in mind by "win", but yes I think that's plenty of talent to avoid some of the results we've seen in the Archie era. Good luck comparing that roster to that of Indiana State, Fort Wayne, Rutgers or even of Northwestern

Also see the roster Purdue is currently blowing out MSU with (posted in another thread):

Edwards (Junior, #118 recruit in his class), Cline (Junior #159), Eastern (Sophomore #69), Williams (Freshman #155), Eifert (Senior NR), Haarms (Sophomore #352) Wheeler (Sophomore #174), Hunter (Freshman #151), and Stefanovic (Sophomore #374).  

From a talent perspective, Crean left IU’s roster in far better shape than the roster Purdue is currently winning with.

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13 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Also see the roster Purdue is currently blowing out MSU with (posted in another thread):

Edwards (Junior, #118 recruit in his class), Cline (Junior #159), Eastern (Sophomore #69), Williams (Freshman #155), Eifert (Senior NR), Haarms (Sophomore #352) Wheeler (Sophomore #174), Hunter (Freshman #151), and Stefanovic (Sophomore #374).  

From a talent perspective, Crean left IU’s roster in far better shape than the roster Purdue is currently winning with.

It's about balance and shooting, not recruiting ranking numbers.  Crean left us no guards, no shooters, and no big men. Let Archie finishing recruiting for his system before we judge his coaching on a bunch of guys recruited for a system that is the complete opposite of Archie's.

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