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What has happened to this team?


DC2345
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I’m convinced that something has happened internally that has caused a fracture in the IU locker room. This team looks like it has flat out shut down. They look like they are going through the motions. This is something I’ve seen with high school teams multiple times so I know what that looks like. I know the rumor was that Green failed a drug test but is that all that has happened or was that a cover story for something else or is there other stuff going on? I’m also inclined to think that this is more than just Crean players mad about the way CAM coaches. If there isn’t more to what is going on then it is time to say that CAM is in over his head and that Fred made a mistake and needs to cut bait. I’m not to that point yet though because I do know building a program takes time. So if someone that does have insight into the inner workings of the program could shed some light on this that would be great.

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CAM is not “in over his head” and anyone who thinks they can determine that in 1.5 seasons after coming off of his years at a Dayton is just in a pure panic and is basically a cat chasing its tail.

It’s MUCH more likely that there is some major drama going on behind the scenes. Stick with your original notion. 

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1) Archie is nowhere near in over his head. Actually his post game comments last night proved to me a combination of a few things. He gave the kids plenty of time to dig themselves out before saying anything in public....which is a positive. Secondly...he finally said what we've been saying.

2) Culture takes time. Minimally 2-3 full recruiting classes and that's if you hit on each recruit. 

3) It's obvious something has happened. To me smoking weed is just a reaction by a kid because of other things. Doesn't matter. We'll have a few of these guys gone and if it means we have to add grad transfers or spring recruits...so be it. 

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One observation:

The team as a whole looks flat when Romeo is out there vs when he is on the bench.  I dont think its all Romeo's doing either.  When you have a talent come in like that the other guys that were there naturally get a little jealous.  I think some egos need to be adjusted.  I think Romeo has backed off a little while on the floor the last 4-5 games at times and the team has absolutely shut down as a result.  There seems to be some friction amongst the guys.  Juwan needs to step up (and maybe he has) as the senior leader and get in these guys' grills.  It has to happen now or the season will be lost. 

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The team that beat Marquette, Louisville, and Butler showed me what CAM can put together as a coach. The team we have seen of late shows me what happens with some type of implosion. I thought of the replacements movie when the owner was in the booth and said, “they’re quitting on ya.”  This is about more than basketball, and in truth we may never know exactly what it is. 

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Go back to the secret game against Loyola.  Reports were that Hunter and Thompson were the studs that game.  They have length, their athletic and they can shoot.  

One has to beleive this team was built around Hunter, Romeo, and Morgan.  They thought Green would be a steady point as Rob grew into D1.  Mcroberts role would of been of that - a role to do the dirty work. 

Fast forward to today, guys like Rob, Justin and even Al had to grow up.  As scouting got better and the big ten is more athletic and long - things got tough.  McRoberts still looks like he is injured and the other guys are going through growing pains.

At this point what do you do?  Is there anyone who is showing anything in practice?  Maybe take Morgan off of the other big to help him not get so banged up.  Who would do that?  DAVIS!  Oh, he is injured as well.   

Edited by Fiveoutofsix
Mistake
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12 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

I agree. What I want to know is what the problem is and is it something that CAM can fix or has he lost to many of the players? 

I said this same thing a few weeks back.....the players will do better coming together as a team and having a "players only" meeting. No coaches allowed! Most importantly they need a good, well liked, well respected mediator,...someome like a popular walk on or maybe even Jerome Hunter. 

Folks, today's players are not built like they were "back in the day". Kids are alot more soft and not near as thick skined nor tough. I come from the same mold as many of you on here, where you rip a kid for being lazy, irresponsible and not following rules or directions.

....Again, I've been a high school teacher over 25+ years and 23 of those years of coaching girls basketball and softball. Some of my HS colleagues are getting out because students have made teaching miserable!

 Same goes for the student athlete. Many athletes have been coddled and expect preferential treatment wherever they go. Other players pick up on this quickly, thus starting dissention. If, in fact, this is a large part of this teams implosion currently, Archie knows it and will have no part in it.  I, for one, do not believe Archie condones this behavior IN THE LEAST! 

The team's issue right now IS NOT coaching and it IS NOT lack of talent....The issue has to be lack of toughness, lack of bb intelligence and internal personality conflicts amongst players. This spells for an overall team disaster!

 

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1 hour ago, Between2Halls said:

The team that beat Marquette, Louisville, and Butler showed me what CAM can put together as a coach. The team we have seen of late shows me what happens with some type of implosion. I thought of the replacements movie when the owner was in the booth and said, “they’re quitting on ya.”  This is about more than basketball, and in truth we may never know exactly what it is. 

I thought of the original Bad News Bears (lol) when the coach had the stud kid taking over, he was just doing what the coach asked him to do to get W’s, and the kids got mad and things imploded 

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34 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

I said this same thing a few weeks back.....the players will do better coming together as a team and having a "players only" meeting. No coaches allowed! Most importantly they need a good, well liked, well respected mediator,...someome like a popular walk on or maybe even Jerome Hunter. 

Folks, today's players are not built like they were "back in the day". Kids are alot more soft and not near as thick skined nor tough. I come from the same mold as many of you on here, where you rip a kid for being lazy, irresponsible and not following rules or directions.

....Again, I've been a high school teacher over 25+ years and 23 of those years of coaching girls basketball and softball. Some of my HS colleagues are getting out because students have made teaching miserable!

 Same goes for the student athlete. Many athletes have been coddled and expect preferential treatment wherever they go. Other players pick up on this quickly, thus starting dissention. If, in fact, this is a large part of this teams implosion currently, Archie knows it and will have no part in it.  I, for one, do not believe Archie condones this behavior IN THE LEAST! 

The team's issue right now IS NOT coaching and it IS NOT lack of talent....The issue has to be lack of toughness, lack of bb intelligence and internal personality conflicts amongst players. This spells for an overall team disaster!

 

I’m not much older than the guys on the team. I know this but there are issues and I’m not going to try and say what those are without knowing for sure. Yes toughness is an issue but I’m not going to say that is the only issue. There is clearly something else going on imo. 

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6 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

I’m not much older than the guys on the team. I know this but there are issues and I’m not going to try and say what those are without knowing for sure. Yes toughness is an issue but I’m not going to say that is the only issue. There is clearly something else going on imo. 

I have to believe this is true.

As the season went along, our weaknesses were exposed.  Injuries only made things worse.  The coaches in the B10 all know the game and have determined how to beat us.  Unfortunately, not being able to knock down shots with nothing close to a dominant inside presence makes it about as easy as it could be. (not a knock on Juwan, he's done amazingly well being forced to play out of position).  It may be jealousy, simple personality clashes, or other outside influences but we're obviously not dealing with it well.

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I’m not a fire Archie guy at least not yet.  

However,  I can’t quite figure out the love for this pac-line defense.  Now days the game is very perimeter oriented and I know I have touched on this before,  but most teams not named Indiana  have several good outside shooters.  This defense doesn’t cover the perimeter well at all. The 3 point shot is so important in this day,  you can’t afford to trade 2 for 3 or your going to get beat every time.  

Tell me why I’m wrong.

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4 minutes ago, Bowhunter said:

I’m not a fire Archie guy at least not yet.  

However,  I can’t quite figure out the love for this pac-line defense.  Now days the game is very perimeter oriented and I know I have touched on this before,  but most teams not named Indiana  have several good outside shooters.  This defense doesn’t cover the perimeter well at all. The 3 point shot is so important in this day,  you can’t afford to trade 2 for 3 or your going to get beat every time.  

Tell me why I’m wrong.

Well UVA has won a lot of games with this defense

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5 minutes ago, Bowhunter said:

I’m not a fire Archie guy at least not yet.  

However,  I can’t quite figure out the love for this pac-line defense.  Now days the game is very perimeter oriented and I know I have touched on this before,  but most teams not named Indiana  have several good outside shooters.  This defense doesn’t cover the perimeter well at all. The 3 point shot is so important in this day,  you can’t afford to trade 2 for 3 or your going to get beat every time.  

Tell me why I’m wrong.

I sure can't (tell you you're wrong).  How many teams play that type of defense well with great success?  I don't watch a lot of games other than ours, but I don't know if I've seen it played perfectly. 

I have to admit that I'd love to see us playing aggressive man to man defense and run a proper, motion offense.  If for no other reason than I believe I'd have a much better understanding and feel for whether it's being executed properly.

Edit: I think what gives a lot of us concern or doubts is the suggestion that it takes a long time to learn and requires a very specific type of roster.  This seems like it puts the team at more risk when injuries or NBA defections occur.  IDK.

Edited by Zuckerkorn
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To me this team has no fun while playing the game and are going through the motions.  I watch a lot of other games and those trams seem engaged in the game and when they make a great play you see the emotion.  You see the bench players are into the game and show great emotion but tis team you don't see nay of that.

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56 minutes ago, Bowhunter said:

I’m not a fire Archie guy at least not yet.  

However,  I can’t quite figure out the love for this pac-line defense.  Now days the game is very perimeter oriented and I know I have touched on this before,  but most teams not named Indiana  have several good outside shooters.  This defense doesn’t cover the perimeter well at all. The 3 point shot is so important in this day,  you can’t afford to trade 2 for 3 or your going to get beat every time.  

Tell me why I’m wrong.

 

52 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Well UVA has won a lot of games with this defense

The defense is predicated on probability.  You close down the lane and make them shoot from further out and preferably contested shots.  The further out you shoot, your percentage (probability) goes down.  We just don’t have guys that are closing out or they are flat out losing their man/rotation.  It’s a great defense when played correctly, but we’re just not executing it properly at the moment.  All five guys have to be on the same page.  

As @IU Scott mentioned and I’ve mentioned in other posts, but the other programs that run it and run it well, are typically the best defensive teams in the country year in and year out.  Our defense was EXCEPTIONAL the second half of last year.  Our current group just isn’t executing.

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After attending the game Fri, I am officially putting the current funk the IUBB team is in on the Players!  I and my wife were actually bored sitting there watching the first 10 min.  CAM can do the X's and O's.  The staff can teach an offense and a defense.  This team has the cerebral and most of the athletic parts of the game to be able to perform at much higher capacity than what I witnessed.  For those agreeing with DD and desiring to have CAM chew on some players, it happened several times Fri.  The team never responded.  At the shoot around, all I saw was guys taking shots, no one seemed to have much of any emotion.  At the introduction, same thing.  No real emotion.  No one on the team pointed out missed assignments.  Players were slow to get back on D especially after a missed shots.  Many missed block outs.  Not meaning to single out Justin, but he was more concerned with getting his shoe back on rather than being locked in to playing D and then commits a Foul to compound the problem.  Romeo complaining about calls and not getting back on D.   Morgan never once taking it upon himself to be the coach on the floor.  After all, he is a senior and it is shame he doesn't take this personally because this it reflects on how his career really turned out.  McRoberts literally appeared to be afraid of the ball and shooting.  Acting like it was a game of hot potato.  The current roster has chosen to play this way.  They can choose to play the way they did against Marquette.  But make no mistake, the choice is theirs and the problem is theirs to fix this year.  I still back CAM and he gets 3yrs before I begin to question him.  Whoever he recruits and hires will be fine with me.  As for this year, effort, emotion, and coming to games prepared to play is on the players. If they are not embarrassed  about the situation they have created by now then nothing is going to help them.  

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On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 11:24 AM, StLHoosier said:

 

The defense is predicated on probability.  You close down the lane and make them shoot from further out and preferably contested shots.  The further out you shoot, your percentage (probability) goes down.  We just don’t have guys that are closing out or they are flat out losing their man/rotation.  It’s a great defense when played correctly, but we’re just not executing it properly at the moment.  All five guys have to be on the same page.  

As @IU Scott mentioned and I’ve mentioned in other posts, but the other programs that run it and run it well, are typically the best defensive teams in the country year in and year out.  Our defense was EXCEPTIONAL the second half of last year.  Our current group just isn’t executing.

Agreed, and I don't want to point any fingers, but we had a guy at the beginning of last game who was responsible for screwing up this defense every possession until Michigan was already blowing us out pretty much.

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1 hour ago, NCHoosier32 said:

again?  what did we get this time?

We haven't won, and have become more dysfunctional looking ever since he decided to tweet.

It's 2019, I am sure every player knows what was said. I am sure every player knows his dad's thoughts are likely Justin's thoughts. And that's a very divisive thing.

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