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Beilein on Archie: It's all About Culture


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2 hours ago, BobSaccamanno said:

And to think we may have gotten Beilein instead of Sampson.  It may not have felt sexy at the time, but man did my face turn hot and my heart sink when I heard we lowered ourselves to Sampson.  

As for Archie's use of the bench, my hope is that he would be using it if he weren't so hamstrung by injuries.  

There was a point in the second half where we had a weird group out there, but they showed more life than the usual suspects did.  If you're going to lose a game, play for the long game, and use the bench to try to get the starters' attention.

Some of Knight's lesser teams (that maxed out at 20-23 wins) teetered on doing much worse than that, but he got them to win with their backs on the wall.  Instead of losing six straight, he may have gone 3-3 or 2-4 in those games.  People like to dog on Coach Knight, but he was a master and it wouldn't hurt Archie to study some of his philosophies.  

Help me understand you.  What Knight philosophies of are you suggesting?  Serious question.

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30 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Well I would hope our locker room sounded something like this after our last several games.  If not we may have hired the wrong guy yet again.

 

With all due respect.  I would  hope our locker room never sounds like that, again. As great a coach as Bobby was.... I hope you realize that he lost touch with recruits late into his coaching career... for acting precisely like that.  Yes, there was a time, kids came to IU to play for Knight.  However, there came a time when kids did not want to play for Bobby, because of acts like this.... and the toilet paper speech, as well as the banister of life splinter speech.  Not to mention the whip. Oh and the rape interview, as well as the flower pot, not to mention the cop in Puerto Rico.   Hope he gets his wish, about how he should be buried upside down, so the critics can kick his (xxx), rather than kiss it.     Yep, great coach. Just never changed.

TImes change.  And Bobby failed to change with the times.  As MacArthur said....."Old soldiers never die, they just fade away."   In "The General's" case (Bobby), he was losing his magic. And his act was getting tired.   Aside from being fired, time was fast approaching for him to just fade away.  Heck... even realized it, when he chose not to ride out his last season at Texas Tech. And so he moved on to ESPN.... where he quickly wore out his welcome there as well.

Old school, yes. It worked back then.  But other and better ways to communicate with individuals today. 

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1 hour ago, IUDan93 said:

So how would "freeing" up room for more of Archie's kind of guys effect APR?  (BTW-I am making an assumption that several of our current players are ones that Archie would consider to be not his kind of player.) 

As long as our academics were in order last year I would think we could afford to lose a few.  Maybe not a 4 or 5, but probably at least 1 or 2.  It would depend on how they were doing in their classes.

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4 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

I think one aspect of playing young guys early, if they are not ready, is that it could crush their confidence and growth.

Like a baseball team bringing up a kid from the minors before he is ready. He hits 220 and loses confidence, and may never get it back.

Sending an 18byear old kid out there to get dominated over and over can either make or break a kid. It is up to the coach to know how to handle each individual.

So maybe he is stubborn  maybe the kids really are that far from ready, and maybe he is also protecting them. Which is more forward thinking than some may realize.

I have no idea if this is the case at all. Just an angle to think about.

Every kid is different, and the coach knows their make up better than we do.

You are right. Every kid is different and there is no cookie cutter approach.

Turgeon was interviewed a couple weeks back. He said that he realized that his team was not going anywhere by only playing the returning guys from last year. He decided to play his freshmen meaningful minutes and live with the inevitable ups and downs. So far, that has looked like a great decision.

Maybe it would work for CAM, maybe not. Maybe it’s time he gives it a shot, maybe not 

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24 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

As long as our academics were in order last year I would think we could afford to lose a few.  Maybe not a 4 or 5, but probably at least 1 or 2.  It would depend on how they were doing in their classes.

Yeah, I was doing a quick search and found that if a kid transfers, it will not be held against the institution as long as the student was in good academic standing.

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1 hour ago, milehiiu said:

With all due respect.  I would  hope our locker room never sounds like that, again. As great a coach as Bobby was.... I hope you realize that he lost touch with recruits late into his coaching career... for acting precisely like that.  Yes, there was a time, kids came to IU to play for Knight.  However, there came a time when kids did not want to play for Bobby, because of acts like this.... and the toilet paper speech, as well as the banister of life splinter speech.  Not to mention the whip. Oh and the rape interview, as well as the flower pot, not to mention the cop in Puerto Rico.   Hope he gets his wish, about how he should be buried upside down, so the critics can kick his (xxx), rather than kiss it.     Yep, great coach. Just never changed.

TImes change.  And Bobby failed to change with the times.  As MacArthur said....."Old soldiers never die, they just fade away."   In "The General's" case (Bobby), he was losing his magic. And his act was getting tired.   Aside from being fired, time was fast approaching for him to just fade away.  Heck... even realized it, when he chose not to ride out his last season at Texas Tech. And so he moved on to ESPN.... where he quickly wore out his welcome there as well.

Old school, yes. It worked back then.  But other and better ways to communicate with individuals today. 

Thanks for this, Mile.  I'm in total agreement.  

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3 hours ago, Indykev said:

yes I agree, Al would be missed. I always forget Al.

Which probably means we wouldn’t miss him much if he was gone. I like AL’s effort and grit but Al is basically what McRoberts was last year. Effort guy...plays hard but still lacking in talent to finish at the rim or be a knock down shooter. Undersized really for a two he is basically a backup...and on one of our better Hoosier teams maybe get 8-10 mins a night and be a spark plug.

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1 hour ago, IUDan93 said:

Yeah, I was doing a quick search and found that if a kid transfers, it will not be held against the institution as long as the student was in good academic standing.

It does go against the institution whether they are in good academic standing or not.  It just goes against the institution even more if they’re in bad academic standing.  

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6 hours ago, BobSaccamanno said:

And to think we may have gotten Beilein instead of Sampson.  It may not have felt sexy at the time, but man did my face turn hot and my heart sink when I heard we lowered ourselves to Sampson.  

As for Archie's use of the bench, my hope is that he would be using it if he weren't so hamstrung by injuries.  

There was a point in the second half where we had a weird group out there, but they showed more life than the usual suspects did.  If you're going to lose a game, play for the long game, and use the bench to try to get the starters' attention.

Some of Knight's lesser teams (that maxed out at 20-23 wins) teetered on doing much worse than that, but he got them to win with their backs on the wall.  Instead of losing six straight, he may have gone 3-3 or 2-4 in those games.  People like to dog on Coach Knight, but he was a master and it wouldn't hurt Archie to study some of his philosophies.  

If we had hired Beilein, we would have fired him after a 46-53 start. Mike Davis' last three years, he was 48-41, including an NCAA appearance his last year.

Going back to culture, I look at the divergence that two programs, Indiana and Wisconsin experienced, beginning with decisions both made in 2001. RMK was fired and replaced by Mike Davis in 2000. The same year, Dick Bennett stepped down after 3 games and was replaced by assistant Brad Soderberg as interim. That season, IN finished 3rd in the BIG and WI 4th. IN hired Mike Davis (when he clearly wasn't ready, as he acknowledges). WI conducted a coaching search and ended up hiring Bo Ryan (they got lucky because he reportedly wasn't first choice).

Bo inherited a team that was drilled in Bennett's defensive system and conservative offense, which wasn't a big departure from Bo's philosophy. He had to teach them the swing offense and it was up from there. WI has been a model of consistency and fundamental basketball since then. Don't know if Gard can maintain it, but they are still competitive

Indiana, on the other hand, has been all over the map with coaching styles, systems, sanctions, etc during the same time. The fan base has been fractured. It's lost its identity and culture. Hopefully CAM can get a solid one established. He has to be given the opportunity and patience (not saying he can't be questioned). If not, IU basketball becomes DePaul.

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22 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

 

Indiana, on the other hand, has been all over the map with coaching styles, systems, sanctions, etc during the same time. The fan base has been fractured. It's lost its identity and culture. Hopefully CAM can get a solid one established. He has to be given the opportunity and patience (not saying he can't be questioned). If not, IU basketball becomes DePaul.

I am milehiiu.  And I approve of this message. 

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4 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

I am milehiiu.  And I approve of this message. 

Mile, Do you have insight into the chemistry issues.? Is it the leftover Crean recruits who are juniors, the sophomore Crean recruits that Archie brought in or Archie's first recruiting class? It is hard for me to believe that it would be the current senior class. 

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41 minutes ago, jefftheref said:

Mile, Do you have insight into the chemistry issues.? Is it the leftover Crean recruits who are juniors, the sophomore Crean recruits that Archie brought in or Archie's first recruiting class? It is hard for me to believe that it would be the current senior class. 

Can't say that I do.  Anything I could say at the moment would be pure speculation on my part.

_____________________

Always good to hear from ya, by the way.  Hoping well wishes coming your way,  for you and yours.

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3 hours ago, dgambill said:

Which probably means we wouldn’t miss him much if he was gone. I like AL’s effort and grit but Al is basically what McRoberts was last year. Effort guy...plays hard but still lacking in talent to finish at the rim or be a knock down shooter. Undersized really for a two he is basically a backup...and on one of our better Hoosier teams maybe get 8-10 mins a night and be a spark plug.

I see a different Senior Al. Plays hard, I wish he wouldnt shoot so much with his off hand but we would miss him I think.

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3 hours ago, jefftheref said:

Mile, Do you have insight into the chemistry issues.? Is it the leftover Crean recruits who are juniors, the sophomore Crean recruits that Archie brought in or Archie's first recruiting class? It is hard for me to believe that it would be the current senior class. 

 

Dakich has his opinion.  I think he has some extremely valid points.

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9 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

 

Dakich has his opinion.  I think he has some extremely valid points.

Dan likes to stir the pot but what he says in this clip I agree with 100%. I have turned 4 games off this year,not because we were losing but because of the way we play. It has been terrible at times this year.

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22 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Dan likes to stir the pot but what he says in this clip I agree with 100%. I have turned 4 games off this year,not because we were losing but because of the way we play. It has been terrible at times this year.

All I want to see is effort heart passion and a fight. I dont think that those expectations are too great for a player receiving a basketball scholarship from Indiana University 

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22 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Dan likes to stir the pot but what he says in this clip I agree with 100%. I have turned 4 games off this year,not because we were losing but because of the way we play. It has been terrible at times this year.

Yeah, I disagree with Dan quite a bit and I think he sometimes says things that stir the pot, however, that commentary was on point.  He summed up everything that has been bothering me this year about this team and he did it from a point of greater knowledge than I possess. 

I am just really disappointed in how things have gone.  I am really hoping that Miller is hearing some of this criticism and takes it constructively, if he plans on sticking around he HAS to do better.  This is his program right now, he needs to take control because right now it feels like the inmates are running the asylum.  Additionally, I agree with Dakich about the assistants, seems like we have a bunch of recruiters but not much in the way of developing that talent once we get it here.

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I hate to bring them up because of who they are, but UK got better mid-season by subtraction. No doubt they have started playing better almost instantly once a bad apple transferred. 

As for us, I think one problem took care of itself, the rest (I'm not sure who) will shake out or become more obvious as season winds up. It's really hard to understand why/how a kid can turn an opportunity like this into a pout session. But they are kids i suppose.  Having raised (survived) 3 teenagers, they do make you want to stab yourself in the face sometimes.

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37 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

All I want to see is effort heart passion and a fight. I dont think that those expectations are too great for a player receiving a basketball scholarship from Indiana University 

 

25 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Yeah, I disagree with Dan quite a bit and I think he sometimes says things that stir the pot, however, that commentary was on point.  He summed up everything that has been bothering me this year about this team and he did it from a point of greater knowledge than I possess. 

I am just really disappointed in how things have gone.  I am really hoping that Miller is hearing some of this criticism and takes it constructively, if he plans on sticking around he HAS to do better.  This is his program right now, he needs to take control because right now it feels like the inmates are running the asylum.  Additionally, I agree with Dakich about the assistants, seems like we have a bunch of recruiters but not much in the way of developing that talent once we get it here.

I agree

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7 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Dan likes to stir the pot but what he says in this clip I agree with 100%. I have turned 4 games off this year,not because we were losing but because of the way we play. It has been terrible at times this year.

DD uses the example of Knight criticizing Alford in 87 after the NW game. Steve Alford was a SR with 4 years under RMK. RMK knew he could call out Alford publicly and not affect his confidence. Romeo is a freshman, who may very well be dealing with a more serious hand/wrist injury than he wants known. Will calling him out individually, improve his jump shot? Juwan is the veteran. Juwan has struggled defensively against much bigger players in the BIG. Will calling him out change that physical mismatch?

Steve Lavin described this team as fragile. He noted that CAM has a delicate balancing act between lighting a fire under them while trying to give them confidence. CAM publicly called the team  soft and scared and said that is on him to fix. Probably the right approach to put the focus on the team and him and not individual players, publicly. We'll see.

I agree that effort has been lacking too often. Too many times, missed shots cause them to hang their heads and then get burned on defense. Slow starts have been a problem, much of the season. Their leaders seem to be quiet guys. It seems they have to get punched a bit to respond. Shouldn't be that way, but it is. They've had some games where they had good starts (MD, NW), but then cold shooting stretches have killed them.

As far as the assistants, Ed Schilling was an assistant for four years under Alford at UCLA. If IU had hired Alford instead of CAM, I'm sure he'd be on the staff at IU and DD would think that's great. Ostrom was an assistant at Dayton for six years under Archie. Did pretty well. Makes sense for continuity to bring him to IU. Ostrom worked seven years under Billy Donovan. Schilling and Flint were both good enough to be assistants for Calipari in their careers.

I would note this from a 2016 Dayton Daily New article about Wright State:

To qualify, Dakich does have some history with WSU. He was brought in for an interview for the Raiders job before Ed Schilling was hired in 1997. At the time, he and Grant, then an assistant AD, didn’t hit it off.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/college-basketball/tom-archdeacon-wright-state-firing-donlon-angers-many/KF1uHy2XpMAqJojXlrFd8K/

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I have no idea what the answer is or I would pay a visit to CAM and let him know. Whatever the approach right now is, it is not hitting home with the players. We were making fun of Matt Painter for throwing players under the bus but his team seems to be trending in the right direction. I hate Purdue as much as anyone here not name HTD😀 I do not think that we have given Painter enough credit. We don't need to I understand that but I would much rather get beat in the sweet 16 vs watching it from home. Thats just my opinion. Gotta be in it to win it and at our rate we are not going to be anywhere close unless CAM starts pulling the correct strings. I am the eternal optimist but that optimism is running on fumes. 

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