Ohio St post game thread

[ArchieBall13]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

If I could build a team by combining IU’s roster with each of those teams’ rosters you mentioned, the starting lineups would go like...

IU-Nebraska: Three of Nebraska’s starters, two from IU

Watson

Langford

Palmer

Morgan

Roby

Note: Copeland and Allen from Nebraska would probably be the first two off the bench (yes, ahead of Phinisee, Smith or Durham)

IU-Northwestern: 3 from NW, 2 from IU

Law

Langford

Taylor

Morgan

Parsons

Note: I’m a big Phinisee fan, but he’s not ready yet to be leading a top half Big Ten team, so I’m basically going with no point guard here. 

IU-Rutgers: 3 from IU, 2 from Rutgers

Baker

Langford

Durham

Morgan

 

Omoyuri (sp?)

Note: Only picked Durham because I had too pick someone. Not that I don’t like Durham, I really do, but as a sophomore he’s not a starter on a really good Big Ten team. 

To me this analysis kind of begs the question. Naturally you are going to grab players at a higher rate from teams that are winning more often. For me, it still leaves me with a lot of questions and concerned for why we are performing at a lower level than the rest of the big ten. You can pin it on Crean's players he left Archie with, but it really comes down to at what point do you start transferring the blame over to Archie. I'll caveat that with, it sounds like you may have been a former ball player yourself and know the game better than me. Just sharing my initial reactions though.

[IU Scott]

12 minutes ago, hoosiermd said:

Just wanted to say that I completely agree with that. 2 years isn't enough. The problem is that the patience mantra is thin. IU basketball hasn't been relevant outside of the 2002 run since 1994. That's closing in on 30 years. We are 1-9 in our last 10 including a 7-game losing streak. We've lost our last 4 home games. If Michigan St. didn't have a horrific time shooting FT then we'd be 0-10 in our last 10. Patience was wearing thin 15 years ago. 

I understand that but you can't put that on Archie and only give him two years because others have not been able to turn it around.

[Steubenhoosier]

7 minutes ago, ArchieBall13 said:

Just browsed another board called the Hoosier.com for the fun of it. I can confirm this board is operating at a higher level. 

Higher level is a subjective opinion 

[hoosiermd]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I understand that but you can't put that on Archie and only give him two years because others have not been able to turn it around.

Agree, but the reverse is also true. You can't blindly say be patient simply because it worked out at Duke.

[IUCrazy2]

1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

So, patience is wearing thin. So what?

Davis created his own legacy of being over his head during his tenure.

Sampson only took 2 years to fill the program with kids who had no reason being in college and valued partying over being a “student athlete.”

Crean was given 7 years to show that he wasn’t the guy to take IU where this fan base wants.

Archie has been here a year and a half. Not his fault what went on the previous 15.   Give him some time to earn respect or not based on what he does, not on what the 3 previous guts failed to do 

That's the thing you are not acknowledging.  He is being judged based on what he does.  If he was doing well right now we would not be having this discussion.  What the prior 18 years have to do with the conversation is that we literally have gone through this 3 times (Dakich does not count) in that timeframe and at each and every point during that timeframe there were fans saying, "just give it time, you expect too much..." and in each case they were dead wrong.  So Archie's leash is going to be shorter.

If the product on the floor improves next year, we all shut up.  There is complaining now because this year has been an unmitigated disaster and a step back, there is no denying that.

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Higher level is a subjective opinion 

Really this board is so much better because on other boards if you disagree with a certain crowd then they make it personal against those posters.  On this board you can disagree with others but they don't call out posters and call them out

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, hoosiermd said:

Agree, but the reverse is also true. You can't blindly say be patient simply because it worked out at Duke.

I just think nay coach should be given 4 years no matter what to get his team full of his own players.  Listening to national media and they have said the same thing and thinks our fan base are idiots to be even thinking about firing Archie.

[Steubenhoosier]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

That's the thing you are not acknowledging.  He is being judged based on what he does.  If he was doing well right now we would not be having this discussion.  What the prior 18 years have to do with the conversation is that we literally have gone through this 3 times (Dakich does not count) in that timeframe and at each and every point during that timeframe their were fans saying, "just give it time, you expect too much..." and in each case they were dead wrong.  So Archie's leash is going to be shorter.

If the product on the floor i.proves next year, we all shut up.  There is complaining now because this year has been an unmitigated disaster and a step back, there is no denying that.

And that’s what I am saying. Why should his leash be shorter?

Why should he be judged on playing kids he didn’t recruit?

Why shouldn’t this fan base show some kind of intelligence and realize that he needs time to turn things around?

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

I just think nay coach should be given 4 years no matter what to get his team full of his own players.  Listening to national media and they have said the same thing and thinks our fan base are idiots to be even thinking about firing Archie.

let me clarify that if the coach plays by the rules he should get 4 years/  Also I was not for the Archie hire and wanted Marshall but I am not going to throw him under the bus after two years because I did not like the hire.

[Steubenhoosier]

33 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I would think Peegs would be a better board for the coaching staff apologists right now.  The consensus among Rabjohns, Snow, and their minions is that IU’s roster is so bad that anyone who expects the team to win another game this season is a braindead moron.

So, you say that you are about 60 and from Ft Wayne.

Hope I haven’t run into you at the local Alumni Club meetings 

[CapnRon]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I just think nay coach should be given 4 years no matter what to get his team full of his own players.  Listening to national media and they have said the same thing and thinks our fan base are idiots to be even thinking about firing Archie.

Exactly.  You can complain about a coach without calling for him to be fired in year 2.  I thought we had smart fans, but they are just getting disrespectful, and hurting the integrity of the program themselves at this point.  It's really disappointing. 

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, CapnRon said:

Exactly.  You can complain about a coach without calling for him to be fired in year 2.  I thought we had smart fans, but they are just getting disrespectful, and hurting the integrity of the program themselves at this point.  It's really disappointing. 

It is definitely not the fan base I use to be proud of

[hoosiermd]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

I just think nay coach should be given 4 years no matter what to get his team full of his own players.  Listening to national media and they have said the same thing and thinks our fan base are idiots to be even thinking about firing Archie.

The only point where I "sort of" disagree with you (and that's a very soft disagree!!!) is that I can't help but think things don't happen in a vacuum. Is Archie Miller ready for the big time at a place like Indiana? I don't know. Nobody does, but I think the national perception of Indiana isn't the same of what our fanbase's expectations are. I could care less about what Seth Davis thinks about what Indiana fans should find acceptable. How many times did we listen to Jay Bilas on ESPN tell Indiana fans how grateful we should be to have Tom Crean as our head coach? I could be VERY WRONG to say this (I don't think I am), but the national media hates Indiana. They think we has a fanbase are nuts and that Indiana should be jumping head over heels to make it to Sweet 16s. I cannot imagine that being acceptable to a place like UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina or Duke. Whether the national media wants to realize it or not, we are in the same boat as those 5 teams. 

As far as the vacuum is concerned, my only problem with patience is what happens while we wait. Take the Eric Musselman at Nevada. In the 3 years before Musselman got to Reno, Nevada went 36-58. Nevada went 9-22 the year before Musselman got there. In his first season Musselman improved Nevada from 9-22 to 24-14!!! Year 2 they were 28-7. Year 3 they were 29-8. This year they are 23-1. I'm not saying Musselman is the next Dean Smith and clearly this isn't apples to apples because it's not like he's headed this turnaround for a team in the Big 10 or ACC, but Nevada isn't a destination school. Somebody is going to pick Musselman up and whoever does might be very lucky.

That's my only gripe with the patience thing. We've missed out on a TON of coaches because we were spending time on Tom Crean, Mike Davis & Kelvin Sampson. I want to quit doing that. I hope Archie is the guy though and I agree that 2-years is hard, but that leash is going to keep getting shorter EVERY time the IU administration makes yet another bad hire.

[IUCrazy2]

7 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

And that’s what I am saying. Why should his leash be shorter?

Why should he be judged on playing kids he didn’t recruit?

Why shouldn’t this fan base show some kind of intelligence and realize that he needs time to turn things around?

Because many of us are of the opinion that you kind of have an idea what you are going to get by the end of year 3.  No one on this board that I have seen is saying fire him now, they are saying if we get a third year of this, there should not be a fourth.

[Snackdaddy]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

let me clarify that if the coach plays by the rules he should get 4 years/  Also I was not for the Archie hire and wanted Marshall but I am not going to throw him under the bus after two years because I did not like the hire.

I agree with this, IU SCOTT. I’m sure its been repeated ad nauseum, but the type of player Archie needs to be successful is not the same type of guy that Crean was looking for and not many zebras can change their stripes.  Also, i hear a lot of people that want great talent mixed with solid upperclassmen. These same people call for Miller’s head after a loss. You cant get to this if you cut bait after two years. 

With that said, i do scratch my head at some things the coach does, and he definitely shouldn’t be immune from criticism.

[StLHoosier]

3 hours ago, jefftheref said:

There is talent on this team but no basketball IQ. They are not good shooters, not physical, not mentally tough and not fundamentally sound.

You hit the nail on the head.  Me and a coworker talk about this at work all of the time.  There are so many times during the games that there is a lazy or terrible pass, someone can’t catch a simple bounce pass, someone tries to take someone off of the dribble and dribbles it off of their foot, comes down and tries to play hero ball and jack a 3 with 25 seconds left on the clock.  You can have all of the talent/ability in the world, but if you don’t know how to really play basketball, that talent isn’t going to get you anywhere.  We have plenty of athletes on the team, but very few basketball players.  If these kids don’t have that instilled in them by now, theres really no hope.  That instinct is engrained from an early age, as long as you’re taught the right way.  It’s fundamentals and situational basketball.

You can try to practice it all you want, but I’m game situations, when the pressure is on, you go back to what you know.  IMO, this is what keeps happening during these games when we get it down to a 1 possession game, only to turn it over or take an ill advised shot.

[Bowhunter]

47 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I would think Peegs would be a better board for the coaching staff apologists right now.  The consensus among Rabjohns, Snow, and their minions is that IU’s roster is so bad that anyone who expects the team to win another game this season is a braindead moron.

It’s s bad roster that one earlier in the season and knocked off MSU at their place. There is more going on than lack of talent! 

[FW_Hoosier]

6 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

So, you say that you are about 60 and from Ft Wayne.

Hope I haven’t run into you at the local Alumni Club meetings 

Must be confusing me with someone else... You’re a little more than 30 years off (I’m one of the “instant gratification” millennials ruining the fanbase).  It’s been a while since I’ve lived in Fort Wayne, so I haven’t been able to make any Alumni Club meetings yet, but I’ll make sure to let you know if I ever do so you can steer clear.

[StLHoosier]

8 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

No one on this board that I have seen is saying fire him now.....

Are we reading the same board? 

[Steubenhoosier]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Because many of us are of the opinion that you kind of have an idea what you are going to get by the end of year 3.  No one on this board that I have seen is saying fire him now, they are saying if we get a third year of this, there should not be a fourth.

So, not even done with year 2 and you are already projecting into the future because you “kind of have an idea .”

I get it. There is a good part of this board who think that change happens and as long as it takes social media to determine it should. For a lot of people here, two years must seem like an eternity. 

I don’t want to see this type of team in the candy stripes anymore than the rest of you. But I am also willing to look beyond my nose and realize that good things might come from being a little patient

[StLHoosier]

2 minutes ago, Bowhunter said:

It’s s bad roster that one earlier in the season and knocked off MSU at their place. There is more going on than lack of talent! 

This is what I believe as well.  The team last year didn’t look nearly this bad, and the offense looked much better last year, in terms of movement and spacing.  We couldn’t hit shots last year either, but that’s besides the point.

[BADGERVOL]

11 minutes ago, Snackdaddy said:

I agree with this, IU SCOTT. I’m sure its been repeated ad nauseum, but the type of player Archie needs to be successful is not the same type of guy that Crean was looking for and not many zebras can change their stripes.  Also, i hear a lot of people that want great talent mixed with solid upperclassmen. These same people call for Miller’s head after a loss. You cant get to this if you cut bait after two years. 

With that said, i do scratch my head at some things the coach does, and he definitely shouldn’t be immune from criticism.

This. I’m so bewildered by this team. 

[IU Scott]

16 minutes ago, hoosiermd said:

The only point where I "sort of" disagree with you (and that's a very soft disagree!!!) is that I can't help but think things don't happen in a vacuum. Is Archie Miller ready for the big time at a place like Indiana? I don't know. Nobody does, but I think the national perception of Indiana isn't the same of what our fanbase's expectations are. I could care less about what Seth Davis thinks about what Indiana fans should find acceptable. How many times did we listen to Jay Bilas on ESPN tell Indiana fans how grateful we should be to have Tom Crean as our head coach? I could be VERY WRONG to say this (I don't think I am), but the national media hates Indiana. They think we has a fanbase are nuts and that Indiana should be jumping head over heels to make it to Sweet 16s. I cannot imagine that being acceptable to a place like UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina or Duke. Whether the national media wants to realize it or not, we are in the same boat as those 5 teams. 

As far as the vacuum is concerned, my only problem with patience is what happens while we wait. Take the Eric Musselman at Nevada. In the 3 years before Musselman got to Reno, Nevada went 36-58. Nevada went 9-22 the year before Musselman got there. In his first season Musselman improved Nevada from 9-22 to 24-14!!! Year 2 they were 28-7. Year 3 they were 29-8. This year they are 23-1. I'm not saying Musselman is the next Dean Smith and clearly this isn't apples to apples because it's not like he's headed this turnaround for a team in the Big 10 or ACC, but Nevada isn't a destination school. Somebody is going to pick Musselman up and whoever does might be very lucky.

That's my only gripe with the patience thing. We've missed out on a TON of coaches because we were spending time on Tom Crean, Mike Davis & Kelvin Sampson. I want to quit doing that. I hope Archie is the guy though and I agree that 2-years is hard, but that leash is going to keep getting shorter EVERY time the IU administration makes yet another bad hire.

Also don't you think it is a lot easier turning Nevada around since they  play in a lot weaker conference.  What Musselman has done well is bring in a roster full of transfers who are now 5th year seniors and they have a lot of experience,

 

As for missing coaches if we are patient I feel the other way is that if we fire a coach after two years you won't get any great candidates

[rico]

4 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

This is what I believe as well.  The team last year didn’t look nearly this bad, and the offense looked much better last year, in terms of movement and spacing.  We couldn’t hit shots last year either, but that’s besides the point.

And those were Crean's players.......9-9 in conference.

[BeerBQ]

4 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Must be confusing me with someone else... You’re a little more than 30 years off (I’m one of the “instant gratification” millennials ruining the fanbase).  It’s been a while since I’ve lived in Fort Wayne, so I haven’t been able to make any Alumni Club meetings yet, but I’ll make sure to let you know if I ever do so you can steer clear.

Did you go to high school in Ft Wayne? I, too, am about 30 years away from 60 (I'm in my 90's dws) and grew up in the Fort.