Exposing Archie's outdated offensive ideology.

[southsidehoosier]

55 minutes ago, jefftheref said:

Why is he wearing capris?

To accentuate his crocs

[FKIM01]

Sorry...completely disagree this is a system issue.  If it was a system issue, IU would not have games like Marquette and MSU this year.  The answer is simply this...IU shoots very poorly from outside.  If you look at the comparative shooting percentages, IU should shoot a lot less 3's than they do.  32.7% from distance equates to 49.05% from 2.  Since IU is shooting 54.1% from 2, the numbers argue for shooting more from close range.

Another year of installing the offense won't hurt but get some outside shooters who can bring up the average to at least 37% and the "system issues" will vanish.  

[IowaHoosierFan]

i hate our offense.  I hate the slow offense win by defense mantra.  I hated it when Lickliter at Iowa ran it out here when i watched with friends.  I would hate it even if we were 22-4 right now.  I would be happy we were winning but i would hate the style of play.  If this is what i can expect from CAM and IU basketball for the next 20 years, no thank you.  Its not entertaining to watch.  

[IowaHoosierFan]

And as a rule, can we please stop using Duke and Coach K as a measuring tool.  If i have to read one more response that says well Duke does it this and blah blah blah.  No one is duke, no one is coach K.  Please use a more reasonable comparison team.  I don't know what team, but do some research and find one

[hoosier_exotics]

2 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

Sorry...completely disagree this is a system issue.  If it was a system issue, IU would not have games like Marquette and MSU this year.  The answer is simply this...IU shoots very poorly from outside.  If you look at the comparative shooting percentages, IU should shoot a lot less 3's than they do.  32.7% from distance equates to 49.05% from 2.  Since IU is shooting 54.1% from 2, the numbers argue for shooting more from close range.

Another year of installing the offense won't hurt but get some outside shooters who can bring up the average to at least 37% and the "system issues" will vanish.  

I agree with this. Unfortunately we suck so bad from deep, the closer shots are contested due to defense sagging in the middle

[IU Scott]

43 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

i hate our offense.  I hate the slow offense win by defense mantra.  I hated it when Lickliter at Iowa ran it out here when i watched with friends.  I would hate it even if we were 22-4 right now.  I would be happy we were winning but i would hate the style of play.  If this is what i can expect from CAM and IU basketball for the next 20 years, no thank you.  Its not entertaining to watch.  

A win is a win so who cares how you get there.  I would rather win 48-45 than lose 98-95 but I guess you are more of the crowd that wants glitz and glamour over substance.

[FKIM01]

38 minutes ago, hoosier_exotics said:

I agree with this. Unfortunately we suck so bad from deep, the closer shots are contested due to defense sagging in the middle

Without a doubt.  If I'm looking at 54.1% vs. 32.7%, I'm sagging and packing the lane until you prove me wrong.

[FKIM01]

47 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

i hate our offense.  I hate the slow offense win by defense mantra.  I hated it when Lickliter at Iowa ran it out here when i watched with friends.  I would hate it even if we were 22-4 right now.  I would be happy we were winning but i would hate the style of play.  If this is what i can expect from CAM and IU basketball for the next 20 years, no thank you.  Its not entertaining to watch.  

For me, it depends on what game you're watching.  I loved our offense against Marquette and MSU.  Hated it against OSU.  If the team hits shots, it's enjoyable for me to watch.  Not so much when they can't throw it in the ocean.

[rico]

32 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Without a doubt.  If I'm looking at 54.1% vs. 32.7%, I'm sagging and packing the lane until you prove me wrong.

Or you prove it from the line!!!!!!!  LOL

[CapnRon]

This topic is titled like an Outside the Lines report or something lol.  Did we expose it yet?

[BobSaccamanno]

The roster is a mess right now.  We can all agree to that. 

But, you still have one of the best prospects to come out in the history of Indiana high schools.  He might be a freshman but he’s not a normal freshman. He’s an impact player.   You still have a senior warrior in Morgan.  

I am pulling for Archie big time but he’s not immune to criticism.  I agree with Adegenerate that modern basketball uses the three ball or the post bucket.  That’s efficient basketball.  The long, mid range shot is not efficient ball.   Now, if you look at Archie’s history, he doesn’t seem to have the volume you want from three.  Here, his recruiting doesn’t seem to prioritize the lights out shooter.  But, I’m not panicked that Archie doesn’t get it.  If it’s two years from now, and we are still going 4-15 from three every game, then we may want to sound alarm bells because this season will be part of the data.  

The other thing that’s troubling is you cannot let this team lose nine out of ten.  This isn’t the crap roster that Crean had where Pritchard (basically Robbie Eggers) was the best player.  There’s Morgan and there’s Langford.  There’s enough talent here to have beaten Rutgers,  Northwestern, and OSU at least.  So, then you’re 4-6 instead of 1-9 in that stretch.  Still not great but at least understandable.

As an example, Archie needs to do a better job getting the bleeding to stop when these ridiculous 22-0 runs get going.  

Secondly, Archie can improve adapting to his roster.   You win some of these games if you stop being vanilla and put the players into different situations.  The same ole, same ole has not worked.  I’ve said it before but I’d turn Romeo loose.  Put the ball in his hands, have him run everything and let Green, Durham, and Phinisee come off the wings.  Justin needs to be contained. 

We are seeing OJT with Archie. It’s unfortunate but it is what it is.  The question is whether he’s stubborn or feels limited with roster issues. But at a minimum he should be trying different things with the offense.  You can’t let your team lose this many in a stretch.  

It is one thing to blame the players, but that doesn’t hold water when you go 1-9.  That’s nuts.    Archie needs to get that.  

 

 

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

The roster is a mess right now.  We can all agree to that. 

But, you still have one of the best prospects to come out in the history of Indiana high schools.  He might be a freshman but he’s not a normal freshman. He’s an impact player.   You still have a senior warrior in Morgan.  

I am pulling for Archie big time but he’s not immune to criticism.  I agree with Adegenerate that modern basketball uses the three ball or the post bucket.  That’s efficient basketball.  The long, mid range shot is not efficient ball.   Now, if you look at Archie’s history, he doesn’t seem to have the volume you want from three.  Here, his recruiting doesn’t seem to prioritize the lights out shooter.  But, I’m not panicked that Archie doesn’t get it.  If it’s two years from now, and we are still going 4-15 from three every game, then we may want to sound alarm bells because this season will be part of the data.  

The other thing that’s troubling.  You can’t let this team lose 9 of ten.  This isn’t the crap roster that Crean had where Pritchard (basically Robbie Eggers) was the best player.  There’s Morgan and there’s Langford.  There’s enough talent here to have beaten Rutgers,  Northwestern, and OSU at least.  So, then you’re 4-6 instead of 1-9.  Still not great but at least understandable.

Archie needs to do a better job getting the bleeding to stop when these ridiculous 22-0 runs get going.  

Secondly, Archie can improve adapting to his roster.  I’ve said it before but I’d turn Romeo loose.  Put the ball in his hands, have him run everything and let Green, Durham, and Phinisee come off the wings.  Justin needs to be contained.  

We are seeing OJT with Archie. It’s unfortunate but it is what it is.  The question is whether he’s stubborn with roster issues. But at a minimum he should be trying different things with the offense.  You can’t let your team lose this many in a stretch.  

It is one thing to blame the players, but that doesn’t hold water when you go 1-9.  That’s nuts.    

 

 

To me comments like mid range shots are inefficient is why analytics is killing basketball watch teamsith Cheaney, Henderson and Anderson and tell me how inefficient those  foot open shots were.  I would rather hit 6-10 uncontested md range shots than 4-10 3 point shots because that is two more missed shots that can turn into fast break points for the opponent.

[BobSaccamanno]

It’s simple math, though. A layup or dunk is as high percentage as it gets. So, you want those.  The seventeen footer is not a high percentage shot.  A three is not either, but you get the extra point.  Those extra points make a difference.  There are NBA teams striving to launch 40-50 threes.  They get great spacing and ball movement and it’s beautiful ball to watch IMO.  

I think IU should try to get to at least thirty threes a game with an improved roster.  

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

It’s simple math, though. A layup or dunk is as high percentage as it gets. So, you want those.  The seventeen footer is not a high percentage shot.  A three is not either, but you get the extra point.  Those extra points make a difference.  There are NBA teams striving to launch 40-50 threes.  They get great spacing and ball movement and it’s beautiful ball to watch IMO.  

I think IU should try to get to at least thirty threes a game with an improved roster.  

The open 15 foot shot from the lane or the baselin is the easiest shot to it if you practice it.  I will go by what I see from  te 40 years of watching basketball over a bunch of computer geeks that  probably never played the game.  What I find beautiful to watch is seeing guys move without the ball and coming off screens and taking the open shot instead of turning that shot down to take a contested 3 or layu

[ATX_sig]

32 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me comments like mid range shots are inefficient is why analytics is killing basketball watch teamsith Cheaney, Henderson and Anderson and tell me how inefficient those  foot open shots were.  I would rather hit 6-10 uncontested md range shots than 4-10 3 point shots because that is two more missed shots that can turn into fast break points for the opponent.

Maybe this is why we have analytics.  Go provide a list of those who are shooting 60% from mid range and then provide a list of those who shooting 40% from the arc. Which list is bigger?

[rico]

39 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me comments like mid range shots are inefficient is why analytics is killing basketball watch teamsith Cheaney, Henderson and Anderson and tell me how inefficient those  foot open shots were.  I would rather hit 6-10 uncontested md range shots than 4-10 3 point shots because that is two more missed shots that can turn into fast break points for the opponent.

Let's back up the bus here.  Missing a 3 can turn into fast break points for the opponent?  But a mid-range jumper doesn't?  Explain

[IUwins0708]

Just now, rico said:

Let's back up the bus here.  Missing a 3 can turn into fast break points for the opponent?  But a mid-range jumper doesn't?  Explain

He’s saying that’s 2 more missed shots that could lead to fast break points.  Saying both can 

[rico]

12 minutes ago, ATX_sig said:

Maybe this is why we have analytics.  Go provide a list of those who are shooting 60% from mid range and then provide a list of those who shooting 40% from the arc. Which list is bigger?

Honestly, I would love to see that list.

[rico]

1 minute ago, IUwins0708 said:

He’s saying that’s 2 more missed shots that could lead to fast break points.  Saying both can 

2 more missed shots could lead to anything....it could lead to 2 more offensive rebounds.

[IUwins0708]

1 minute ago, rico said:

2 more missed shots could lead to anything....it could lead to 2 more offensive rebounds.

I agree but I think that’s what he was saying.  I can see it working both ways.

[CauseThatsMyDJ]

1 hour ago, CapnRon said:

This topic is titled like an Outside the Lines report or something lol.  Did we expose it yet?

It appears that the opposite has actually happened.  

[rico]

1 minute ago, IUwins0708 said:

I agree but I think that’s what he was saying.  I can see it working both ways.

I can it working in many of ways.  Too many variables.  

[Leathernecks]

I have some similar concerns with our offense.

1. It looks like our shooters are never confident.  The only times I see them have any kind of confidence is when they are playing freely and not thinking.  Big games with nothing to lose, Green with the 30 footer yesterday, a few inbounds plays we've run to get Rob a 3, Romeo coming off the dribble late in games.  Other than that, it's like, oh crap, I'm open.  I guess I should shoot it, but I hope I don't miss.  I think it is pretty clear that Archie emphasizes something other than high volume 3s, and I think it is pretty clear that has had a negative affect on the confidence of our shooters.
2. Can somebody please explain to me why we don't emphasize transition offense?  At this point, I'd even take a crappy explanation.  We don't have a ton of size, and we have an elite finisher in Romeo, and a guy in Smith who is an elite athlete. Perfect recipe to get out and run.  I remember a stat from a few weeks ago that showed the previous 5 games, and the transition points were an average of about 3 or 4.  The only semi logical reason is lack of depth, but you're better off playing to your strength and sitting your best players an extra 3 minutes a game than playing to your weaknesses.
3. I said last year that I was worried that Archie is a 1980's coach.  I think part of today's game is being a successful, high volume 3 point shooting team.  There are exceptions, but the good exceptions are usually the ones who have unreal talent (see: Duke).  I like that we're building our defense, but I wonder if some of our behind the scenes trouble indirectly stems from our lack of offense and the emotional toll it takes on the guys.  Kids don't want to play in a system that is a lot of work on defense and an organized, non-free flowing offense.  That isn't what most successful teams do anymore.

[NotIThatLives]

47 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

Can somebody please explain to me why we don't emphasize transition offense?  At this point, I'd even take a crappy explanation.  We don't have a ton of size, and we have an elite finisher in Romeo, and a guy in Smith who is an elite athlete. Perfect recipe to get out and run.  I remember a stat from a few weeks ago that showed the previous 5 games, and the transition points were an average of about 3 or 4.  The only semi logical reason is lack of depth, but you're better off playing to your strength and sitting your best players an extra 3 minutes a game than playing to your weaknesses

I'll take a stab at this one.  

Nope, no good explanation.  A few weeks ago someone pulled a bio of CAM with a description of his coaching philosophy.  It said he utilizes a Phoenix fast break and a Carolina transition.  Nope and nope.  The only thing I can think of is that he reigned it in after the guys dropped 24 turnovers,  I forget when.  

[FKIM01]

7 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I'll take a stab at this one.  

Nope, no good explanation.  A few weeks ago someone pulled a bio of CAM with a description of his coaching philosophy.  It said he utilizes a Phoenix fast break and a Carolina transition.  Nope and nope.  The only thing I can think of is that he reigned it in after the guys dropped 24 turnovers,  I forget when.  

That's probably why.  I suspect he'll gradually turn up the wick when he gets more confidence in our ball handlers.