Challenging two current narratives

[Fundamentals]

Friends of HSN:

Wanted to speak to two pervasive themes from recent posts. 1) fans are the reason for this mess, or unreasonable; 2) Archie is the problem. 

Regarding fans, IU has had, and always will have, an engaged, rabid following.  Remember, in 49 states...?  To expect fans not to experience frustration in the midst of this current freefall, particularly with the 12-2 start, is to ignore part of what makes Indiana Basketball what it is.  Losing stinks, and I’ve yet to encounter a fan base in any sport who doesn’t get twisted when their team is struggling.  

 

Regarding Archie, the man needs 4 years minimum before his product can be judged.  The impatience is really tied to the bumbling of the previous coach’s term, who was here about 6 years too long.  In his 3rd season at Dayton, below how his team played.  I’m going down on the Archie ship.  He can and will get it done.  There is no doubt in my mind.  Patience is an annoying concept when things need to change, but Archie has the stones to clean house and revitalize the team attitude this off-season.  Just because he doesn’t whimper to the media, doesn’t mean changes are not coming.  Hang with Archie, friends.

 

 

[StLHoosier]

I watched about 8 minutes of that, and here are a few quick thoughts.

1) The ball movement was quick and decisive.  Something that has not been seen with our team.

2) There was plenty of off ball movement and screening, and the floor spacing was night and day compared to our team.

3) The defense was being played at a high level with inferior “talent”.  They were closing out properly and no one was getting lost.  They were communicating extremely well too.

[Artesian_86]

16 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

I watched about 8 minutes of that, and here are a few quick thoughts.

1) The ball movement was quick and decisive.  Something that has not been seen with our team.

2) There was plenty of off ball movement and screening, and the floor spacing was night and day compared to our team.

3) The defense was being played at a high level with inferior “talent”.  They were closing out properly and no one was getting lost.  They were communicating extremely well too.

I saw the same thing to. I was really impressed with the floor spacing, court awareness and hustle. That team looks like a well oiled machine and not to mention, well coached! That team would eat this current team alive!!

[cohete15]

29 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

closing out properly and no one was getting lost

Outside of our shooting...this is our biggest problem. It ruins EVERY effort put forth by everyone on the team in the defensive possession when we don't close out properly on shooters. Hands down defense, the half a$$ lunge at the shooter because we got smoked by losing our guy. It's our momentum killer. We will play really good defense for 20 seconds, 25 seconds...then someone gets lost, or caught with their hands down, and we're toast. Story of the season...make a run offensively...get lazy 1 time on defense...get a 3 dropped on your head...crowd sits down, bench sits down and you just let your teammates down who defended their butts off for the whole possession.

[FW_Hoosier]

52 points isn’t going to win you many tournament games...

[IowaHoosierFan]

Dayton is not in the B1G conference.  I don't care what he accomplished at Dayton anymore.  He isn't playing in a conference where 1 maybe 2 teams make it to the Tournament.  This is the Big 10 where 7 to 9 teams can make it because of how difficult the schedules are of these schools.  He has talent on this team.  Does he know how to use it, so far the answer is no.  Which means he doesn't know how to adjust to the talent he has and can only work with a certain type of player.  He isn't going to be getting Dayton level players here.  He is going to be getting 4 and 5 star players who he is going to have to learn to adjust to or be a better teacher to get them to fit into his.  He has 2 years to make most of these players fit his system.  Its not working.  Next year is probably going to be about the same.  If after 3 years he has won an average 15 games with no improvement, he should be let go.  But he won't.  They decided to give him a 7 year 3.5 million dollar contract which means he is here for 5 because they can't afford to buy him out.  I will eat crow if he becomes the next Great IU coach but i just don't buy it anymore.  I don't think he has the flexibility to make it in this league.  I truly hope i am wrong.  I truly hope this isn't the style of basketball we get for the next 20 years.  I truly hope we win another game this season because if we don't, i think he should be fired.

[13th&Jackson]

32 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Dayton is not in the B1G conference.  I don't care what he accomplished at Dayton anymore.  He isn't playing in a conference where 1 maybe 2 teams make it to the Tournament.  This is the Big 10 where 7 to 9 teams can make it because of how difficult the schedules are of these schools.  He has talent on this team.  Does he know how to use it, so far the answer is no.  Which means he doesn't know how to adjust to the talent he has and can only work with a certain type of player.  He isn't going to be getting Dayton level players here.  He is going to be getting 4 and 5 star players who he is going to have to learn to adjust to or be a better teacher to get them to fit into his.  He has 2 years to make most of these players fit his system.  Its not working.  Next year is probably going to be about the same.  If after 3 years he has won an average 15 games with no improvement, he should be let go.  But he won't.  They decided to give him a 7 year 3.5 million dollar contract which means he is here for 5 because they can't afford to buy him out.  I will eat crow if he becomes the next Great IU coach but i just don't buy it anymore.  I don't think he has the flexibility to make it in this league.  I truly hope i am wrong.  I truly hope this isn't the style of basketball we get for the next 20 years.  I truly hope we win another game this season because if we don't, i think he should be fired.

In 2014, when Dayton reached the Elite 8, the Atlantic 10 had six NCAAT bids, the same as the Big 10 and the ACC. Only the Big 12 had more with 7, but no Big 12 teams made it past the S16. Nor did any from the ACC or Big East.

Conference	Bids	Record	Win %	R64	R32	S16	E8	F4	CG	NC
American	4	9–3	.750	4	3	2	1	1	1	1
SEC	3	12–3	.800	3	3	3	2	2	1	–
Big Ten	6	10–6	.625	5	3	3	3	1	–	–
Pac-12	6	8–6	.571	6	4	3	1	–	–	–
Atlantic 10	6	4–6	.400	6	2	1	1	–	–	–
Big 12	7	6–7	.462	7	4	2	–	–	–	–
ACC	6	6–6	.500	6	4	1	–	–	–	–
Mountain West	2	2–2	.500	2	1	1	–	–	–	–
Big East	4	2–4	.333	3	2	–	–	–	–	–
WCC	2	1–2	.333	2	1	–	–	–	–	–
Atlantic Sun	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
Ivy	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
MVC	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
Southland	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
Summit	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
America East	1	1–1	.500	1	–	–	–	–	–	–
Big West	1	1–1	.500	1	–	–	–	–	–	–

The A-10 regularly gets 3 or more teams in the NCAAT. It isn't a one-bid league like say the MVC. Since Wichita State was in the MVC  for most of Marshall's tenure, would we be hearing the same argument of IU had hired him instead?

[StLHoosier]

45 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Dayton is not in the B1G conference.  I don't care what he accomplished at Dayton anymore.  He isn't playing in a conference where 1 maybe 2 teams make it to the Tournament.  This is the Big 10 where 7 to 9 teams can make it because of how difficult the schedules are of these schools.  He has talent on this team.  Does he know how to use it, so far the answer is no.  Which means he doesn't know how to adjust to the talent he has and can only work with a certain type of player.  He isn't going to be getting Dayton level players here.  He is going to be getting 4 and 5 star players who he is going to have to learn to adjust to or be a better teacher to get them to fit into his.  He has 2 years to make most of these players fit his system.  Its not working.  Next year is probably going to be about the same.  If after 3 years he has won an average 15 games with no improvement, he should be let go.  But he won't.  They decided to give him a 7 year 3.5 million dollar contract which means he is here for 5 because they can't afford to buy him out.  I will eat crow if he becomes the next Great IU coach but i just don't buy it anymore.  I don't think he has the flexibility to make it in this league.  I truly hope i am wrong.  I truly hope this isn't the style of basketball we get for the next 20 years.  I truly hope we win another game this season because if we don't, i think he should be fired.

Adjust to 4 and 5 Star talent?  One could make a better argument that he had more adjustments to do at Dayton with inferior talent.  When people reference is Dayton success, they’re pretty much referring to his success in the tournament imo.  He beat a lot of the power 5 schools he faced, so that holds a lot of weight.  

The thing that is killing our team, is between their ears.  Some of the kids just aren’t high IQ players, some of the others seem like they would rather be doing something else.  I’ll say it again, we have a bunch of athletes but very few basketball players.  I don’t listen to Dakich, but a friend from work does.  He said when Dan was watching our shoot around before the game, half of the players were paying attention and about half weren’t.  The attitudes of the players isn’t the greatest from what I gather, and I believe a lot of player turnover will occur after this year.

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.

[StLHoosier]

4 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

In 2014, when Dayton reached the Elite 8, the Atlantic 10 had six NCAAT bids, the same as the Big 10 and the ACC. Only the Big 12 had more with 7, but no Big 12 teams made it past the S16. Nor did any from the ACC or Big East.

Conference	Bids	Record	Win %	R64	R32	S16	E8	F4	CG	NC
American	4	9–3	.750	4	3	2	1	1	1	1
SEC	3	12–3	.800	3	3	3	2	2	1	–
Big Ten	6	10–6	.625	5	3	3	3	1	–	–
Pac-12	6	8–6	.571	6	4	3	1	–	–	–
Atlantic 10	6	4–6	.400	6	2	1	1	–	–	–
Big 12	7	6–7	.462	7	4	2	–	–	–	–
ACC	6	6–6	.500	6	4	1	–	–	–	–
Mountain West	2	2–2	.500	2	1	1	–	–	–	–
Big East	4	2–4	.333	3	2	–	–	–	–	–
WCC	2	1–2	.333	2	1	–	–	–	–	–
Atlantic Sun	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
Ivy	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
MVC	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
Southland	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
Summit	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
America East	1	1–1	.500	1	–	–	–	–	–	–
Big West	1	1–1	.500	1	–	–	–	–	–	–

The A-10 regularly gets 3 or more teams in the NCAAT. It isn't a one-bid league like say the MVC. Since Wichita State was in the MVC  for most of Marshall's tenure, would we be hearing the same argument of IU had hired him instead?

Don’t try to bring facts into the conversation....

[milehiiu]

11 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.

We need guys who are not just willing to go after loose balls, but are more intent on throwing a ball going out of bounds off an opponents face, in order to maintain possession.  IU has had guys like that in the past. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

1 minute ago, StLHoosier said:

Don’t try to bring facts into the conversation....

I stand corrected.  I said 1 to 2 a year.  So they average 3.  Doesn't change the fact that i don't think he is doing well adjusting to the B1G. And i will say its easier to coach 3 star kids who have a chip on their shoulder or who are smart basketball players but are not as talented as the 4 and 5 star kids than it is to fit alot of talent on one team.

It doesn't matter what he did at Dayton anymore.  Its what he has done at Indiana.  And what he has done so far is sub par and not up to our standards.  He doesn't make adjustments.  He doesn't try new line-ups.  He does sit players for doing bad things.  he says in interviews he is going to play guys more, and then you don't see them at all.  He won't play Morgan and Davis at the same time.  He keeps playing Fitzner who is so out of his depth that is ridiculous.  He doesn't change anything from half to half or game to game.   I don't even know if we run an actual offense.

What i will say is this, our defense has been much better, other than defending the 3 point line.  And he has done a great job getting Indiana kids to commit to IU over the last 2 recruiting cycles.  And i think he is honestly a nice guy who is as honest as he can.

Much like Coach Crean, we are paying this man 3.5 million a year.  He needs to do better.  I am just tired of watching this crap offense lose game after game to teams we have more talent that and more importantly, losing at home.  We just don't do that.

But nothing i say here will do anything and he is going to be here for at least 5 years so i am just venting because there is nothing else i can do

[FKIM01]

8 hours ago, Artesian_86 said:

I saw the same thing to. I was really impressed with the floor spacing, court awareness and hustle. That team looks like a well oiled machine and not to mention, well coached! That team would eat this current team alive!!

That's IU (except IU will have more natural talent) after a full recruiting cycle...if we can just hang on...

[Hoosierinbham]

11 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

We need guys who are not just willing to go after loose balls, but are more intent on throwing a ball going out of bounds off an opponents face, in order to maintain possession.  IU has had guys like that in the past. 

Any recruits from Jasper available?

[Drroogh]

1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

That's IU (except IU will have more natural talent) after a full recruiting cycle...if we can just hang on...

Seems like there is another 5 page thread saying the O is outdated??

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, 13th&Jackson said:

In 2014, when Dayton reached the Elite 8, the Atlantic 10 had six NCAAT bids, the same as the Big 10 and the ACC. Only the Big 12 had more with 7, but no Big 12 teams made it past the S16. Nor did any from the ACC or Big East.

Conference	Bids	Record	Win %	R64	R32	S16	E8	F4	CG	NC
American	4	9–3	.750	4	3	2	1	1	1	1
SEC	3	12–3	.800	3	3	3	2	2	1	–
Big Ten	6	10–6	.625	5	3	3	3	1	–	–
Pac-12	6	8–6	.571	6	4	3	1	–	–	–
Atlantic 10	6	4–6	.400	6	2	1	1	–	–	–
Big 12	7	6–7	.462	7	4	2	–	–	–	–
ACC	6	6–6	.500	6	4	1	–	–	–	–
Mountain West	2	2–2	.500	2	1	1	–	–	–	–
Big East	4	2–4	.333	3	2	–	–	–	–	–
WCC	2	1–2	.333	2	1	–	–	–	–	–
Atlantic Sun	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
Ivy	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
MVC	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
Southland	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
Summit	1	1–1	.500	1	1	–	–	–	–	–
America East	1	1–1	.500	1	–	–	–	–	–	–
Big West	1	1–1	.500	1	–	–	–	–	–	–

The A-10 regularly gets 3 or more teams in the NCAAT. It isn't a one-bid league like say the MVC. Since Wichita State was in the MVC  for most of Marshall's tenure, would we be hearing the same argument of IU had hired him instead?

Watch out some don't like facts

[FW_Hoosier]

1 hour ago, StLHoosier said:

Adjust to 4 and 5 Star talent?  One could make a better argument that he had more adjustments to do at Dayton with inferior talent.  When people reference is Dayton success, they’re pretty much referring to his success in the tournament imo.  He beat a lot of the power 5 schools he faced, so that holds a lot of weight.  

The thing that is killing our team, is between their ears.  Some of the kids just aren’t high IQ players, some of the others seem like they would rather be doing something else.  I’ll say it again, we have a bunch of athletes but very few basketball players.  I don’t listen to Dakich, but a friend from work does.  He said when Dan was watching our shoot around before the game, half of the players were paying attention and about half weren’t.  The attitudes of the players isn’t the greatest from what I gather, and I believe a lot of player turnover will occur after this year.

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.

With the talk of Archie’s tournament success at Dayton, I went back and checked it out for the first time since before we hired him.

2013-2014

W vs. 6 OSU 60-59

W vs. 3 Syracuse 55-53

W vs. 10 Stanford 82-72

L vs. 1 Florida 52-62

2014-2015

W vs. 11 Boise State 56-55

W vs. 6 Providence 66-53

L vs. 3 Oklahoma 66-72

2015-2016

L vs. 10 Syracuse 51-70

2016-2017

L vs. 10 Wichita State 58-64

Small sample size, but failing to score more than 60 points in 6/9 tournament games, and only scoring more than 70 in one game (against Stanford) doesn’t make me feel very optimistic about the offense even when it’s being executed correctly.

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, milehiiu said:

We need guys who are not just willing to go after loose balls, but are more intent on throwing a ball going out of bounds off an opponents face, in order to maintain possession.  IU has had guys like that in the past. 

We need more players like Forrester who came back in after the game to work on his individual game

[Brass Cannon]

11 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

With the talk of Archie’s tournament success at Dayton, I went back and checked it out for the first time since before we hired him.

2013-2014

W vs. 6 OSU 60-59

W vs. 3 Syracuse 55-53

W vs. 10 Stanford 82-72

L vs. 1 Florida 52-62

2014-2015

W vs. 11 Boise State 56-55

W vs. 6 Providence 66-53

L vs. 3 Oklahoma 66-72

2015-2016

L vs. 10 Syracuse 51-70

2016-2017

L vs. 10 Wichita State 58-64

Small sample size, but failing to score more than 60 points in 6/9 tournament games, and only scoring more than 70 in one game (against Stanford) doesn’t make me feel very optimistic about the offense even when it’s being executed correctly.

UConn won it a few years ago holding their final 3 opponents all under 55 points and not scoring 64. 

The issue that so many of these slow teams is that they have to have a lead because they aren’t built for a comeback. But there’s no reason you can’t win it all

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

UConn won it a few years ago holding their final 3 opponents all under 55 points and not scoring 64. 

The issue that so many of these slow teams is that they have to have a lead because they aren’t built for a comeback. But there’s no reason you can’t win it all

It also seems like a lot of tournament games end up being half court games with teams slowing the pace even more that they do in the regular season.

[StLHoosier]

3 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

52 points isn’t going to win you many tournament games...

96 (Marquette) will though......

[Steubenhoosier]

2 hours ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Dayton is not in the B1G conference.  I don't care what he accomplished at Dayton anymore.  He isn't playing in a conference where 1 maybe 2 teams make it to the Tournament.  This is the Big 10 where 7 to 9 teams can make it because of how difficult the schedules are of these schools.  He has talent on this team.  Does he know how to use it, so far the answer is no.  Which means he doesn't know how to adjust to the talent he has and can only work with a certain type of player.  He isn't going to be getting Dayton level players here.  He is going to be getting 4 and 5 star players who he is going to have to learn to adjust to or be a better teacher to get them to fit into his.  He has 2 years to make most of these players fit his system.  Its not working.  Next year is probably going to be about the same.  If after 3 years he has won an average 15 games with no improvement, he should be let go.  But he won't.  They decided to give him a 7 year 3.5 million dollar contract which means he is here for 5 because they can't afford to buy him out.  I will eat crow if he becomes the next Great IU coach but i just don't buy it anymore.  I don't think he has the flexibility to make it in this league.  I truly hope i am wrong.  I truly hope this isn't the style of basketball we get for the next 20 years.  I truly hope we win another game this season because if we don't, i think he should be fired.

You tend to make posts based on generalizations without having done the research to back your opinion. Once someone refutes your points with facts or statistics, you tend to disappear from the conversation. Usually, your unsubstantiated opinions slant towards the negative.

If I didn’t know any better, I would think that you have an agenda 

[jblaz13]

2 hours ago, Hoosierinbham said:

Any recruits from Jasper available?

Haha Lewis was absolutely ruthless!   IU could benefit a lot from more of a mean streak in the team in general. 

 

[Hoosierburgh]

2 hours ago, milehiiu said:

We need guys who are not just willing to go after loose balls, but are more intent on throwing a ball going out of bounds off an opponents face, in order to maintain possession.  IU has had guys like that in the past. 

Exactly!!!

[rico]

blah, blah, blah.....yada, yada, yada  Same stuff different thread.

[Hoosierhoopster]

Yeah there’s reason to say this is another repetitive thread and we’re trying to watch that. Thing is, the team is repeatedly losing and during that kind of bad run, there’s going to be a bunch of same ol same ol.

Someone else somewhere said this season kind of reminds them of the Vonleh season. I think there’s at least some comparison there. 

I don’t have the answers to the team’s complete implosion. I hope that gets figured out and now. But what I do see are

1) a lack of dependable outside shooting, resulting in closed driving and passing lanes and lower scoring, and

2) a lack of real, energetic and positive floor leadership. 

If we had outside shooting - consistently - we’d be scoring more and driving and passing would open up. 

If we had real floor leadership there would be more energy and accountability and positive vibes on the floor. 

I don’t think judging CAM on this season is right, fair, or productive