Hatchet Job on the Hoosiers

[IUFLA]

Hatchet Job on the Hoosiers

Since when did irrelevant sports writers from second rate sites take ownership of the Blueblood label?

While it's certainly debatable how inconsistent the program has been for a while now, I'm not one that believes labels like "blueblood" are taken or restored on a whim. You either have the history or you don't. You either have the fan base or you don't. 

[AxnJxn]

Hard to give credence to an article that completely leaves out Race Thompson when talking about the future. 

[IUCrazy2]

25 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Hatchet Job on the Hoosiers

Since when did irrelevant sports writers from second rate sites take ownership of the Blueblood label?

While it's certainly debatable how inconsistent the program has been for a while now, I'm not one that believes labels like "blueblood" are taken or restored on a whim. You either have the history or you don't. You either have the fan base or you don't. 

The article is ugly but you cannot argue with the facts he presents.  That is why there has been quite a bit of angst over the performance this year.  We do not have the luxury of much more time to get this turned around.  There were some discussing the crowd turn out and behavior (leaving early) after the game on Tuesday night.  What you all are seeing is the follow up signs of a program collapsing.

If we are a "blue blood", we are one that has squandered the family fortune and are down to our last $50,000.  We need to figure out a way to start getting massive returns on the small amount of assets we have left, because the only thing that still separates us from the middle class of college basketball (that $50k, aka our fanbase) is quickly withering away.

Right now there is no argument against us being a has been.  You can point to a couple of Big Ten titles over the past 25 or so years but that is not blue blood level output.  The facts speak for themselves.  Which is why Miller absolutely must have this program in the tournament next year.  That is the baseline expectation for me.  We need to start becoming a permanent fixture in the second weekend of the tournament and beyond over the next 5 to 10 years.  If we don't, we've completely lost our past.  I think I am part of the last generation that really remembers what this program was when it was clicking.  I was in the second grade when we won our last title.  I was middle school aged in 1992 and 1993.  I am 40 now.  If you are much younger than me, you do not remember watching the championship win and you probably barely remember the Cheaney teams.  Another 10 years of mediocrity and the glory days will only be remembered by those in the 50+ range.  We do not have anymore time to waste.

[IUFLA]

5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The article is ugly but you cannot argue with the facts he presents.  That is why there has been quite a bit of angst over the performance this year.  We do not have the luxury of much more time to get this turned around.  Their were some discussing the crowd turn out and behavior (leaving early) after the game on Tuesday night.  What you all are seeing is the follow up signs of a program collapsing.

If we are a "blue blood", we are one that has squandered the family fortune and are down to our last $50,000.  We need to figure out a way to start getting massive returns on the small amount of assets we have left, because the only thing that still separates us from the middle class of college basketball (that $50k, aka our fanbase) is quickly withering away.

Right now there is no argument against us being a has been.  You can point to a couple of Big Ten titles over the past 25 or so years but that is not blue blood level output.  The facts speak for themselves.  Which is why Miller absolutely must have this program in the tournament next year.  That is the baseline expectation for me.  We need to start becoming a permanent fixture in the second weekend of the tournament and beyond over the next 5 to 10 years.  If we don't, we've completely lost our past.  I think I am part of the last generation that really remembers what this program was when it was clicking.  I was in the second grade when we won our last title.  I was middle school aged in 1992 and 1993.  I am 40 now.  If you are much younger than me, you do not remember watching the championship win and you probably barely remember the Cheaney teams.  Another 10 years of mediocrity and the glory days will only be remembered by those in the 50+ range.  We do not have anymore time to waste.

Disagree. If IU won the National Championship next year does the Blueblood label get restored?

And if anyone wants to question, why not throw in program integrity? UCLA, UNC, and especially Kentucky have "questionable" NCs and Final Fours on their resumes. 

Nope, like I said, you either have the history and the fan base or you don't. 

[13th&Jackson]

IU has the pedigree to retain its blue blood status, but it's precarious. The program needs to get back to where the only question in March is what will the NCAAT seeding and match ups be.

Other programs can win a lot but don't have blue blood status. Virginia? Michigan? Gonzaga? No. However, they are relevant to the younger generation and that matters for recruiting, maintaining fan support, etc.

UConn has won four national titles since IU's last title. Are they a blue blood? Rarely if ever mentioned as such. The women's team gets more notoriety.

Indiana has a precious and rare commodity, but it is fading.

Archie needs to build a program that is consistent and sustainable to solidify blue blood status for the next generation. Fred Glass laid out the criteria. That's why the knee-jerk calls to fire Archie and try to hire a quick-fix has been so ridiculous. As difficult as the growing pains are, I'm willing to be patient to allow this program to be re-built. I want them to be in the NCAAT tournament next year, but if a young team improves, but goes to the NIT next year then IU is in the NCAAT for the next eight years, I can live with that.

"At this point, the team just seems to be cursed."

It does feel that way at the moment. One can hope it just helps build a toughness and resiliency that pays off in the future.

[IU Scott]

38 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The article is ugly but you cannot argue with the facts he presents.  That is why there has been quite a bit of angst over the performance this year.  We do not have the luxury of much more time to get this turned around.  There were some discussing the crowd turn out and behavior (leaving early) after the game on Tuesday night.  What you all are seeing is the follow up signs of a program collapsing.

If we are a "blue blood", we are one that has squandered the family fortune and are down to our last $50,000.  We need to figure out a way to start getting massive returns on the small amount of assets we have left, because the only thing that still separates us from the middle class of college basketball (that $50k, aka our fanbase) is quickly withering away.

Right now there is no argument against us being a has been.  You can point to a couple of Big Ten titles over the past 25 or so years but that is not blue blood level output.  The facts speak for themselves.  Which is why Miller absolutely must have this program in the tournament next year.  That is the baseline expectation for me.  We need to start becoming a permanent fixture in the second weekend of the tournament and beyond over the next 5 to 10 years.  If we don't, we've completely lost our past.  I think I am part of the last generation that really remembers what this program was when it was clicking.  I was in the second grade when we won our last title.  I was middle school aged in 1992 and 1993.  I am 40 now.  If you are much younger than me, you do not remember watching the championship win and you probably barely remember the Cheaney teams.  Another 10 years of mediocrity and the glory days will only be remembered by those in the 50+ range.  We do not have anymore time to waste.

To me there is a difference between blue blood and being elite.  To me being a blue blood means more of your history and what you have accomplished over many years.  Being elite means what you are at this given time in history.  To me we are a blue blood program but right now we are not an elite program.

[Zlinedavid]

We're the equivalent of a rocket that's been operating with one or more engines down.  Rockets that operate that way will get passed by 747s.  Rockets take more time and more effort to build or repair.  But with the right captain, the right crew, and operating correctly, rockets can get to heights 747s can't dream of. 

[IUFLA]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me there is a difference between blue blood and being elite.  To me being a blue blood means more of your history and what you have accomplished over many years.  Being elite means what you are at this given time in history.  To me we are a blue blood program but right now we are not an elite program.

Now that I agree with.

[AxnJxn]

I've always hung my hat on the fact that we've been to a Final Four in 6 different decades, and won titles in 4 different decades. But, the last two decades have been extremely slim pickings, even with the title game against Maryland in there. That's what was so disappointing about Crean not being able to build on the success he had - it was nice to be relevant again, just to quiet those "not a blue blood any more" comments for a bit.

[Zuckerkorn]

The whole use of the word "relevant" kind of amuses me.  What does that really mean?  A team that wins a NC?  A team that wins multiple NC's? A team that plays for national titles or final fours regularly? A team that is frequently ranked in the top ten but always flames out in the NCAAT?  Or just a team that is having a sudden, short period of relative success?

It's sort of like "making the tournament".  While nice, the objective is to win it.  If you get in and lose, it's either a disappointment to a good team or a great accomplishment to a mediocre one.  Maybe that's the definition of relevance? I doubt many fans of IU basketball are proud of the NC runner up team, while fans of a certain other in-state BT team seem to recall fondly just making a FF run decades ago.

[cohete15]

I won’t give the writer one more click. We are a blueblood program that lost its way for a while. I have full confidence that Archie will have us back. It’s funny thinking back to when we were #1 back in 2012 and how much the media slobs all over us when we are good. 

[Zlinedavid]

7 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said:

 I doubt many fans of IU basketball are proud of the NC runner up team

I get what you're saying, but let me phrase it a different way.  As a fan, am I proud of that team? Of course.  Is it a source of bragging rights? No.  In the annals of history, it's just another Final Four appearance.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, 13th&Jackson said:

IU has the pedigree to retain its blue blood status, but it's precarious. The program needs to get back to where the only question in March is what will the NCAAT seeding and match ups be.

Other programs can win a lot but don't have blue blood status. Virginia? Michigan? Gonzaga? No. However, they are relevant to the younger generation and that matters for recruiting, maintaining fan support, etc.

UConn has won four national titles since IU's last title. Are they a blue blood? Rarely if ever mentioned as such. The women's team gets more notoriety.

Indiana has a precious and rare commodity, but it is fading.

Archie needs to build a program that is consistent and sustainable to solidify blue blood status for the next generation. Fred Glass laid out the criteria. That's why the knee-jerk calls to fire Archie and try to hire a quick-fix has been so ridiculous. As difficult as the growing pains are, I'm willing to be patient to allow this program to be re-built. I want them to be in the NCAAT tournament next year, but if a young team improves, but goes to the NIT next year then IU is in the NCAAT for the next eight years, I can live with that.

"At this point, the team just seems to be cursed."

It does feel that way at the moment. One can hope it just helps build a toughness and resiliency that pays off in the future.

We're clearly, and without question, a "blue blood." 

We're also clearly a program going through another re-build, after Crean took us from the trash can that the Sampson mess left us in, restored the program to winning B1G titles, ranked #1 longer than any other team in the country, got us to SW16's, but didn't have consistent roster structure and recruiting to sustain it, or the confidence that he could do so going forward.

So now we have a guy in CAM who most believe is a top flight, young coach, who is still just in year 2 bringing in his recruits. We've already been ranked again this season, now dealing with a collapse for various reasons but also looking to have come out of it on the other side.

Trying to take away the well-earned "blue blood" label is just stupid. Whether we get back to that level of accomplishment remains to be seen, but hello, it's year 2 of the CAM era.

[IU Scott]

32 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said:

The whole use of the word "relevant" kind of amuses me.  What does that really mean?  A team that wins a NC?  A team that wins multiple NC's? A team that plays for national titles or final fours regularly? A team that is frequently ranked in the top ten but always flames out in the NCAAT?  Or just a team that is having a sudden, short period of relative success?

It's sort of like "making the tournament".  While nice, the objective is to win it.  If you get in and lose, it's either a disappointment to a good team or a great accomplishment to a mediocre one.  Maybe that's the definition of relevance? I doubt many fans of IU basketball are proud of the NC runner up team, while fans of a certain other in-state BT team seem to recall fondly just making a FF run decades ago.

Yes we all want to win the national title but I was proud of the 2002 for making it to the championship game even if we did not win it.

[IUCrazy2]

2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Disagree. If IU won the National Championship next year does the Blueblood label get restored?

And if anyone wants to question, why not throw in program integrity? UCLA, UNC, and especially Kentucky have "questionable" NCs and Final Fours on their resumes. 

Nope, like I said, you either have the history and the fan base or you don't. 

The blue blood label is still there I suppose but it is all based on performances that occurred over 30 years ago.  At a certain point I do believe you can lose that status.  I also do not believe that winning one national title means that we are back.  You get to being "back" when you have a sustained run.  If Miller starting next year and going forward over the next 10 is able to add a title, a few elite 8 and sweet 16 appearances, not miss the tournament, and keep the program ranked in the top 25 every year and in the top 15 for half of those years.  Then we are "back". UConn won 4 titles in a very short amount of time and then fell off.  Blue blood is finding sustained success across multiple coaches over decades.  Our blue blood status is built almost entirely on 2 coaches.  

[BADGERVOL]

3 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The article is ugly but you cannot argue with the facts he presents.  That is why there has been quite a bit of angst over the performance this year.  We do not have the luxury of much more time to get this turned around.  There were some discussing the crowd turn out and behavior (leaving early) after the game on Tuesday night.  What you all are seeing is the follow up signs of a program collapsing.

If we are a "blue blood", we are one that has squandered the family fortune and are down to our last $50,000.  We need to figure out a way to start getting massive returns on the small amount of assets we have left, because the only thing that still separates us from the middle class of college basketball (that $50k, aka our fanbase) is quickly withering away.

Right now there is no argument against us being a has been.  You can point to a couple of Big Ten titles over the past 25 or so years but that is not blue blood level output.  The facts speak for themselves.  Which is why Miller absolutely must have this program in the tournament next year.  That is the baseline expectation for me.  We need to start becoming a permanent fixture in the second weekend of the tournament and beyond over the next 5 to 10 years.  If we don't, we've completely lost our past.  I think I am part of the last generation that really remembers what this program was when it was clicking.  I was in the second grade when we won our last title.  I was middle school aged in 1992 and 1993.  I am 40 now.  If you are much younger than me, you do not remember watching the championship win and you probably barely remember the Cheaney teams.  Another 10 years of mediocrity and the glory days will only be remembered by those in the 50+ range.  We do not have anymore time to waste.

I think you make some good points but I think you’re shading it in extra gloom and doom level looking back over the past 25 years. I mean come on that goes back to Calbert’s end of his career. So let’s assume you meant past 20.

so let’s consider the past 20...can we agree those have been about the worst stretch of IU basketball in our entire HISTORY? Most would agree. When you say “we only have a couple BT titles to point to,” you leave out a final four and national championship appearance, several Sweet 16s, several other top 2-3 finishes in the BT. When you add it all up and just feel sick about the horrid years between those better years, you end up with a team about on par with wisconsin. Wisconsin is in their greatest stretch in the history of their program and we are in the worst. See the difference?

and you also left out things we have beyond a fan base. For anyone to ignore the tradition rich fertile recruiting grounds in indiana and nearby states you’re choosing to throw that away to paint an even worse picture. 

We are embarrassing right now and when comparing ourselves to a top 5-6 blue blood program historically we just can’t claim the past 20 years reflect that. However, we will remain a sleeping bear probably forever. Even more so than a Notre Dame in Football for many reasons but this is getting long.

but yes we aren’t a sinking ship, we are a glorious vessel laying on the bottom of the seas floor. But we are in tack and if risen could ride the waves of the sea with the mighty titans. Woa...that got way too poetic.

[IUCrazy2]

4 hours ago, BADGERVOL said:

I think you make some good points but I think you’re shading it in extra gloom and doom level looking back over the past 25 years. I mean come on that goes back to Calbert’s end of his career. So let’s assume you meant past 20.

so let’s consider the past 20...can we agree those have been about the worst stretch of IU basketball in our entire HISTORY? Most would agree. When you say “we only have a couple BT titles to point to,” you leave out a final four and national championship appearance, several Sweet 16s, several other top 2-3 finishes in the BT. When you add it all up and just feel sick about the horrid years between those better years, you end up with a team about on par with wisconsin. Wisconsin is in their greatest stretch in the history of their program and we are in the worst. See the difference?

and you also left out things we have beyond a fan base. For anyone to ignore the tradition rich fertile recruiting grounds in indiana and nearby states you’re choosing to throw that away to paint an even worse picture. 

We are embarrassing right now and when comparing ourselves to a top 5-6 blue blood program historically we just can’t claim the past 20 years reflect that. However, we will remain a sleeping bear probably forever. Even more so than a Notre Dame in Football for many reasons but this is getting long.

but yes we aren’t a sinking ship, we are a glorious vessel laying on the bottom of the seas floor. But we are in tack and if risen could ride the waves of the sea with the mighty titans. Woa...that got way too poetic.

They were not questioning whether we were mid tier and mediocre, they were questioning our blue blood status.

Wisconsin has beaten us like 19 out of the past 21 games we have played.  The tournament and Final Four appearance happened the year after I graduated IU.  I was 23.  I am now 40.  Since then we have had 3 Sweet 16 appearances and 2 Big Ten titles...in 17 years.  We also have missed the tournament more times than all of those other programs combined.  We are not elite.  We have not produced like a blue blood since Henderson graduated.  Knight made it past the first round 1 time after Alan Henderson graduated IIRC, so I stick by the 25 year timeframe.  Except back then we were close enough to blue blood status that people lamented not getting past the first round as opposed to not making the tournament at all.

The built in advantages we have from the recruiting standpoint are not much different from Illinois, who I think is probably a better comparison to where we are at right now than Wisconsin.  They were a strong program with many built in advantages and they just have not performed lately.

[BADGERVOL]

1 hour ago, IUCrazy2 said:

They were not questioning whether we were mid tier and mediocre, they were questioning our blue blood status.

Wisconsin has beaten us like 19 out of the past 21 games we have played.  The tournament and Final Four appearance happened the year after I graduated IU.  I was 23.  I am now 40.  Since then we have had 3 Sweet 16 appearances and 2 Big Ten titles...in 17 years.  We also have missed the tournament more times than all of those other programs combined.  We are not elite.  We have not produced like a blue blood since Henderson graduated.  Knight made it past the first round 1 time after Alan Henderson graduated IIRC, so I stick by the 25 year timeframe.  Except back then we were close enough to blue blood status that people lamented not getting past the first round as opposed to not making the tournament at all.

The built in advantages we have from the recruiting standpoint are not much different from Illinois, who I think is probably a better comparison to where we are at right now than Wisconsin.  They were a strong program with many built in advantages and they just have not performed lately.

I didn’t say we’re elite. In fact I said we are NOT elite right now. But one of many signs of a program that has a deep history of success (aka Blueblood)is that they’re worst stretches look like an average team. We’ve been a “Crean caliber” program from Davis through now. Even in our darkest most horrific years we still have started to stand up some.

we have things that teams who have had great success over 10-20 year stretches still don’t have. We have our problems...and they’re the orst they’ve ever been. I agree with the word “fading.” But you don’t become a blue blood in 15-20 years and you don’t lose it either in the same time period.

but I am getting concerned...

[BADGERVOL]

1 hour ago, IUCrazy2 said:

They were not questioning whether we were mid tier and mediocre, they were questioning our blue blood status.

Wisconsin has beaten us like 19 out of the past 21 games we have played.  The tournament and Final Four appearance happened the year after I graduated IU.  I was 23.  I am now 40.  Since then we have had 3 Sweet 16 appearances and 2 Big Ten titles...in 17 years.  We also have missed the tournament more times than all of those other programs combined.  We are not elite.  We have not produced like a blue blood since Henderson graduated.  Knight made it past the first round 1 time after Alan Henderson graduated IIRC, so I stick by the 25 year timeframe.  Except back then we were close enough to blue blood status that people lamented not getting past the first round as opposed to not making the tournament at all.

The built in advantages we have from the recruiting standpoint are not much different from Illinois, who I think is probably a better comparison to where we are at right now than Wisconsin.  They were a strong program with many built in advantages and they just have not performed lately.

Oh and Illinois has almost NO comparison to IU in almost anyway. Recruiting bases are similar? Uh...no. Not close. They’re history is similar? Nope not close. They’re fan base? Come on. About the only thing we share in common with them is our schools both begin with “I”

[rico]

8 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Oh and Illinois has almost NO comparison to IU in almost anyway. Recruiting bases are similar? Uh...no. Not close. They’re history is similar? Nope not close. They’re fan base? Come on. About the only thing we share in common with them is our schools both begin with “I”

You left one important thing out...we share a border with them.  LOL

[IUCrazy2]

26 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Oh and Illinois has almost NO comparison to IU in almost anyway. Recruiting bases are similar? Uh...no. Not close. They’re history is similar? Nope not close. They’re fan base? Come on. About the only thing we share in common with them is our schools both begin with “I”

You guys get too defensive.  I said the better comparison for where we are RIGHT NOW is Illinois.  Wisconsin has been undeniably better than us since the turn of the century.  Illinois has turned in results close to what we have.

As far as recruiting potential:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjznZXI0t_gAhUHWq0KHYZjDZ0QzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fherosports.com%2Fnews%2Fcollege-basketball-players-home-states-d1-mens-basketball-kentucky-texas-deaaron-fox&psig=AOvVaw1Qd0o4ebUUKBi9VJSpOL_E&ust=1551485110113469

Indiana does well but Illinois is pretty fertile recruiting ground, aka the built in potential advantage.

[rico]

2 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

You guys get too defensive.  I said the better comparison for where we are RIGHT NOW is Illinois.  Wisconsin has been undeniably better than us since the turn of the century.  Illinois has turned in results close to what we have.

As far as recruiting potential:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjznZXI0t_gAhUHWq0KHYZjDZ0QzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fherosports.com%2Fnews%2Fcollege-basketball-players-home-states-d1-mens-basketball-kentucky-texas-deaaron-fox&psig=AOvVaw1Qd0o4ebUUKBi9VJSpOL_E&ust=1551485110113469

Indiana does well but Illinois is pretty fertile recruiting ground, aka the built in potential advantage.

I don't think the guys are too defensive...just pretty smart.

[Zlinedavid]

28 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

You guys get too defensive.  I said the better comparison for where we are RIGHT NOW is Illinois.  Wisconsin has been undeniably better than us since the turn of the century.  Illinois has turned in results close to what we have.

As far as recruiting potential:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjznZXI0t_gAhUHWq0KHYZjDZ0QzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fherosports.com%2Fnews%2Fcollege-basketball-players-home-states-d1-mens-basketball-kentucky-texas-deaaron-fox&psig=AOvVaw1Qd0o4ebUUKBi9VJSpOL_E&ust=1551485110113469

Indiana does well but Illinois is pretty fertile recruiting ground, aka the built in potential advantage.

The ultimate false positive that haunts every UI head coach.

There's a reason why Southern Illinois residents refer to "the state of Chicago" and residents of Chicago forget that the other 80% of the state EXISTS. Let's be honest, the majority of the talent comes from the Chicago area, or at least north of I74. UI isn't top of mind for many of these kids. It's simply the home state option.

And although it's in the same state, Champaign isn't exactly Chicago's backyard. It's the same drive time to Chicago from Madison as it is Champaign.

It may be fertile recruiting grounds, but UI doesn't carry any kind of in state advantage.

[IUCrazy2]

30 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

The ultimate false positive that haunts every UI head coach.

There's a reason why Southern Illinois residents refer to "the state of Chicago" and residents of Chicago forget that the other 80% of the state EXISTS. Let's be honest, the majority of the talent comes from the Chicago area, or at least north of I74. UI isn't top of mind for many of these kids. It's simply the home state option.

And although it's in the same state, Champaign isn't exactly Chicago's backyard. It's the same drive time to Chicago from Madison as it is Champaign.

It may be fertile recruiting grounds, but UI doesn't carry any kind of in state advantage.

I think there is a parallel in that with Indiana as well.  We generally do best when we are relying fairly heavily on in state talent.  Illinois does pretty well when they are able to land the talent.  Chicago is an interesting place to recruit to say the least, but the right coach at Illinois could get it done, they just do not have a guy smarmy enough to pull it off.

[Zlinedavid]

5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I think there is a parallel in that with Indiana as well.  We generally do best when we are relying fairly heavily on in state talent.  Illinois does pretty well when they are able to land the talent.  Chicago is an interesting place to recruit to say the least, but the right coach at Illinois could get it done, they just do not have a guy smarmy enough to pull it off.

UI does well when there are good crops of players from Peoria and downstate, which is as hit-and-miss as any other place in the country.  Look at their run from the late '90s-mid '00s.  McClain, Williams, Cook, Brown, Howard...all either Peoria or downstate.  Now, they don't strike out totally in Chicago. They landed Brown and Head at the same period of time, but the majority of their talent was from a really, really good few years of downstate talent. 

Another key difference, Illinois does well when they can land in state talent. Indiana has more of a history with landing top level talent outside of the state.  Who was the last top 25 out of state recruit UI landed? DWill?