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1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Naah, winning the PG trade? If you really believe that, and after a couple early games, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Your fandom, and disenchantment with PG, has the better of you.

The Pacers are not a playoff team, but how they develop with their new core group, including Vic, will be fun to watch. 

You see the irony of you telling me my fandom has the better of my judgment regarding PG, right? PG was a whiner, not a winner in Indy. It's why PG clearly performed below his talent level and why the team did. 

This team? Clearly less talent but they have the look of a team that can win 45-50 games because of how hard they play every night. 

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7 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

You see the irony of you telling me my fandom has the better of my judgment regarding PG, right? PG was a whiner, not a winner in Indy. It's why PG clearly performed below his talent level and why the team did. 

This team? Clearly less talent but they have the look of a team that can win 45-50 games because of how hard they play every night. 

I know I enjoy watching this team a lot better than the last few years.  if some how we could get rid of Lance then I would totally love this team.  There will be ups and downs with this team but it will be enjoyable to watch..  They move the ball and the players move instead of just getting the ball to PG and let him try to make a play.

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lets look at the Pacers this year compared to last year.

PG Teague vs Collison- I would take Collison in this matchup

2G Ellis vs VO- VO a lot better

SF George vs BArnovich(?) - PG by a land slide

PF Young-same

C Turner same

Bench this years team has a better bench

So looking at it his way I think this years team is not that much different than last year.

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2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Naah, winning the PG trade? If you really believe that, and after a couple early games, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Your fandom, and disenchantment with PG, has the better of you.

The Pacers are not a playoff team, but how they develop with their new core group, including Vic, will be fun to watch. 

If George leaves OKC after this year, does that change your opinion?  Let's even say he gets OKC deep in the playoffs...was it worth what OKC gave up to get him for one season?  I don't know...just have opinions, but I'm curious if that scenario changes your opinion any?  Oladipo is probably not ready to carry the Pacers like Paul George might have but after watching him last night, I don't feel like he's as overpaid as the "experts" thought he was.

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2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

You see the irony of you telling me my fandom has the better of my judgment regarding PG, right? PG was a whiner, not a winner in Indy. It's why PG clearly performed below his talent level and why the team did. 

This team? Clearly less talent but they have the look of a team that can win 45-50 games because of how hard they play every night. 

Well, no, I don't. We've gone through PG's stats several times now, he's a top 10 player and clearly played "like it" as a Pacer. Bird ruined the team, trading away or losing everyone (literally, everyone) around him and then bringing in Teague, another failed trade in dealing G Hill. PG was fully on track to taking Reggie's spot as the greatest Pacer ever. You don't like his personality, I get it, but I couldn't disagree with you more on his impact, and there isn't a team in the League that wouldn't love to have him.

No offense intended, but your thinking this is a 45-50 win team shows your fandom, my friend. This is not a 45-50 win team. We're 3 games into an 82 game season. Butler didn't play with the Wolves, and it's one regular season game. I'm not rooting for the Pacers to fail, but I'm certainly not going to see them as one of the better teams in the League, they're not. They may end up middle of the pack. Happy to compare notes at the end of the season.

As to whether PG works with the Thunder, way too early to tell. I wasn't that high on Melo being added to the Thunder, but it's also way too early to tell if that will work. Russ, PG and Melo are all high usage guys who are used to playing the key role in crunch time. That team could be a top 3-5 team, in the West, and it also could end up failing. It will be interesting to watch how the Thunder develop. 

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6 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

If George leaves OKC after this year, does that change your opinion?  Let's even say he gets OKC deep in the playoffs...was it worth what OKC gave up to get him for one season?  I don't know...just have opinions, but I'm curious if that scenario changes your opinion any?  Oladipo is probably not ready to carry the Pacers like Paul George might have but after watching him last night, I don't feel like he's as overpaid as the "experts" thought he was.

I can't say at this point. PG made clear he wants to go "home" to pay for the Lakers. After the way Bird flubbed everyone and ruined the Pacers, I frankly cannot and do not blame PG for leaving, at all. No other franchise (well, maybe Sacramento....) would be so ridiculously stupid in the way they treat their franchise player. Bird is a self-centered, stubborn fool. Now if the Thunder end up excelling (after some gel time) and do well, I think PG could well stay with the Thunder -- he wants to win. As to what the Pacers got, I love Vic, probably my favorite Hoosier ever, but he's clearly not on PG's level, he's not a franchise player, and we're 3 games into an 82 game season. I hope he excels, I'm rooting for him, and I hope he works out for the Pacers, but the Pacers have more building to do.

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14 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Well, no, I don't. We've gone through PG's stats several times now, he's a top 10 player and clearly played "like it" as a Pacer. Bird ruined the team, trading away or losing everyone (literally, everyone) around him and then bringing in Teague, another failed trade in dealing G Hill. PG was fully on track to taking Reggie's spot as the greatest Pacer ever. You don't like his personality, I get it, but I couldn't disagree with you more on his impact, and there isn't a team in the League that wouldn't love to have him.

No offense intended, but your thinking this is a 45-50 win team shows your fandom, my friend. This is not a 45-50 win team. We're 3 games into an 82 game season. Butler didn't play with the Wolves, and it's one regular season game. I'm not rooting for the Pacers to fail, but I'm certainly not going to see them as one of the better teams in the League, they're not. They may end up middle of the pack. Happy to compare notes at the end of the season.

As to whether PG works with the Thunder, way too early to tell. I wasn't that high on Melo being added to the Thunder, but it's also way too early to tell if that will work. Russ, PG and Melo are all high usage guys who are used to playing the key role in crunch time. That team could be a top 3-5 team, in the West, and it also could end up failing. It will be interesting to watch how the Thunder develop. 

Turner didn't play either so that evens it out.  I think you are blinded by your loyality to PG to see what kind of player he is. Yes his stats were great but he did not have any intangibles that helps teams win games.

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12 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I can't say at this point. PG made clear he wants to go "home" to pay for the Lakers. After the way Bird flubbed everyone and ruined the Pacers, I frankly cannot and do not blame PG for leaving, at all. No other franchise (well, maybe Sacramento....) would be so ridiculously stupid in the way they treat their franchise player. Bird is a self-centered, stubborn fool. Now if the Thunder end up excelling (after some gel time) and do well, I think PG could well stay with the Thunder -- he wants to win. As to what the Pacers got, I love Vic, probably my favorite Hoosier ever, but he's clearly not on PG's level, he's not a franchise player, and we're 3 games into an 82 game season. I hope he excels, I'm rooting for him, and I hope he works out for the Pacers, but the Pacers have more building to do.

Actually we are 4 games into the season but point taken.

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27 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

If George leaves OKC after this year, does that change your opinion?  Let's even say he gets OKC deep in the playoffs...was it worth what OKC gave up to get him for one season?  I don't know...just have opinions, but I'm curious if that scenario changes your opinion any?  Oladipo is probably not ready to carry the Pacers like Paul George might have but after watching him last night, I don't feel like he's as overpaid as the "experts" thought he was.

It's hard to say from OKC's point of view. I think even if PG leaves there this summer, this trade and the Melo signing are what helped Westbrook finally sign with them long-term. Without the PG trade I think there's a really good chance Westbrook entertains leaving next summer. So, even if PG bolts I think it was worth it for OKC, especially since VO was a horrible fit there once Durant left. 

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11 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It's hard to say from OKC's point of view. I think even if PG leaves there this summer, this trade and the Melo signing are what helped Westbrook finally sign with them long-term. Without the PG trade I think there's a really good chance Westbrook entertains leaving next summer. So, even if PG bolts I think it was worth it for OKC, especially since VO was a horrible fit there once Durant left. 

Agree with this entirely.  Getting Westbrook to re-sign means the trade was totally worth it for the Thunder.  No way the Pacers “won” the trade, but it was significantly better for them than the “experts” said it was.  They were going to lose PG for nothing, and VO and Sabonas are good building blocks.  But PG is way more valuable than both of them combined.  His “intangibles” were enough to get the Pacers to two ECFs.  

As it is, I think the Pacers can compete for the 8 seed in the anemic East this season, but if you think they’re going to win 45-50 games, I’d like a little bit of whatever you’re smoking.

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4 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Agree with this entirely.  Getting Westbrook to re-sign means the trade was totally worth it for the Thunder.  No way the Pacers “won” the trade, but it was significantly better for them than the “experts” said it was.  They were going to lose PG for nothing, and VO and Sabonas are good building blocks.  But PG is way more valuable than both of them combined.  His “intangibles” were enough to get the Pacers to two ECFs.  

As it is, I think the Pacers can compete for the 8 seed in the anemic East this season, but if you think they’re going to win 45-50 games, I’d like a little bit of whatever you’re smoking.

With PG last year we were pretty much out of it until the last 6 games of the season.

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2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It's hard to say from OKC's point of view. I think even if PG leaves there this summer, this trade and the Melo signing are what helped Westbrook finally sign with them long-term. Without the PG trade I think there's a really good chance Westbrook entertains leaving next summer. So, even if PG bolts I think it was worth it for OKC, especially since VO was a horrible fit there once Durant left. 

Was that mostly due to Westbrook's ball dominance?  It does appear that he fits better with the Pacers and has a better chance to blossom.  I could see him putting up a stat line similar to what George puts up this year, albeit for a less-talented team that relies much more heavily on Vic than OKC does on George.

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Well, no, I don't. We've gone through PG's stats several times now, he's a top 10 player and clearly played "like it" as a Pacer. Bird ruined the team, trading away or losing everyone (literally, everyone) around him and then bringing in Teague, another failed trade in dealing G Hill. PG was fully on track to taking Reggie's spot as the greatest Pacer ever. You don't like his personality, I get it, but I couldn't disagree with you more on his impact, and there isn't a team in the League that wouldn't love to have him.

No offense intended, but your thinking this is a 45-50 win team shows your fandom, my friend. This is not a 45-50 win team. We're 3 games into an 82 game season. Butler didn't play with the Wolves, and it's one regular season game. I'm not rooting for the Pacers to fail, but I'm certainly not going to see them as one of the better teams in the League, they're not. They may end up middle of the pack. Happy to compare notes at the end of the season.

As to whether PG works with the Thunder, way too early to tell. I wasn't that high on Melo being added to the Thunder, but it's also way too early to tell if that will work. Russ, PG and Melo are all high usage guys who are used to playing the key role in crunch time. That team could be a top 3-5 team, in the West, and it also could end up failing. It will be interesting to watch how the Thunder develop. 

You can't call me biased and say PG of clearly a top ten player. Like you've said, we've gone over stats and expert lists many times; they don't show a top ten player. 

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57 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Agree with this entirely.  Getting Westbrook to re-sign means the trade was totally worth it for the Thunder.  No way the Pacers “won” the trade, but it was significantly better for them than the “experts” said it was.  They were going to lose PG for nothing, and VO and Sabonas are good building blocks.  But PG is way more valuable than both of them combined.  His “intangibles” were enough to get the Pacers to two ECFs.  

As it is, I think the Pacers can compete for the 8 seed in the anemic East this season, but if you think they’re going to win 45-50 games, I’d like a little bit of whatever you’re smoking.

Largely how I see it as well. Great move for the Thunder, and the Pacers ended up doing well in a bad situation, it clearly was not an even trade, but could well be a win win. I don't think the P's will compete for the 8th seed, but it is a weak conference and the Bulls are ruined, so maybe.

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21 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

If you really think PG is top ten, babe your top ten do we can see who you're leaving out. 

I think I can make a better case he isn't top five at his position than you can he is top ten in the league. 

We've hashed this out so many times now, lol. Look, whether you consider him top 15 (to argue he isn't would be flat out ridiculous) or top 10, does it matter? He's one of the best players in the League, whether top 10 or top 15, and guys like Vic are nowhere in the vicinity of being in that conversation, clearly. He's a franchise player. He led the P's, and very well, in two ECF's against LeBron and company. For years, he led the P's on both sides of the ball. Very few players in the League have done that for their teams.

PG took a step back last year, didn't play well until about March, when he went on fire and was clearly a top 10 player, but his slow start hurt his own stats and didn't help the team. Regardless, to the extent we have to look at PG's stats, here's a few

Defensive win shares

2012-13 - 1st overall (and 3rd overall in defensive rating)

2013-14 -2nd overall

2015-16 (after his injury) - 7th. 

2016-17 - not in top 20

PPG

2013-14 - 12th

2015-16 - 10th

2016-17 - 15th (despite the slow start)

3-Pt FG's

2012-13 - 10th

2013-13 - 13th

2015-16 - 6th

2016-17 - 12th

VORP

2012-13 - 9th

2013-14 - 9th

2015-16 11th

Steals

2012-13 - 6th

2013-14 - 4th

2015-16 - 6th

2016-17 - 15th

And his playoff numbers, when it matters, are often better. He often dominates in the playoffs as he did just this past playoffs. Not liking his attitude is one thing, denying how much he contributes is another.

 

With all of these stats together, he's top 15 in PPG every year since 2013 (minus the year he lost due to that gruesome leg injury -- and despite that gruesome leg injury and losing an entire season, he came back the very next season and had what is clearly a great year. Come on man, you don't have to like him, but he's one of the best players in the League.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Actually we are 4 games into the season but point taken.

Haha, yeah 4 to the P's, my bad. 

Fwiw, I hope you and KoB end up being right about the P's -- I was disgusted with Bird, but I'm not meaning to hate on the P's, I just think they will end up winning somewhere in the range of 32-37 games, and will look a lot like Orlando. A team that lost its superstar, has some good players, but needs time to rebuild. Turner could end up being a legit all star, but he's not there yet. I hope he gets there.

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4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Haha, yeah 4 to the P's, my bad. 

Fwiw, I hope you and KoB end up being right about the P's -- I was disgusted with Bird, but I'm not meaning to hate on the P's, I just think they will end up winning somewhere in the range of 32-37 games, and will look a lot like Orlando. A team that lost its superstar, has some good players, but needs time to rebuild. Turner could end up being a legit all star, but he's not there yet. I hope he gets there.

I am not expecting a great team but so far this team is a lot more enjoyable to watch.  Also this team is easier to like because of the players on this years team.  I just was never a big fan of PG and his attitude on the court.  I hate seeing players whine to the officials on every call and a lot of times he would not get back on defense.

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By no means do I feel PG is clearly top 10. Top 20 maybe. Top 10 players are cold blooded assassins.  They want to be the man and more times than not PG was going through the motions. If he spent as much time getting back on defense as he did yapping with the refs after what he thought a missed call he would be all defensive team every year.  He is a good player that does not want to be the man.  Never hit a game winner.  I would take 2 guys with a chip on their shoulders that play hard and at least look like they want to be here.  I like PG But do not miss him for a second 

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47 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

By no means do I feel PG is clearly top 10. Top 20 maybe. Top 10 players are cold blooded assassins.  They want to be the man and more times than not PG was going through the motions. If he spent as much time getting back on defense as he did yapping with the refs after what he thought a missed call he would be all defensive team every year.  He is a good player that does not want to be the man.  Never hit a game winner.  I would take 2 guys with a chip on their shoulders that play hard and at least look like they want to be here.  I like PG But do not miss him for a second 

I lost respect for him the year he refused to play the 4.  To me as a player you do what is asked of you and not question the coach.

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59 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

By no means do I feel PG is clearly top 10. Top 20 maybe. Top 10 players are cold blooded assassins.  They want to be the man and more times than not PG was going through the motions. If he spent as much time getting back on defense as he did yapping with the refs after what he thought a missed call he would be all defensive team every year.  He is a good player that does not want to be the man.  Never hit a game winner.  I would take 2 guys with a chip on their shoulders that play hard and at least look like they want to be here.  I like PG But do not miss him for a second 

If if PG is a borderline top 10 guy, the difference between that and clear top ten guys is MASSIVE. Like you said, the clear top ten guys are absolute killers. 

Maybe PG would've gotten there without the injury, but it happened. I don't understand why his pre-injury accomplishments are even included in a discussion of where he ranks today. In two seasons since the injury, his defense dropped off and his team underachieved. His scoring instead due to volume only. That's not what elite players do. 

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1 hour ago, Billingsley99 said:

By no means do I feel PG is clearly top 10. Top 20 maybe. Top 10 players are cold blooded assassins.  They want to be the man and more times than not PG was going through the motions. If he spent as much time getting back on defense as he did yapping with the refs after what he thought a missed call he would be all defensive team every year.  He is a good player that does not want to be the man.  Never hit a game winner.  I would take 2 guys with a chip on their shoulders that play hard and at least look like they want to be here.  I like PG But do not miss him for a second 

You're welcome to your opinion, and I couldn't disagree with you more! The maybe top 20 idea is just unsupportable. Look at the numbers, across the board. Look at how he carried and led the P's to back to back ECF's against LeBron's Cavs. Not getting back on D, while he's 7th in defensive win shares and 6th steals and 11th in VORP in 2015-16, after his injury? All while being 10th in PPG that year?  OK. Assassin? Tell me what his playoff scoring numbers were in 2015-16, and in 2016-17. He flat out dominated. He had a crappy team around him, courtesy of Bird. So I could not disagree with you more, but that's ok.

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

You're welcome to your opinion, and I couldn't disagree with you more! The maybe top 20 idea is just unsupportable. Look at the numbers, across the board. Look at how he carried and led the P's to back to back ECF's against LeBron's Cavs. Not getting back on D, while he's 7th in defensive win shares and 6th steals and 11th in VORP in 2015-16, after his injury? All while being 10th in PPG that year?  OK. Assassin? Tell me what his playoff scoring numbers were in 2015-16, and in 2016-17. He flat out dominated. He had a crappy team around him, courtesy of Bird. So I could not disagree with you more, but that's ok.

What he did pre-injury is irrelevant. He isn't that same player anymore. Is what Wade did five years ago relevant to a discussion of how good he is today? 

You keep talking about how great he was in the two first round exits. Do you understand that LeBron had arguably the greatest single series any player has had with Paul George guarding him? That doesn't equate to good defense. Do you really think steals is relevant to being a good defender? I guess it makes sense why that you would since you didn't think Crean was a bad defensive coach. Turnovers and deflections are great, but the goal of defense is to not let guys score. 

Then you quote points per game, is this 1982? You're using stats that are SO OUTDATED as metrics to show your point. The sad thing is, you proved you know what advanced stats are because you quoted the only one that favors PG. PER is probably the entry level of advanced stats, how was that last year? 

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Guys unequivocally better than PG:

LeBron

Leonard

Durant

Curry

Davis

Greek Freak

Towns

Harden

Westbrook

 

Guys mostly accepted as better than PG at this point:

Wall

Thompson

Butler

Paul

Guys that a case could be made either way:

Draymond

Lillard

Kyrie

IT

Beal

Porzingis

Love

Griffin

Gobert

Jokic

 

So you have 9 guys that you can't really argue with, and 4 more that you'd have a really hard time making a case. He's in that next group. Still a REALLY good player, but he isn't elite like he was/could've been. Your BIAS of your fandom from when he was a top 5 player gets the best of you my friend. 

 

 

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