NBA Thread

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

The All-Star game has very little to do with conference head-to-head. There are more "stars" in the West to compete with. 

Gotcha.  Though you were basing it on the perception that the East was weak (except for your Celtics of course).  

[Billingsley99]

9 minutes ago, BGleas said:

The All-Star game has very little to do with conference head-to-head. There are more "stars" in the West to compete with. 

If PG is the top 10-15 player that some claim it should make no difference what conf he plays in.

[BGleas]

6 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Gotcha.  Though you were basing it on the perception that the East was weak (except for your Celtics of course).  

Haha, well played :).

No, just saying there is much more competition for the All-Star roster in the West. 

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

If PG is the top 10-15 player that some claim it should make no difference what conf he plays in.

Well, it kind of does. I believe according to ESPN's list at the beginning of the season something like 13 or 14 of the top 15 players (according the their rankings) were in the West. Only 12 make the All-Star Team and the NBA does get specific about positions (though I think they may have removed the C position, not sure). 

[Billingsley99]

Is that the list that has Rudy Gorbert ahead of Kyrie? I don't take much stock in it.   Off top of my head LeBron, Kyrie,Hayward, John Wall and Greek freak ahead of PG. In all honesty PG probably is the 7th best guard in the west

Edited November 28, 2017 by Billingsley99

[Hoosierhoopster]

8 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Is that the list that has Rudy Gorbert ahead of Kyrie? I don't take much stock in it.   Off top of my head LeBron, Kyrie,Hayward, John Wall and Greek freak ahead of PG. In all honesty PG probably is the 7th best guard in the west

1) PG is not a guard, he's a small forward (and that is always how he is selected for all star games). 

2) There is a sum total zero basis/metrics to put Hayward ahead of PG, except of course that you like Hayward  

3) All stars are selected by conference, as Gleas noted (and otherwise as much as I like him, Vic wouldn't stand a chance, as a guard). Guys like D Lillard get screwed and cheated out of the All Star game every year, because the West guard group is so stacked. And he really got hosed last season.

4) John Wall is not having a great year, so far, and the weakness in his game continues to be shooting. As good as he is, he has not developed a consistent shot, and it hurts the Wiz. Beal actually may be the better player at this point (his weakness is staying healthy).

and 5) I am done participating in dealing with the continuing PG bashing. I don't get the need.

[Billingsley99]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

1) PG is not a guard, he's a small forward (and that is always how he is selected for all star games). 

2) There is a sum total zero basis/metrics to put Hayward ahead of PG, except of course that you like Hayward  

3) All stars are selected by conference, as Gleas noted (and otherwise as much as I like him, Vic wouldn't stand a chance, as a guard). Guys like D Lillard get screwed and cheated out of the All Star game every year, because the West guard group is so stacked. And he really got hosed last season.

4) John Wall is not having a great year, so far, and the weakness in his game continues to be shooting. As good as he is, he has not developed a consistent shot, and it hurts the Wiz. Beal actually may be the better player at this point (his weakness is staying healthy).

and 5) I am done participating in dealing with the continuing PG bashing. I don't get the need.

I don't see any bashing. I don't think Vic will make the All Star game .  My point is if he is a top 15 player then it really would not matter what position or conf. He plays in. Also top 15 would have put him 3rd team all NBA. If he would have been on 3rd team I believe he would still be here

[BGleas]

22 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Is that the list that has Rudy Gorbert ahead of Kyrie? I don't take much stock in it.   Off top of my head LeBron, Kyrie,Hayward, John Wall and Greek freak ahead of PG. In all honesty PG probably is the 7th best guard in the west

It might be that list. I wasn't referencing it as the end all/be all of player rankings, just saying according to many the West has a majority of the better players, and we know historically the All-Star Team is selected largely off perception. 

One thing that could help PG is that Kawai hasn't played a game yet, but check out the list of forwards he's competing with below:

Kevin Durant

Draymond Green

Blake Griffin

Karl Anthony Townes

Paul Milsap

Anthony Davis

Andrew Wiggins

LaMarcus Aldridge

Jimmy Butler

 

[Billingsley99]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It might be that list. I wasn't referencing it as the end all/be all of player rankings, just saying according to many the West has a majority of the better players, and we know historically the All-Star Team is selected largely off perception. 

One thing that could help PG is that Kawai hasn't played a game yet, but check out the list of forwards he's competing with below:

Kevin Durant

Draymond Green

Blake Griffin

Karl Anthony Townes

Paul Milsap

Anthony Davis

Andrew Wiggins

LaMarcus Aldridge

Jimmy Butler

 

From me there is no I'll will for PG.  We own 4 jerseys he signed one for my son. I am a PG fan. My point the whole time has been that I believe Indiana got the better end of the trade all the way around.  

[5fouls]

17 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

and 5) I am done participating in dealing with the continuing PG bashing. I don't get the need.

The ongoing discussion comparing Vic's year to Paul's is not 'bashing' George.  

[BGleas]

Just now, Billingsley99 said:

From me there is no I'll will for PG.  We own 4 jerseys he signed one for my son. I am a PG fan. My point the whole time has been that I believe Indiana got the better end of the trade all the way around.  

First time I've heard that point from you in our discussion today. I wasn't referencing who got the better end of the deal whatsoever. I was responding the 5fouls question about the All-Star Game, which has nothing to do with the trade. Just a fact that it's easier to make the All-Star Team from the East. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

I don't see any bashing. I don't think Vic will make the All Star game .  My point is if he is a top 15 player then it really would not matter what position or conf. He plays in. Also top 15 would have put him 3rd team all NBA. If he would have been on 3rd team I believe he would still be here

Fair enough -- clarifying: All Star games are picked by conference -- the conference you are in matters. The best players are collectively, hands down, in the West. The competition for all star spots in the West is much steeper -- it just is, because of how they pick the All Star teams.

They also do not pick players 1-15, they pick by position. What position you are matters as to whether or not you are picked for the All Star game, because they pick by position.

Then there's the simple fact that the All Star game is not picked by who is the best player, 1-15 or otherwise, it is a popularity contest, with fans getting the lion share of the share of a player's vote, followed up (up to this season) by media, and then for non-starters, coaches. This year it's fans, media and players, I don't recall the breakdown, but it will continue to be largely a popularity contest. Reggie made 5 All Star games in 18 years. Think about that.

Then if you want to look on a pure star/talent basis for selecting small forwards, in the West it pretty clearly goes 1) Durant, 2) Kawhii, and the All Star game selections are made as "forwards," not just small forwards, so then you include in that top group players like Anthony Davis, Marc Gasol, Draymond, etc.

But for whatever it matters -- and as much as I personally like PG as a player while others on here have some kind of ax to grind on him -- I am far from alone in considering him one of the top players and forward in the League. Here's a couple: 1) who are the top 5 SF's in the League, Sept. 2017, #5: PG; https://www.isportsweb.com/2017/09/27/who-are-the-top-5-small-forwards-in-the-nba/  -- this ranking, which is hard to dispute at this point, goes 1. LeBron, 2. Durant, 3. Greek Freak (though he's not really a 3), 4. Kawhi (I'd put him 2 or 3), and 5. PG; 2) Hollinger's NBA player stats 2017-18, top 5 PER by SF's, PG#4 http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf/league/west ; 3) another small forward ranking placing PG as #4, http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2701554-nba-position-power-rankings-end-of-regular-season-edition-small-forwards ;  I could go on, but as this thread has demonstrated,, what's the point, stats and what he's demonstrated for years are just ignored.

Regardless, PG is clearly not having a great year, so far. He had two exceptional games when Carmelo was out (golly, wonder why), and now that Melo is back and it's all iso ball again, he's had an up and down couple of games and most recently a horrible shooting game (though he had 10 assists). It's going to be an interesting year for PG, and for that matter Melo. They, along with Westbrook, had better go away from iso ball, or they're going to be at best mediocre, and could actually miss the playoffs. Btw, they just dominated Golden State, in a game where all three played fantastic ball. That's the team they're capable of being. But we'll see if they get it together regularly, and whether PG can adapt to playing with ridiculously iso-ball domineering Melo (who everyone, but Melo, recognizes he needs to cut the iso ball stuff), or not. Right now, he's not an all star this year, and it's going to be difficult for him to get there playing second to Westbrook, but judging him on his current numbers, at the 1/4 way mark on the season, is pointless. 

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

22 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

The ongoing discussion comparing Vic's year to Paul's is not 'bashing' George.  

Hmm. Not buying it Fouls, but ok 

[Billingsley99]

24 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It might be that list. I wasn't referencing it as the end all/be all of player rankings, just saying according to many the West has a majority of the better players, and we know historically the All-Star Team is selected largely off perception. 

One 

19 minutes ago, BGleas said:

First time I've heard that point from you in our discussion today. I wasn't referencing who got the better end of the deal whatsoever. I was responding the 5fouls question about the All-Star Game, which has nothing to do with the trade. Just a fact that it's easier to make the All-Star Team from the East. 

18 minutes ago, BGleas said:

 I did not reference that in today's discussion.  That's been an ongoing theme throughout this thread.  I quoted the wrong post.  I really like watching this Pacer team and could not stand watching last year's group

 

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Hmm. Not buying it Fouls, but ok 

I'm not selling anything.  Vic is a former IU player.  The Pacers are the 'home' team for a large percentage of the posters on this board.  It only stands to reason that we continue to analyze the trade that brought him home.

[Hoosierhoopster]

4 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'm not selling anything.  Vic is a former IU player.  The Pacers are the 'home' team for a large percentage of the posters on this board.  It only stands to reason that we continue to analyze the trade that brought him home.

Except that it always devolves into the posts about PG whining to the refs, etc. Not trying to dissuade the dialogue, but the PG bashing has been pretty obvious in this thread, and I'm not interested in participating further in it. Love what Vic is bringing, for himself, realizing his all star potential. Remember when you and me went back and forth on him on the old board, and I was the one saying I thought he would be an all star, whereas you were questioning whether he would ever be any better than he was playing, at the time, on Orlando? For the record, again, Vic is my favorite Hoosier, and I've always thought he had all star potential -- that, however, does not make him on PG's level. He's not there, but the way he's playing now, maybe he will get there at some point.

[hoosierBGH]

15 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'm not selling anything.  Vic is a former IU player.  The Pacers are the 'home' team for a large percentage of the posters on this board.  It only stands to reason that we continue to analyze the trade that brought him home.

 I heard today that ratings for Pacers games are up 15% from last year so far. I'm not surprised and I expect the ratings difference to increase as more people realize how entertaining this Pacers team is with the addition of Vic and Sabonis. 

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, hoosierBGH said:

 I heard today that ratings for Pacers games are up 15% from last year so far. I'm not surprised and I expect the ratings difference to increase as more people realize how entertaining this Pacers team is with the addition of Vic and Sabonis. 

I've watched more of the Pacers this year than the last 3 years combined.

[Billingsley99]

20 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Fair enough -- clarifying: All Star games are picked by conference -- the conference you are in matters. The best players are collectively, hands down, in the West. The competition for all star spots in the West is much steeper -- it just is, because of how they pick the All Star teams.

They also do not pick players 1-15, they pick by position. What position you are matters as to whether or not you are picked for the All Star game, because they pick by position.

Then there's the simple fact that the All Star game is not picked by who is the best player, 1-15 or otherwise, it is a popularity contest, with fans getting the lion share of the share of a player's vote, followed up (up to this season) by media, and then for non-starters, coaches. This year it's fans, media and players, I don't recall the breakdown, but it will continue to be largely a popularity contest. Reggie made 5 All Star games in 18 years. Think about that.

Then if you want to look on a pure star/talent basis for selecting small forwards, in the West it pretty clearly goes 1) Durant, 2) Kawhii, and the All Star game selections are made as "forwards," not just small forwards, so then you include in that top group players like Anthony Davis, Marc Gasol, Draymond, etc.

But for whatever it matters -- and as much as I personally like PG as a player while others on here have some kind of ax to grind on him -- I am far from alone in considering him one of the top players and forward in the League. Here's a couple: 1) who are the top 5 SF's in the League, Sept. 2017, #5: PG; https://www.isportsweb.com/2017/09/27/who-are-the-top-5-small-forwards-in-the-nba/  -- this ranking, which is hard to dispute at this point, goes 1. LeBron, 2. Durant, 3. Greek Freak (though he's not really a 3), 4. Kawhi (I'd put him 2 or 3), and 5. PG; 2) Hollinger's NBA player stats 2017-18, top 5 PER by SF's, PG#4 http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf/league/west ; 3) another small forward ranking placing PG as #4, http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2701554-nba-position-power-rankings-end-of-regular-season-edition-small-forwards ;  I could go on, but as this thread has demonstrated,, what's the point, stats and what he's demonstrated for years are just ignored.

Regardless, PG is clearly not having a great year, so far. He had two exceptional games when Carmelo was out (golly, wonder why), and now that Melo is back and it's all iso ball again, he's had an up and down couple of games and most recently a horrible shooting game (though he had 10 assists). It's going to be an interesting year for PG, and for that matter Melo. They, along with Westbrook, had better go away from iso ball, or they're going to be at best mediocre, and could actually miss the playoffs. Btw, they just dominated Golden State, in a game where all three played fantastic ball. That's the team they're capable of being. But we'll see if they get it together regularly, and whether PG can adapt to playing with ridiculously iso-ball domineering Melo (who everyone, but Melo, recognizes he needs to cut the iso ball stuff), or not. Right now, he's not an all star this year, and it's going to be difficult for him to get there playing second to Westbrook, but judging him on his current numbers, at the 1/4 way mark on the season, is pointless. 

 

Believe it or not I am aware of how the All Star teams are selected.  In your first message about this topic yourself PGis clearly a top 10 player.  I disagreed with that. If he is top 10 then there is no excuse to not make an all star team regardless of conference 

I know the bulk of great talent is in the West. I am too lazy to look it up but when was the last time a healthy top 10 player did not make the All Star team?  Based on all that has been said does one assume then that PG  only made the All Star team because the East is weak. If so then it's hard to say he is top 10 or 15.  I am not comparing Vic to PG. But I would take a hungry combo of Vic and Sabonis that play like they want to be here over  a player that clearly stated he did not want to.  At times last year his play reflected that attitude.   In his defense the team Larry built had a lot to do with that in my opinion.

 

[IU Scott]

5 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Except that it always devolves into the posts about PG whining to the refs, etc. Not trying to dissuade the dialogue, but the PG bashing has been pretty obvious in this thread, and I'm not interested in participating further in it. Love what Vic is bringing, for himself, realizing his all star potential. Remember when you and me went back and forth on him on the old board, and I was the one saying I thought he would be an all star, whereas you were questioning whether he would ever be any better than he was playing, at the time, on Orlando? For the record, again, Vic is my favorite Hoosier, and I've always thought he had all star potential -- that, however, does not make him on PG's level. He's not there, but the way he's playing now, maybe he will get there at some point.

Then don't because nobody is making you read these post.

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Then don't because nobody is making you read these post.

Well, it kinda is his job...

[5fouls]

Victor Oladipo has a better singing voice than Paul George.  

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2017/11/28/victor-oladipo-singing-pacers-locker-room-cracks-up-lance-stephenson/900711001/

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Then don't because nobody is making you read these post.

Brilliant. Thanks for the snarky post. 

[Indykev]

16 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Better chance at being an all-star this year.  

Vic or PG13?

I have watched OKC twice this year and PG is the same old i'm going to get mine player he always was. Maybe even more so now with Westbrook and Melo machine gunning from anywhere. Vic by far has the better chance. I hope he does and PG is sitting on the beach some where.

[Indykev]

9 hours ago, 5fouls said:

The ongoing discussion comparing Vic's year to Paul's is not 'bashing' George.  

Paul George Sucks!