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14 minutes ago, BGleas said:

We're not really in much disagreement, though I don't agree that what people are saying is all hindsight. 

People didn't think Harden was going to be a future MVP, I said that exact thing in my post, but he was projected at that time as a potential future all-star. It was commonly held belief even at that time that Harden was going to be a star and that the system (coming off the bench to play behind Durant and Westbrook) was holding him back. The view on Harden at the time was that almost anywhere else he'd be a featured player, not just a solid 17 ppg player Sixth Man. That's why he was commanding the max as a bench player, and while OKC did offer him $52M, other teams were already lining up to offer him the max. 

OKC basically had to pick three of Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden, and they chose the first three. Again, maybe not the wrong move given that Durant, Westbrook and Harden all need the ball and there's only so much to go around, but I do wonder if the Thunder were in the same situation today (in the super team era) if they maybe choose to try and move Ibaka and another contract and just roll the dice with the three stars. 

 

From where I am sitting OKC hasn't done anything right...and that isn't looking in the rear view mirror.

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2 hours ago, BGleas said:

We're not really in much disagreement, though I don't agree that what people are saying is all hindsight. 

People didn't think Harden was going to be a future MVP, I said that exact thing in my post, but he was projected at that time as a potential future all-star. It was commonly held belief even at that time that Harden was going to be a star and that the system (coming off the bench to play behind Durant and Westbrook) was holding him back. The view on Harden at the time was that almost anywhere else he'd be a featured player, not just a solid 17 ppg player Sixth Man. That's why he was commanding the max as a bench player, and while OKC did offer him $52M, other teams were already lining up to offer him the max. 

OKC basically had to pick three of Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden, and they chose the first three. Again, maybe not the wrong move given that Durant, Westbrook and Harden all need the ball and there's only so much to go around, but I do wonder if the Thunder were in the same situation today (in the super team era) if they maybe choose to try and move Ibaka and another contract and just roll the dice with the three stars. 

 

Yeah we’re not much in disagreement here, though wondering whether if they were in the same situation today they might choose differently is that they would do so with the benefit of hindsight. 

Pretty crazy to consider how different the dialogue would be if Durant and Westbrook hadn’t choked away that 3-1 WC finals against GS. They should have won the championship that year but both played terribly and then Klay went off, they lose the series, and then Durant leavesto join the team that beat him, instead of coming back and going for the W the next season. All of this discussion basically glosses over that collapse and Durant departure, both of which changed everything. 

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So I was debating this with some friends today.  Does trading for Westbrook (at the right price of course) make sense for the Heat?  My friends acted like I was crazy for thinking so.   I get it... 4 years $170M left on his contract, shot terribly last year (.428/.290/.656... gross), etc., etc.

But the way I look at it, why not?  The Heat have already pushed all their chips in on winning now by signing Butler to his own massive contract, which will hurt the value of their first round picks.  They don’t have their 2021 or 2023 draft picks, depending on their draft position.  They’re pretty much capped out for the next three seasons.  Why not trade Dragic, Winslow, some other scrub, and a protected first rounder for Westbrook?  (Depending on the market, they might even be able to get a better deal than that).  Westbrook is still a top 15-20 player at worst for the next two seasons, and I think they’re a top 4 team in the East with him and Butler.  Sure, they won’t win a title, but they’ll be fighting just to make the playoffs over the entire course of Butler’s contract with the roster as it currently stands.  I think it makes sense.

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39 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

So I was debating this with some friends today.  Does trading for Westbrook (at the right price of course) make sense for the Heat?  My friends acted like I was crazy for thinking so.   I get it... 4 years $170M left on his contract, shot terribly last year (.428/.290/.656... gross), etc., etc.

But the way I look at it, why not?  The Heat have already pushed all their chips in on winning now by signing Butler to his own massive contract, which will hurt the value of their first round picks.  They don’t have their 2021 or 2023 draft picks, depending on their draft position.  They’re pretty much capped out for the next three seasons.  Why not trade Dragic, Winslow, some other scrub, and a protected first rounder for Westbrook?  (Depending on the market, they might even be able to get a better deal than that).  Westbrook is still a top 15-20 player at worst for the next two seasons, and I think they’re a top 4 team in the East with him and Butler.  Sure, they won’t win a title, but they’ll be fighting just to make the playoffs over the entire course of Butler’s contract with the roster as it currently stands.  I think it makes sense.

Butler has been a malcontent everywhere he has been. Is not an elite shooter (worse than PG by a good bit) so a downgrade as a #2 and elite players don’t really like playing with Westbrook. Durant bolted..Victor had his worst season...PG gave up...two huge egos I don’t think fit. Best option is to go to a desperate situation...to me that is Minny (have to shake up that roster to keep KAT around and haven’t been able to even get in the playoffs with this roster)...and the Knicks. Knicks are a disaster but need a star to bring people in to keep interest or risk losing even more the spot light to Brooklyn. NY just needs to get to the playoffs...it isn’t even about winning a championship now...they need to win to show free agents it’s a place that just needs some pieces to get over the top...right now no one will go there because it looks like a sh!t show. I don’t know who can take on that contract and build anything around it and honestly I don’t know if Westbrook’s play is something you can win it all with but one team needs a shake up and the other needs attention/relevance and at least him throwing up triple doubles will entertain the masses. Heat...I don’t see it working. They don’t have cap space or picks or pieces to land him...just like Paul and Wall are untradable Westbrook is going to be hard to move and get good value.

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Yeah we’re not much in disagreement here, though wondering whether if they were in the same situation today they might choose differently is that they would do so with the benefit of hindsight. 

Pretty crazy to consider how different the dialogue would be if Durant and Westbrook hadn’t choked away that 3-1 WC finals against GS. They should have won the championship that year but both played terribly and then Klay went off, they lose the series, and then Durant leavesto join the team that beat him, instead of coming back and going for the W the next season. All of this discussion basically glosses over that collapse and Durant departure, both of which changed everything. 

I’m saying without hindsight. If Harden, Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka were the same age now as they were in 2012, but you dumped them into this ‘Super Team’ era, I think maybe the decision would be different. You’d maybe look longer at trying to move Ibaka to save money and give Harden the max to build a three-headed monster. 

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1 minute ago, BGleas said:

I’m saying without hindsight. If Harden, Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka were the same age now as they were in 2012, but you dumped them into this ‘Super Team’ era, I think maybe the decision would be different. You’d maybe look longer at trying to move Ibaka to save money and give Harden the max to build a three-headed monster. 

Who knows, I don’t know how we can look at that objectively without the benefit of hindsight. Ibaka was a stud then. Decision might be different but you just don’t know if Harden will take that next step. You absolutely do not move Westbrook or Durant. 

Looking at today’s outside game though, with the rule changes to open up outside shooting, then yes that seems more likely.

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17 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Butler has been a malcontent everywhere he has been. Is not an elite shooter (worse than PG by a good bit) so a downgrade as a #2 and elite players don’t really like playing with Westbrook. Durant bolted..Victor had his worst season...PG gave up...two huge egos I don’t think fit. Best option is to go to a desperate situation...to me that is Minny (have to shake up that roster to keep KAT around and haven’t been able to even get in the playoffs with this roster)...and the Knicks. Knicks are a disaster but need a star to bring people in to keep interest or risk losing even more the spot light to Brooklyn. NY just needs to get to the playoffs...it isn’t even about winning a championship now...they need to win to show free agents it’s a place that just needs some pieces to get over the top...right now no one will go there because it looks like a sh!t show. I don’t know who can take on that contract and build anything around it and honestly I don’t know if Westbrook’s play is something you can win it all with but one team needs a shake up and the other needs attention/relevance and at least him throwing up triple doubles will entertain the masses. Heat...I don’t see it working. They don’t have cap space or picks or pieces to land him...just like Paul and Wall are untradable Westbrook is going to be hard to move and get good value.

Yeah I don’t think those two would work well together, I could be wrong but as neither shoots well and both want the ball in crunch time, think that would fail. Knicks seem likely to me , we’ll see 

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Durant bolted because he was sick of the ball sticking in his point guards hands. Let’s be real...I played point and I can tell you from years of experience that guys liked playing with me because I would sacrifice my scoring to set them up. I was a darn good shooter myself but they recognized how hard I worked to make it easy for them. Shooters and scorers love to play with unselfish players and play where the ball moves freely and offense doesn’t stagnate. It was reported through that season Durant was growing upset with the amount of shots and lack of ball movement with Russ. Even in that series Russ was taking as many if not more shots than anyone on the team. Durant is a diva for sure but he wanted to play on a team that he knew Everyone was a willing passer. Heck the MVP of the league took a back seat to him...deferred to him for the betterment of his team. Russ doesn’t defer to anyone. Sure he gets a lot of assist but that is also because the ball is always in his hands. He is basically Carmelo Of point guards. Ball dominant guards are hard to play off of because you don’t feel involved in the offense. Hard to get comfortable in the game when you get so few touches. Yes they both choked it away (they both shot horribly the last few games and GS got super hot from 3 with Klay and Steph both) but in the end Kevin leaving had a lot to do with Russ.

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6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Yeah I don’t think those two would work well together, I could be wrong but as neither shoots well and both want the ball in crunch time, think that would fail. Knicks seem likely to me , we’ll see 

Yeah..not sure how he fits on a contender...could be a team that just wants to make a splash and put butts in the seats...ala Knicks.

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Warriors waive Livingston - one of the now several teams in win now mode could strengthen their bench with him, dude is good in 15 min or so and a great locker room presence with championships under his belt 

Not sure how he could fit into the Spurs rotation, but he would be great as a mentor with Murray and White. I'm just not sure they can use a fourth PG/CG.

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7 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

So I was debating this with some friends today.  Does trading for Westbrook (at the right price of course) make sense for the Heat?  My friends acted like I was crazy for thinking so.   I get it... 4 years $170M left on his contract, shot terribly last year (.428/.290/.656... gross), etc., etc.

But the way I look at it, why not?  The Heat have already pushed all their chips in on winning now by signing Butler to his own massive contract, which will hurt the value of their first round picks.  They don’t have their 2021 or 2023 draft picks, depending on their draft position.  They’re pretty much capped out for the next three seasons.  Why not trade Dragic, Winslow, some other scrub, and a protected first rounder for Westbrook?  (Depending on the market, they might even be able to get a better deal than that).  Westbrook is still a top 15-20 player at worst for the next two seasons, and I think they’re a top 4 team in the East with him and Butler.  Sure, they won’t win a title, but they’ll be fighting just to make the playoffs over the entire course of Butler’s contract with the roster as it currently stands.  I think it makes sense.

I said as a joke earlier in this thread to pair Westbrook with Jimmy Butler and burn down the franchise.  I'm not so sure that isn't more likely than success for that pairing.  Yikes.

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4 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

I said as a joke earlier in this thread to pair Westbrook with Jimmy Butler and burn down the franchise.  I'm not so sure that isn't more likely than success for that pairing.  Yikes.

Eh, I think that’s a little overblown.  I’m definitely not a big Westbrook fan, and you obviously can’t win a title with him as your best player, but he’s still an elite scorer/playmaker.  And yeah, Jimmy is a tool, but he came to the Sixers halfway through the season and they came pretty close to knocking off the champs in the second round.  They’re probably the two most competitive players in the game, so I think they’d respect each other.

If I was building a team, I definitely wouldn’t choose to build it around Butler and Westbrook, but now that the Heat have already signed Butler, I think it makes sense.  Who else are the Heat going to get to pair with Butler that will give them a chance to advance in the playoffs?

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28 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Regarding Harden, this is an interesting article.  I recall Bill Simmons and his cadre of basketball analysts calling the Harden trade legendarily stupid when it happened, not later. 

https://grantland.com/features/the-harden-disaster/

Good find, and what that article reiterates is that even at that time Harden was thought of as a max, star player. Everyone knew he was way more than a 17 PPG sixth man, he was sacrificing for the good of the team. Teams were lined up to give him the max if he had hit restricted free agency with OKC, and teams don't line up to give max contracts to guys that come off the bench. While people probably weren't expecting him to be a future MVP,  most everyone knew he was a great player at the time. 

From Simmons column right after the trade to Houston: In the Thunder’s case, we only knew that they had three of the 20 best guys in the league, all under 25, all of whom loved playing together.

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17 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Again, it was his third season, he was averaging under 17 PPG, and they had to pay Westbrook, Durant and Ibaka. It's their fault?? OK. Absolutely no reason in the world they should have moved Westbrook then. 

You conveniently are leaving out that they just played in the Finals. Making the Finals is too hard to justify breaking the team up by trading a 6th man of the year, age 22, player averaging 16.8/4.1/3.7 in 31.4mpg. It clearly was a mistake then, in hindsight it became a disaster. Those 3 guys loved playing together and would have likely won multiple championships if they were kept intact. 

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7 minutes ago, cybergates said:

You conveniently are leaving out that they just played in the Finals. Making the Finals is too hard to justify breaking the team up by trading a 6th man of the year, age 22, player averaging 16.8/4.1/3.7 in 31.4mpg. It clearly was a mistake then, in hindsight it became a disaster. Those 3 guys loved playing together and would have likely won multiple championships if they were kept intact. 

I'm not conveniently leaving anything out -- and you're just glossing over the main point here, there are only so many guys a team can pay, and again you have Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden. Do you think they should have moved Westbrook or Durant or paid them less? Of course not. All of this is hindsight and then of course there's the simple fact that Harden and Westbrook basically play the same position and both are extremely ball dominant guards. Convenient? Ok.

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Here's a pretty good retrospective look at the Thunder's decision to trade Harden, making points that support both 'sides' of this discussion:

https://thunderousintentions.com/2017/10/27/the-harden-trade-five-years-later/3/

Some of the points:

The bigger issue here is why the Thunder had to chose between anybody. Again, Harden still had one year left on his rookie scale deal. The Thunder could have gone into the season with all three stars and let Harden go to restricted free agency. Then, after the season ended, could have matched any offer. To make room for the money he would have earned, the Thunder could have dumped salaries like Kendrick Perkins. But money was only part of the issue. The Thunder had legitimate fears Harden would demand to start and have a larger role, thus creating an uncomfortable locker room atmosphere, similar to what the Reggie Jackson situation eventually became.

Starting could certainly have been feasible, but the Thunder have always had a defense-first mentality. It’s why Thabo Sefolosha started during the Harden days, and it’s why Andre Roberson is starting now. If there’s one negative about Harden’s game, it’s his defense. And in terms of a larger role, it would have been difficult. Durant, Westbrook and Harden are all-ball dominant players. With only one ball, it could have been a challenge to get all three desirable touches.

- Again, Westbrook and Harden in particular are ball-dominant guards who need the ball in their hands and really play point.

And

There is a small portion of fans that wonder what would have happened if the Thunder had traded Westbrook instead of Harden. There are two main reasons in favor of this argument. The first is the Thunder would have gotten a much better package in return. The second is that Durant may not have left if Harden was on the team instead of Westbrook. It’s certainly an interesting argument, but it seems crazy to think Harden would have become the player he is today if he were still on the Thunder.

And

One of the big misconceptions about this trade is that the Thunder chose Ibaka over Harden. Two months before Harden was traded, the Thunder signed Ibaka to a 4-year 48 million dollar deal. But, the Thunder weren’t choosing between Harden and Ibaka. They were really choosing between Harden and Russell Westbrook. Westbrook was clearly the better player at the time, and it’s certainly more acceptable to say he remains the better player.

- Westbrook was lighting it up and the star next to Durant. Harden is the better player now (imo), but he wasn't then.

And

The Rockets received Harden, Daequan Cook, and Lazar Hayward.

The Thunder received Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, a 2013 first round pick that became Steven Adams, a 2013 second round pick that became Alex Abrines, and a 2014 first round pick that became Mitch McGary,

At face value, this trade has become a nightmare for OKC. The obvious reason is that Harden has become one of the league’s best and brightest starts. Since joining Houston, Harden has been to five All-Star games, is a three-time first-team All-NBA member, and is a two-time MVP runner-up. He’s led the Rockets to two Western Conference Finals appearances, the same number of times as the Thunder have been the past five years.

- Aside, lol at McGary

Kevin Martin was a nice player in his one season in OKC. He put up similar numbers to Harden in his final season with the Thunder. Martin was also a big reason the Westbrook-less Thunder were able to fend off the Rockets in the first round of the playoffs in 2013. Unfortunately for the Thunder, they were unable to bring back the free-agent-to-be as Martin signed with the Minnesota Timberwolves at the end of the season.

Part of the reason Oklahoma City traded Harden to Houston was because they felt they would be receiving a long-term replacement at shooting guard in Jeremy Lamb. Picked 12th in the 2012 draft, Lamb seemed like a promising NBA wing. The 6’5 guard looked to have the size and skill to be a quality NBA player. For many reasons, most notably attitude and effort, Lamb simply never panned out. After three underwhelming seasons, Lamb was shipped to the Charlotte Hornets for a second round pick.

Or

It’s also important to give the Rockets credit for making this move and developing Harden. A good number of franchises would never have traded so many first round draft picks. The Rockerts, who were in desperate need of a franchise player at the time, clearly saw potential in Harden. Rockets General Manager Daryl Morey, who pulled off the trade, also deserves major credit for steering Harden’s career back in the right direction.

And

After a disappointing 2016 season, where the Rockets finished just 41-41, Morey hired Mike D’Antoni to be the team’s head coach. D’Antoni was coming off two underwhelming stints as coach of the Knicks and Lakers, and looked as if his coaching career would come to an end. But, Morey saw what D’Antoni, an offensive minded coach, could do for Harden. He turned the Rockets star into a point guard and helped make Houston one of the best offenses in the NBA. Had it not been for Westbrook’s historic season, Harden would have been last year’s MVP, taking the misery of this trade to a new level.

 

It's really easy to look back now and say the Thunder blew it. It's just not that simple. Harden developed with the Rockets as the starting point guard, at least as ball dominant as Westbrook. In addition to having to pay Durant, Westbrook and Harden, you have to have room for all three together on the floor and playing off Westbrook is not the game that Harden developed in becoming an MVP.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I'm not conveniently leaving anything out -- and you're just glossing over the main point here, there are only so many guys a team can pay, and again you have Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden. Do you think they should have moved Westbrook or Durant or paid them less? Of course not. All of this is hindsight and then of course there's the simple fact that Harden and Westbrook basically play the same position and both are extremely ball dominant guards. Convenient? Ok.

Your next post strengthens my argument. Thanks for that.

He wasn't a FA so they didn't have to move him, Westbrook or Durant or pay them less. They jumped the gun.

Of course Harden's numbers wouldn't match what they ended up in HOU if they kept him, but in OKC he could have been more of SG and left PG to Westbrook.

Winning cures (almost) everything, if they brought back a Finals team intact, there is a good chance they would have reached/won the Finals in 2013 compensating the owners well enough to consider going into the luxury tax to keep everyone (which they ended up going into the luxury tax anyway in subsequent years without Harden anyway I'm guessing). With Bird rights, no hard cap, limitations on max salary, etc it certainly was possible for them to keep them all. The unknown/upcoming spike that allowed GS to sign Durant would have helped them out as well. 

Obviously a ton of what ifs, but even without hind sight, many (maybe even most) thought it was a mistake to trade Harden, especially coming off a Final appearance. I remember being shocked by it and trying unsuccessfully to trade for him in my dynasty fantasy basketball league at the time. I can't remember one person saying that they thought OKC did the right thing at the time. 

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27 minutes ago, cybergates said:

Your next post strengthens my argument. Thanks for that.

He wasn't a FA so they didn't have to move him, Westbrook or Durant or pay them less. They jumped the gun.

Of course Harden's numbers wouldn't match what they ended up in HOU if they kept him, but in OKC he could have been more of SG and left PG to Westbrook.

Winning cures (almost) everything, if they brought back a Finals team intact, there is a good chance they would have reached/won the Finals in 2013 compensating the owners well enough to consider going into the luxury tax to keep everyone (which they ended up going into the luxury tax anyway in subsequent years without Harden anyway I'm guessing). With Bird rights, no hard cap, limitations on max salary, etc it certainly was possible for them to keep them all. The unknown/upcoming spike that allowed GS to sign Durant would have helped them out as well. 

Obviously a ton of what ifs, but even without hind sight, many (maybe even most) thought it was a mistake to trade Harden, especially coming off a Final appearance. I remember being shocked by it and trying unsuccessfully to trade for him in my dynasty fantasy basketball league at the time. I can't remember one person saying that they thought OKC did the right thing at the time. 

Yes, see I don't cherry pick my way through articles, I'm not posting to "win" arguments here. It's an interesting discussion. 

The thing is though that Harden is not a  shooting guard, his game grew because he was the 'man' in Houston with the ball in his hands, that is clearly who he is, just as that is who Westbrook is. I'm not sure why you just assume he could have (or would have wanted to) be more of a 2-guard, playing under Westbrook. Everything he has done since is directly contrary to that, he's as ball dominant a guard as you can get. The article notes the locker room / position issues the Thunder were probably considering -- again, Westbrook was their star. 

The article points out that the money issue is not as big an issue as I thought, however. And there is and was reason to question the trade, especially the timing -- but the article also points out who they got and thought they were getting in K Martin and Lamb, and that they got Adams, etc. End of the day, yeah, there's a lot of hindsight / second-guessing here. My opinion is that you don't get the Harden that he became -- a ball dominant starting point / MVP -- playing next to Westbrook. They're both incredible players (and both with major faults, harden's a crap defender and Westbrook's generally a crap shooter with bad decision-making) -- that doesn't mean they would work well starting together. 

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Another thing of note.  Aside from Durant joining the winningest team ever, none of these guys are winners.  I have no problem taking that shot at them,  including Durant, which I think the Knicks made the first correct decision in modern history concerning his max contract.  

Harden, career playoff choke artist.   Disappears in crunch time and generally doesn't play defense.  

Durant, the case can certainly be made that he is a winner and sacrificed being alpha.  He'll be a hall of fame and considered a great scorer that has become an all NBA defender.  He also had a pressureless situation along side 2 of the best shooters the NBA has ever seen.  

Westbrook.  Just doesn't play winning ball.  It will be interesting to see if he 'resurrects' his career.  Something silly to think about after averaging a triple double 2 years in a row, and just one year removed from mvp.  

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I thought it was interesting that Kawhi chose a shorter contract and essentially makes him a free agent again in 2021 class along with George. Seems to me like they are willing to try in Clipper Land but if it doesn't hit during these next two seasons they'll be back at the free agency window again in short order. Maybe just waiting for Lebron to retire and move to Lakers in 2 seasons. Haha.

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4 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

I thought it was interesting that Kawhi chose a shorter contract and essentially makes him a free agent again in 2021 class along with George. Seems to me like they are willing to try in Clipper Land but if it doesn't hit during these next two seasons they'll be back at the free agency window again in short order. Maybe just waiting for Lebron to retire and move to Lakers in 2 seasons. Haha.

Anything is possible in this day and age in the NBA.

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