NBA Thread

[IU Scott]

Saw that the Pelicans is trading Jrue Holiday nto the Bucks for Bledsoe,Hill and draft picks.

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

Curious who you think the super-teams are in Football and baseball.

Who mentioned super-teams? Scott was complaining about a star wanting to go to a better situation for them to win, which happens frequently in those sports. Football it's the hardest, but we see guys force their way out there too.

Basketball has the biggest impact of stars because guys play both ways and there are only five guys on the court, so it may have a larger impact, that doesn't mean the stars are behaving different. Heck, in the case of Harden he turned down over $50M per year because he wants to win; shouldn't we applaud that he wants to win? Now he has to want to win AND do it in the way you guys deem best? 

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

I have not heard stars in either one of those leagues talking about playing together and making a super team.  I just test and one of the qoutes from Harden is he is not interested in an extension but he is worried about a trade to the Nets

Yes, Gronk didn't retire to get out of New England then they didn't force a trade for less than his value when he wanted to come back to play with Brady.

Leveon Bell didn't force his way out of Pittsburgh.

Antonio Brown hasn't forced his way out of several situations. 

The franchise tag complicates things like crazy in football and stars STILL find a way to force their way out of situations they don't wan to be in. And guess what.... every worker in the world should get out of a situation they don't want to be in. The fact that they make more doesn't change that. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by KoB2011

[BGleas]

That is a lot to give up for Jrue Holiday. He's a really good player and leader, but that's a lot. 

I know the Celtics were tied to this one too, and while I would have loved to have him for sure, I thought swaping Hayward for him would have been a lateral move at best. 

[DC2345]

The Bucks are also going to acquire Bogdan Bogdanovic from the Kings for Donte Divincenzo, DJ Wilson, and Ersan Ilyasova. It's also sounding like Giannis is leaning toward signing the super max deal with the Bucks. 

[rico]

5 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

The Bucks are also going to acquire Bogdan Bogdanovic from the Kings for Donte Divincenzo, DJ Wilson, and Ersan Ilyasova. It's also sounding like Giannis is leaning toward signing the super max deal with the Bucks. 

Bucks going "all-in?"

[NotIThatLives]

10 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Saw that the Pelicans is trading Jrue Holiday nto the Bucks for Bledsoe,Hill and draft picks.

I'd call that good for both.  

[dwtaylor1055]

Decision day for Gordan Hayward.  Should he opt out, I firmly believe he'll give the Pacers the 1st chance to sign him.  If this is the case Myles IMO would likely be dealt to get some return assets and free up money to give Hayward a 3 or 4 year deal.  Or you keep Myles and flip Vic and get very little in return BUT you get rid of what has been a headache for the last few months. 

 

If the Pacers don't sign anyone(not including resigning someone from last year ala Justin Holiday) the offseason moves for the Pacers would be the continued development with Aaron Holiday and Goga Bitadze with the new coach that's arrived.  If Goga can take a step forward similar to what Aaron did between year one and year two that is a very big win.  

[DC2345]

1 hour ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Decision day for Gordan Hayward.  Should he opt out, I firmly believe he'll give the Pacers the 1st chance to sign him.  If this is the case Myles IMO would likely be dealt to get some return assets and free up money to give Hayward a 3 or 4 year deal.  Or you keep Myles and flip Vic and get very little in return BUT you get rid of what has been a headache for the last few months. 

 

If the Pacers don't sign anyone(not including resigning someone from last year ala Justin Holiday) the offseason moves for the Pacers would be the continued development with Aaron Holiday and Goga Bitadze with the new coach that's arrived.  If Goga can take a step forward similar to what Aaron did between year one and year two that is a very big win.  

I really hope this happens. Assuming Vic now stays until at least the deadline a starting lineup of Brogdon, Vic, Hayword, Warren, and Sabonis just seems like a much better fit for flexability in the NBA than that group with Myles. I won't speculate on the bench because that could change but it would just be a lot more interesting of a team imo. 

[dwtaylor1055]

6 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

I really hope this happens. Assuming Vic now stays until at least the deadline a starting lineup of Brogdon, Vic, Hayword, Warren, and Sabonis just seems like a much better fit for flexability in the NBA than that group with Myles. I won't speculate on the bench because that could change but it would just be a lot more interesting of a team imo. 

Yes I think a starting lineup of Brogdon, Vic, Hayward, Warren and Sabonis is a better fit in todays game.  4 guys that can step behind the arc and stroke the 3 ball(Sabonis worst out of the starting 5).  

Bench is a major wild card entering this offseason

[BobSaccamanno]

2 hours ago, rico said:

Bucks going "all-in?"

I hope Giannis signs the Supermax.  I just think it’s more fun that way.  I think small market teams developing is good for the sport.  In that same football market, you wouldn’t have to worry about Favre or Rodgers leaving and no one cares that they stay in the same small market. Or 18 playing in Indianapolis.  And both franchises won Super Bowls. 

Baseball is the opposite. You have the Yankees and to an extent the Dodgers buying themselves into contention every year.  That’s tedious.  

[DC2345]

4 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I hope Giannis signs the Supermax.  I just think it’s more fun that way.  I think small market teams developing is good for the sport.  In that same football market, you wouldn’t have to worry about Favre or Rodgers leaving and no one cares that they stay in the same small market. Or 18 playing in Indianapolis.  And both franchises won Super Bowls. 

Baseball is the opposite. You have the Yankees and to an extent the Dodgers buying themselves into contention every year.  That’s tedious.  

All of those are good points. I do want to ask though why the Dodgers get lumped in like that as a team that's been buying players? I get that they are in LA but the only impactful player that they have that they did that with was Mookie and he was acquired via trade. He got big payday after the fact but most teams would've done that to keep him. Boston just wasn't smart enough to keep him. 

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, DC2345 said:

All of those are good points. I do want to ask though why the Dodgers get lumped in like that as a team that's been buying players? I get that they are in LA but the only impactful player that they have that they did that with was Mookie and he was acquired via trade. He got big payday after the fact but most teams would've done that to keep him. Boston just wasn't smart enough to keep him. 

I agree it’s not as egregious as the Yankees. That’s why I threw on the “to an extent.”  I also respect their drafting and farm system as they drafted Seager, Lux, Buehler, Will Smith and more.

But small markets could never afford the Betts contact.  So i think we have to acknowledge that the Dodgers do take advantage of having deep pockets.  They spend money.   Smaller market teams don’t have that kind of payroll.  

[NotIThatLives]

1 hour ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I hope Giannis signs the Supermax. 

Me too because that means less talent around him.  Guys aren't taking paycuts to go Milwaukee to chase rings with Giannis.  Not until he proves he can deliver a ring by carrying leftovers.  And honestly, he has now 2 all stars with him.  Holiday at point and Middleton.

They are sacrificing depth.  Lopez was nice and fit the role well.  Hill was shooting great at 46%.  DiVincenzo was a nice complementary guy, who may still breakout more.  I'm not sure they have actually gotten better, so far.  Bledsoe was a scoring threat.

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, DC2345 said:

All of those are good points. I do want to ask though why the Dodgers get lumped in like that as a team that's been buying players? I get that they are in LA but the only impactful player that they have that they did that with was Mookie and he was acquired via trade. He got big payday after the fact but most teams would've done that to keep him. Boston just wasn't smart enough to keep him. 

They had the second highest payroll in baseball..... 

[KoB2011]

41 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Me too because that means less talent around him.  Guys aren't taking paycuts to go Milwaukee to chase rings with Giannis.  Not until he proves he can deliver a ring by carrying leftovers.  And honestly, he has now 2 all stars with him.  Holiday at point and Middleton.

They are sacrificing depth.  Lopez was nice and fit the role well.  Hill was shooting great at 46%.  DiVincenzo was a nice complementary guy, who may still breakout more.  I'm not sure they have actually gotten better, so far.  Bledsoe was a scoring threat.

They still have Brook Lopez, I'm not sure Robin isn't an easily replaceable player. They need to get another guard or wing, but I think their starting lineup certainly took a big step forward. Is it enough? We shall see. 

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, DC2345 said:

All of those are good points. I do want to ask though why the Dodgers get lumped in like that as a team that's been buying players? I get that they are in LA but the only impactful player that they have that they did that with was Mookie and he was acquired via trade. He got big payday after the fact but most teams would've done that to keep him. Boston just wasn't smart enough to keep him. 

The thing with the Dodgers that is different from smaller markets is that they can afford to keep all of their home grown players.  Small market teams can draft well but once those players become free agents they pretty much lose them or have to trade them.

[GaloisGroupe]

2 hours ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I agree it’s not as egregious as the Yankees. That’s why I threw on the “to an extent.”  I also respect their drafting and farm system as they drafted Seager, Lux, Buehler, Will Smith and more.

But small markets could never afford the Betts contact.  So i think we have to acknowledge that the Dodgers do take advantage of having deep pockets.  They spend money.   Smaller market teams don’t have that kind of payroll.  

I agree that the dodgers could not maintain their team without deep pockets (it is expensive to keep players), but I think the "buy the team" is really unfair. I think the highest profile free agent signing (at the time of the signing) that played a role in the WS was Pollock. Those that did not come through the minors (many mentioned, but also Kershaw, Bellinger, May, Urias, Jansen,...) were largely clever "scrap heap" acquisitions  (e.g., Turner, Taylor, Hernandez, Muncy...).

Obviously, Betts put them over the top, but they were probably as good as anyone in baseball even if they still had Verdugo (also from their minor system) in right. It is not like he was a terrible player.

[BobSaccamanno]

14 minutes ago, GaloisGroupe said:

I agree that the dodgers could not maintain their team without deep pockets (it is expensive to keep players), but I think the "buy the team" is really unfair. I think the highest profile free agent signing (at the time of the signing) that played a role in the WS was Pollock. Those that did not come through the minors (many mentioned, but also Kershaw, Bellinger, May, Urias, Jansen,...) were largely clever "scrap heap" acquisitions  (e.g., Turner, Taylor, Hernandez, Muncy...).

Obviously, Betts put them over the top, but they were probably as good as anyone in baseball even if they still had Verdugo (also from their minor system) in right. It is not like he was a terrible player.

That’s fine, but they are still taking advantage of deep pockets.  If Kershaw were on Cleveland or Cincinnati or KC, he’d be gone.  Betts is quite an exception don’t you think?  What’s his contract $350 M?   Another rich team in the Bosox wouldn’t even pay for him.  Are the Indians giving out that contract?  And he played great for the Dodgers.  They may not have won without him.  

My whole point here is that baseball does not have an even playing field.  Football does.  Basketball kind of does, but I’d like to see small market teams keep the guys they develop.  I like to see all markets benefit.  I’m not just saying that because I am from Indiana either.  Take college football.  Who here isn’t bored by Clemson, Alabama, OSU, and Georgia or LSU every GD year being in the playoffs?  It’d be fun to have it change up.  

Edited November 17, 2020 by BobSaccamanno

[NotIThatLives]

41 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

They still have Brook Lopez, I'm not sure Robin isn't an easily replaceable player. They need to get another guard or wing, but I think their starting lineup certainly took a big step forward. Is it enough? We shall see. 

You're right.  Robin is the lesser of the 2 and he's declining.  Their core four is nice.  

If Giannis signs a 50 per year deal, Middleton at 33, holiday at 26, brook lopez at 12, they have 11 mil to spend.  Read all in teams aren't likely to care about luxury this year with some announcement about a luxury tax discount of 20% if revenue is reduced at a certain percentage, can't remember what.  

[BobSaccamanno]

19 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

You're right.  Robin is the lesser of the 2 and he's declining.  Their core four is nice.  

If Giannis signs a 50 per year deal, Middleton at 33, holiday at 26, brook lopez at 12, they have 11 mil to spend.  Read all in teams aren't likely to care about luxury this year with some announcement about a luxury tax discount of 20% if revenue is reduced at a certain percentage, can't remember what.  

I’m not buying what you’re selling.  Last year, teams built the wall defense to stop Giannis.  But other than Middleton, nobody could come through and get buckets.  Bledsoe is complicated. He’s first team all defense and a good regular season player.  But when Giannis needed guys to take pressure off him in the playoffs, everyone tightened up.  Now they got Bogdan who is his buddy from Europe along with a tough two way player in Holiday.   Those guys address elements that were severely lacking.  

As far as finishing out the roster, they will get guys who want to win.  That happened last year and you would expect it again.  There are guys who want to contend and there’s opportunity to play there.  I’d much rather see Milwaukee be competitive and get some more fresh blood like Toronto.  

I agree with KoB, as usual, as they will need a wing defender who is tough.  Maybe somebody in the mold of one of the Morris twins.  

It sounds like Giannis is staying. I saw that on Twitter so it must be true.  They were playing it coy to make Miami and Dallas hesitate to spend this year.  

[IU Scott]

Don't understand some of these trades and the compensation for them.  Houston is trading Robert Covington to Portland for Trevor Ariza and a 21 and 22 first round picks.  How in the world is Robert Covington worth two first round picks and a player.

[BobSaccamanno]

Who do you guys like in the draft?  Mediocre draft.  The two guys I like at the top are Wiseman and Dani Avedija.   Wiseman I believe is undervalued because people poo poo bigs.  He is crazy long and mobile.  I expect him to be an impact guy as he gets stronger.  I’m enamored with Dani based on the clips I saw.  Very skilled guy at 6’10 and I think he will defend unlike a lot of EP players.  If the Chicago Bulls get him, that’s a steal.  They’ve been a mess but with Gar Forman gone, they may get resurrected although it will take time.  Their parts are disjointed and don’t remotely fit well together. I do think Markkenan can be better than he has shown.  Maybe Donavan brings that out.

  I have my doubts on Edwards and Ball.  Just not my cup of tea in terms of winning.  The other guy I like is Halliburton.   

Down the list, there are a ton of guys who are interchangeable.  From about 12-25, I’m not sure how much of a difference there is.  

Edited November 17, 2020 by BobSaccamanno

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Don't understand some of these trades and the compensation for them.  Houston is trading Robert Covington to Portland for Trevor Ariza and a 21 and 22 first round picks.  How in the world is Robert Covington worth two first round picks and a player.

I thought that too.  I think the analytics guys have studied draft picks.  After a handful of guys in each draft, they tend to be overvalued. The minute you drive the kid off the lot, his value dips.  I think the math guys have figured that out.  I think what you’re seeing is the devaluing of draft picks.  

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Who do you guys like in the draft?  Mediocre draft.  The two guys I like at the top are Wiseman and Dani Avedija.   Wiseman I believe is undervalued because people poo poo bigs.  He is crazy long and mobile.  I expect him to be an impact guy as he gets stronger.  I’m enamored with Dani based on the clips I saw.  Very skilled guy at 6’10 and I think he will defend unlike a lot of EP players.  I have my doubts on Edwards and Ball.  Just not my cup of tea in terms of winning.  The other guy I like is Halliburton.   

Down the list, there are a ton of guys who are interchangeable.  From about 12-25, I’m not sure how much of a difference there is.  

I don't see many all stars coming out of this draft and it is not a good year to have a top 5 pick.

Edited November 17, 2020 by IU Scott