dgambill Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Just now, BGleas said: True, though I don't view the Hawks as real contenders, even if they win this series. They've good, don't get me wrong, but in a healthy NBA they're not a real contender. They got lucky a bit with their draw. Not saying they aren't good by any means, and I completely agree on how they've built the team and the Bogs acquisition, but I don't view them as a true title contender, even if they win this series. So you don't think say Utah, Atlanta, Phoenix who are built with basically 1 star in most years are title contenders...you think the way to go is to have multiple star players? Not saying you are wrong at all but basically you need some form of a big 3 or at least two top 10 players like both LA teams have to be legit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 32 minutes ago, dgambill said: So you don't think say Utah, Atlanta, Phoenix who are built with basically 1 star in most years are title contenders...you think the way to go is to have multiple star players? Not saying you are wrong at all but basically you need some form of a big 3 or at least two top 10 players like both LA teams have to be legit. I think Phoenix and Utah are different than Atlanta. Utah has Donovan and Gobert, along with a quasi 3rd in Conley. Phoenix has Booker and Paul, as well as an emerging Ayton. At the end of the day, I'm just not as high on Trae Young as I am on those other top-line guys, and I think Utah and Phoenix have more around them. Also, with all of that said, with a healthy Embiid, Harden, Irving, LeBron and AD, etc., maybe Phoenix is the only of those three is a true contender this year, and even then I'd say they would be a long shot to win a title. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 hour ago, BGleas said: Completely agree with everything. I think Smart has to be the next move. This won't be easy to pull off for Stevens, but in order to compete with Brooklyn, Philly, Milwaukee, etc., he's got to find a way over the next year or so to get the Celtics another star player without having to give up Jaylen Brown to do so. They need to add a star to Tatum and Brown, and the only real assets they have at this point beyond future picks and the remaining trade exception from the Hayward deal, and maybe a sign and trade with Fournier, is moving Marcus Smart. I love Smart, but I think his time is running out in Boston. As you said, Stevens needs to do whatever he can to position the Celtics to be a title contender in the next 3 seasons as we head into the prime of Tatum and Brown. I don't think the Celtics have the assets currently and I actually don't love this guy, but you have to think at some point over the next year or two you'll hear rumblings about KAT. I don't think you can get a star on return for Smart. I see no other pieces on the Celtics that will net you a stat except for Brown. Toe Brown and Tatum play similar position so I would trade Brown which would net you a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, BGleas said: I think Phoenix and Utah are different than Atlanta. Utah has Donovan and Gobert, along with a quasi 3rd in Conley. Phoenix has Booker and Paul, as well as an emerging Ayton. At the end of the day, I'm just not as high on Trae Young as I am on those other top-line guys, and I think Utah and Phoenix have more around them. Also, with all of that said, with a healthy Embiid, Harden, Irving, LeBron and AD, etc., maybe Phoenix is the only of those three is a true contender this year, and even then I'd say they would be a long shot to win a title. Nope...great points..I even have felt Denver should have made a bigger move in the past couple years to get another star next to Jokic and Murray. I mean they have soo many pieces over the past couple years surely they could have made a better move then Aaron Gordon. Even still I'm not sure Porter Jr. can live up to that 3rd star. He is quite good but man...the window is now with Jokic...bigs don't stay in their prime for long. For you guys I think Brown is a great third option...find an electric guard and you guys may have something. I'm sure it will happen. The Bostons and Lakers etc always find a way to rise to the top. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 hour ago, IU Scott said: I don't think you can get a star on return for Smart. I see no other pieces on the Celtics that will net you a stat except for Brown. Toe Brown and Tatum play similar position so I would trade Brown which would net you a lot. It depends on who the other team is and the situation they're in with their star. Of course Jaylen Brown has much higher trade value than Marcus Smart, but if you come across a star that is essentially demanding to go to Boston to play with Tatum/Brown (not saying that will happen) or at least has Boston on a short list of destinations, then a package of Smart, Robert Williams and say Romeo Langford/Aaron Nesmith and 1-2 first round picks could net you a star player, especially if it's a star that only has a year left on their contract or something. Edit: Also note that Smart's contract expires after next season, so there is value in simply acquiring his contract, then you add in a bunch of young talent and picks, and you can maybe get lucky with a star player. Smart isn't netting you Antony Davis or Giannis or anything, but a 2nd tier star could be had. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 @BGleas so I'm trying to understand the financials of the deal...so the Celtics created another trade exception @7 million and also if they cut Horford before the 22/23 season they will save 32 million? I don't know their current situation but they very well could be making room for a max level contract with Smart coming off the books potentially next year and then Horford. The 23 class could change vastly but at the moment could consist of guys like KD, Beal, Kawhi, Middleton, Jokic, FVV, Brogdon....and who knows who might blow up before then...I gotta think instead of a major trade (which are hard to land the caliber star you would want especially matching salaries) that simply going into free agency with cap space would be the better scenario.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Going to say this...Jeanie Buss is so so so damn lucky she landed Lebron...she is working with netflix and HBO not only to exec produce a drama based on show time 80s lakers but also a comedy about front office in NBA....I mean really??? This is the person that took over....who dated Phil Jackson...producing tv shows and is running your franchise? Good luck when Lebron retires.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATX_sig Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 18 minutes ago, dgambill said: Going to say this...Jeanie Buss is so so so damn lucky she landed Lebron...she is working with netflix and HBO not only to exec produce a drama based on show time 80s lakers but also a comedy about front office in NBA....I mean really??? This is the person that took over....who dated Phil Jackson...producing tv shows and is running your franchise? Good luck when Lebron retires.... Players want to play in LA. Kawhi would have gone there had Lebron not. Luka will probably head there after Lebron. She is doing far better than her brother (was it?) who ran the team before her coup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 16 minutes ago, ATX_sig said: Players want to play in LA. Kawhi would have gone there had Lebron not. Luka will probably head there after Lebron. She is doing far better than her brother (was it?) who ran the team before her coup. Maybe it just runs on its own...just saying I wouldn't trust a front office that is focused on Hollywood...but you are probably right...maybe I'm just jaded lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergates Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 4 hours ago, BGleas said: They basically traded the 16th pick for Moses Brown who is a 21 year old 7-2 center who averaged 8ppg and 9rpg in 20mpg this season. You're most likely not getting that production from the 16th pick. Makes sense except Moses Brown went after the 16th pick, undrafted in fact. So you can get that production from the 16th pick or later if you draft well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, cybergates said: Makes sense except Moses Brown went after the 16th pick, undrafted in fact. So you can get that production from the 16th pick or later if you draft well. I think what he means is that the 16th pick is probably 50/50 if they will contribute ANYTHING....much much less chance they become a starter or star. Basically they got Moses who given minutes is at least a 10/10/2 guy...so they got a more known commodity that fits a position of need for them. They very well could have gotten a better player for sure....or better yet rolled that pick into a better trade package but it was necessary to get off Kemba's salary. They save like 10 million this coming year in salary (created a 7 mm trade exception) and will have likely opened up 32 million in salary for 2023....sure they lost a valuable offensive piece...if you count valuable being a guy that can't play back to backs during the season and can't even be healthy enough to suite up in half your playoff games when they have days off between games. It wasn't ideal but they did ok getting out of a bad contract...one that few thought they could move without having to trade any of their own young talent. I will say I think OKC got the best of this trade. They got a more valuable trade commodity that they can send off in 2023 and was able to trade an undrafted player for the #16 pick....not bad at all. Edited June 18, 2021 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Just my gut feeling but I think one of these guys will he the next Pacers coach. Brian Shaw. Mike Brown 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 49 minutes ago, cybergates said: Makes sense except Moses Brown went after the 16th pick, undrafted in fact. So you can get that production from the 16th pick or later if you draft well. As @dgambill said, where Moses Brown was (un)drafted compared to the 16th pick doesn't really matter, it's where does his production line with now. I think most teams would be pretty happy with a 16th pick that was 7'2" and averaged 8ppg and 9rpg in 20mpg as a 21 year old. The Celtics are just swapping the pick for the production now, and moving the pick was also a requirement in getting off of a bad contract. They now save $9M this year and following next season will have both Al Horford and Marcus Smart's contracts coming off the books or as trade chips heading into the season. I actually think this is a pretty great trade for the Celtics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 9 hours ago, dgambill said: Who wouldn't want to live in Texas...play for a multi billionaire who loves basketball and super passionate about his team. He lavishes the players/coaches etc with the locker rooms and services and has a superstar? As for the Bucks....they definitely haven't made great adjustments this series...mostly benefited from injuries. Why don't they go pick n roll with Holiday and Giannis and put Middleton in the short corner where they can't help off and just score a million points exploiting that? They make things so much more complicated then it needs to be. You lost me at "who wouldn't want to live in Texas..." 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 5 hours ago, BGleas said: True, though I don't view the Hawks as real contenders, even if they win this series. They've good, don't get me wrong, but in a healthy NBA they're not a real contender. They got lucky a bit with their draw. Not saying they aren't good by any means, and I completely agree on how they've built the team and the Bogs acquisition, but I don't view them as a true title contender, even if they win this series. This year? Probably not. Next year? With a year of development from Trae, a healthy Hunter, Cam Reddish back, John Collins continuing to develop.... I think they can be. I'll be interested to see what they do with their head coach, I'm not sold on Nate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 25 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: This year? Probably not. Next year? With a year of development from Trae, a healthy Hunter, Cam Reddish back, John Collins continuing to develop.... I think they can be. I'll be interested to see what they do with their head coach, I'm not sold on Nate. Competing against a healthy Brooklyn, healthy Philly, healthy Miami, and healthy Milwaukee? Probably not. We also don't know what Boston will look like. I think if Boston was healthy this year, they're better than Atlanta, we just don't know what they'll look like next year now. Don't get me wrong, they're a fun, talented, deep, young team on the rise, certainly a playoff team, but I wouldn't have them as a legit, true title contender. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 2 hours ago, BGleas said: As @dgambill said, where Moses Brown was (un)drafted compared to the 16th pick doesn't really matter, it's where does his production line with now. I think most teams would be pretty happy with a 16th pick that was 7'2" and averaged 8ppg and 9rpg in 20mpg as a 21 year old. The Celtics are just swapping the pick for the production now, and moving the pick was also a requirement in getting off of a bad contract. They now save $9M this year and following next season will have both Al Horford and Marcus Smart's contracts coming off the books or as trade chips heading into the season. I actually think this is a pretty great trade for the Celtics. Am I correct in my understanding that after 22 if they waive Horford they will have opened up 32 million? Will that translate to the third star you are talking about or is that just them getting under the cap? I haven’t followed cap in nba like nfl because it is so arbitrary given teams like GS and LA and others so far over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 37 minutes ago, dgambill said: Am I correct in my understanding that after 22 if they waive Horford they will have opened up 32 million? Will that translate to the third star you are talking about or is that just them getting under the cap? I haven’t followed cap in nba like nfl because it is so arbitrary given teams like GS and LA and others so far over it. I believe it does free up $32M of salary, but what I'm not sure about is how far over the cap they are. I'm not sure if they'll have that much in cap space, but you can always do a sign and trade for a 3rd star. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, BGleas said: I believe it does free up $32M of salary, but what I'm not sure about is how far over the cap they are. I'm not sure if they'll have that much in cap space, but you can always do a sign and trade for a 3rd star. Combine with Smart coming off books and Thompson…you basically have just Tatum and Brown making anything. Rest are rookie deals. Sure you will be free up to bring in someone. Beal would be a free agent…makes a lot of sense. Edited June 18, 2021 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 19, 2021 Report Share Posted June 19, 2021 (edited) So to change to subject…answer me this. How do you pay a player 35 million dollars a year who can’t shoot outside of 12 feet, can’t shoot free throws, and you can’t play the final 5 minutes of games? Just don’t see how Ben Simmons is a max player….maybe the nba experts on this board can explain it to me. Edited June 19, 2021 by dgambill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 19, 2021 Report Share Posted June 19, 2021 On the flip side how is Seth Curry making only 7 million a year?? And why would the Mavs trade him? Things that make you go 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 19, 2021 Report Share Posted June 19, 2021 I might have been too kind to Simmons…he can’t even score at point blank…guy just looks rattled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 19, 2021 Report Share Posted June 19, 2021 51 minutes ago, dgambill said: So to change to subject…answer me this. How do you pay a player 35 million dollars a year who can’t shoot outside of 12 feet, can’t shoot free throws, and you can’t play the final 5 minutes of games? Just don’t see how Ben Simmons is a max player….maybe the nba experts on this board can explain it to me. Simmons does a lot of great things. He's a great defender and a great passer/playmaker. With that said, I agree with you. In this day and age, and the same goes with Giannis to an extent, you can't win a title when one of two best players can't shoot and can't be relied upon in the 4th quarter. It completely leaves Embiid on an island in big games. I don't think the Sixers ever win a title with Ben Simmons as one of their two best players. It's tough for Milwaukee too, are you really relying on Middelton to be your go-to guy in the 4th quarter of NBA Finals games? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 19, 2021 Report Share Posted June 19, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, BGleas said: Simmons does a lot of great things. He's a great defender and a great passer/playmaker. With that said, I agree with you. In this day and age, and the same goes with Giannis to an extent, you can't win a title when one of two best players can't shoot and can't be relied upon in the 4th quarter. It completely leaves Embiid on an island in big games. I don't think the Sixers ever win a title with Ben Simmons as one of their two best players. It's tough for Milwaukee too, are you really relying on Middelton to be your go-to guy in the 4th quarter of NBA Finals games? Well Middleton is scoring 38 on like 14 shots lol…guy is underrated. Simmons isn’t bad per say but come on…35 million and can’t close games…like not even on the floor? He can’t pass, defend, or facilitate from the bench and that is where he is. If they lose tonight he has to be on the trading block. Watching Capela maybe we should have a Simmons vs Capela ft contest lol! Edited June 19, 2021 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted June 19, 2021 Report Share Posted June 19, 2021 (edited) I don’t like that charge call on Embiid. Bad call imo. He didn’t lead with the elbow…the defender is in the restricted zone…don’t get it. Edited June 19, 2021 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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