NBA Thread

[dgambill]

5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Just because he won't be allowed to tank like you keep calling for doesn't mean he won't be allowed to make major moves...

We just got a guy who is a championship coach and widely regarded as one of the better coaches in the NBA. We paid him a lot more than what we have paid for previous coaches. I see this is a sign that we are going to invest in having a good team, how you are seeing this as same ole, same ole is honestly beyond me. The last time the Pacers hired a proven coach like this it was Larry Brown. 

It's not even really tanking...per say. I'm not saying trying to lose on purpose. I am looking for a reboot...bringing in young players with real upside that will fit a style and model of play that can be successful in a few years. Maybe adding a few more draft picks but a majority of the guys on our team are at their peak or about as good as they are going to get...and it ain't even close to being good enough together to win us anything. We will see...maybe a miracle will happen and we will get aggressive and make some major overhaul to the roster...but as is...we are capped out with little room to improve in a significant way.

[KoB2011]

Just now, dgambill said:

It's not even really tanking...per say. I'm not saying trying to lose on purpose. I am looking for a reboot...bringing in young players with real upside that will fit a style and model of play that can be successful in a few years. Maybe adding a few more draft picks but a majority of the guys on our team are at their peak or about as good as they are going to get...and it ain't even close to being good enough together to win us anything. We will see...maybe a miracle will happen and we will get aggressive and make some major overhaul to the roster...but as is...we are capped out with little room to improve in a significant way.

We don't really know what it is together, we haven't seen it. I think 4 guys that have All-Star potential and our fifth starter is one of the best defensive playes in the league. Let's see what happens with some tweaks and adding pick 13. 

[dgambill]

3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

So hiring the best available coach (not to say some up and comers couldn't end up better) is more of the same?

If Carlisle had never coached here you wouldn't be saying this. If his name was Quinn Snyder or Nick Nurse you'd be ecstatic right now - Carlisle is in that realm of coaches he just happens to have coached here over a decade ago. 

EDIT: there are two teams in the conference Finals who missed the playoffs last year and didn't make shot roster shake ups. They added quality pieces and both teams are really deep, well balanced rosters. The Pacers aren't going to win with elite superstars, we have to build teams like we have in the past and how teams like Phoenix, Utah, Atlanta, Milwaukee, etc have done so. 

We have no one...no one even close to Giannis/Middleton of the Bucks, Trae Young of the Hawks, Devin Booker/Chris Paul of the Suns, or Mitchell of the Jazz, or Jokic and Murray of Denver....and if people think Sabonis is that level of player...well then I guess I see why we disagree. If you are telling me we will land one of those caliber of players to add to this team...then I'll happily listen...and then of course Carlisle will be a fine addition. I loved Carlisle when he was here...and I think he is a very good X,O coach and given a championship caliber roster can absolutely make the moves and adjustments necessary to help his team win....but you give him mediocrity (which we are)...he isn't turning that into a contender...he has proven that in Dallas...he has had pretty mediocre talent and he hasn't been out of the first round in a decade.

[dwtaylor1055]

i just don't see how we can remain hopeful that we get to see the full potential of this squad after a few seasons(with the exception of LeVert).  

Brogdon - Injury prone history shows

Warren - Injury prone history shows

LeVert - Take this year out and he's had a nack for injuries

Myles - Not a big injury risk imo

Sabonis - Will become injury prone if he continues playing 38 mins per night lol

 

 

[ATX_sig]

Well having one of the best if not the best bigs in Sabonis on PnR's with the best PnR coach in RC will be a good start towards an identity.  How does Brogdon run the PnR.  If Levert turns into the star he sometimes looks like, I think the Paces have a really good team that can make some noise. Just be healthy.  

 

[cybergates]

If nothing else, the next white guy the Pacers draft Rick Carlisle can say I coached Dirk and Luka so I can show you a few things.

[dgambill]

2 minutes ago, cybergates said:

If nothing else, the next white guy the Pacers draft Rick Carlisle can say I coached Dirk and Luka so I can show you a few things.

If they don't draft Leaf 2.0 then they'll likely just trade the pick for Luis Scola 2.0...man that trade sucked....gave up Green, Plumlee and a pick that ended up being Bogdan Bogdavovic....with Jokic going a little later....

[IU Scott]

I would like to see what packaging Turner and Brogdon would get us.  Carlisle was 181-148 the first time here with a 61-21 season in there.  I think this is a very good hire and was the best candidate out there.

[cybergates]

19 minutes ago, dgambill said:

If they don't draft Leaf 2.0 then they'll likely just trade the pick for Luis Scola 2.0...man that trade sucked....gave up Green, Plumlee and a pick that ended up being Bogdan Bogdavovic....with Jokic going a little later....

I'll never forgive/forget the Pacers for taking Leaf. All the players (currently) w/ more WS drafted after Leaf...sadly 2 IU guys were there for the taking...smdh

			Round 1		Advanced
Rk	Pk	Tm	Player	College	WS▼	WS/48	BPM	VORP
2	22	BRK	Jarrett Allen	Texas	26.5	0.175	1.2	5.8
4	19	ATL	John Collins	Wake Forest	23.1	0.162	1.4	5.8
6	23	TOR	OG Anunoby	Indiana	13.8	0.105	0	3.1
8	51	DEN	Monte Morris	Iowa State	13.1	0.13	0.4	2.9
9	27	BRK	Kyle Kuzma	Utah	12.2	0.072	-1.2	1.5
11	30	UTA	Josh Hart	Villanova	11.4	0.087	-0.8	1.9
12	42	UTA	Thomas Bryant	Indiana	10.5	0.169	1.8	2.8
13	29	SAS	Derrick White	Colorado	10.2	0.106	1.1	3.6
17	28	LAL	Tony Bradley	UNC	6.1	0.208	0.9	1
18	46	PHI	Sterling Brown	SMU	5.8	0.073	-2	0
20	37	BOS	Semi Ojeleye	SMU	5	0.064	-3.3	-1.2
21	38	CHI	Jordan Bell	Oregon	4.9	0.121	0.2	1.1
22	21	OKC	Terrance Ferguson		4.4	0.053	-4	-2.1
23	33	ORL	Wesley Iwundu	Kansas State	4.2	0.053	-3.8	-1.8
25	45	HOU	Dillon Brooks	Oregon	3.7	0.026	-4.1	-3.7
26	35	ORL	Ivan Rabb	California	3.2	0.125	-1.7	0.1
28	43	HOU	Isaiah Hartenstein		3.1	0.141	-1.5	0.1
29	20	POR	Harry Giles	Duke	3	0.079	-2.5	-0.2
30	44	NYK	Damyean Dotson	Oregon	3	0.034	-2.8	-0.9
31	18	IND	T.J. Leaf	UCLA	2.7	0.104	-1.8	0.1

Edited June 24, 2021 by cybergates

[NotIThatLives]

7 minutes ago, cybergates said:

I'll never forgive/forget the Pacers for taking Leaf. All the players (currently) w/ more WS drafted after Leaf...sadly 2 IU guys were there for the taking...smdh

			Round 1		Advanced
Rk	Pk	Tm	Player	College	WS▼	WS/48	BPM	VORP
2	22	BRK	Jarrett Allen	Texas	26.5	0.175	1.2	5.8
4	19	ATL	John Collins	Wake Forest	23.1	0.162	1.4	5.8
6	23	TOR	OG Anunoby	Indiana	13.8	0.105	0	3.1
8	51	DEN	Monte Morris	Iowa State	13.1	0.13	0.4	2.9
9	27	BRK	Kyle Kuzma	Utah	12.2	0.072	-1.2	1.5
11	30	UTA	Josh Hart	Villanova	11.4	0.087	-0.8	1.9
12	42	UTA	Thomas Bryant	Indiana	10.5	0.169	1.8	2.8
13	29	SAS	Derrick White	Colorado	10.2	0.106	1.1	3.6
17	28	LAL	Tony Bradley	UNC	6.1	0.208	0.9	1
18	46	PHI	Sterling Brown	SMU	5.8	0.073	-2	0
20	37	BOS	Semi Ojeleye	SMU	5	0.064	-3.3	-1.2
21	38	CHI	Jordan Bell	Oregon	4.9	0.121	0.2	1.1
22	21	OKC	Terrance Ferguson		4.4	0.053	-4	-2.1
23	33	ORL	Wesley Iwundu	Kansas State	4.2	0.053	-3.8	-1.8
25	45	HOU	Dillon Brooks	Oregon	3.7	0.026	-4.1	-3.7
26	35	ORL	Ivan Rabb	California	3.2	0.125	-1.7	0.1
28	43	HOU	Isaiah Hartenstein		3.1	0.141	-1.5	0.1
29	20	POR	Harry Giles	Duke	3	0.079	-2.5	-0.2
30	44	NYK	Damyean Dotson	Oregon	3	0.034	-2.8	-0.9
31	18	IND	T.J. Leaf	UCLA	2.7	0.104	-1.8	0.1

Larry Bird.  The gift that keeps on giving.  Throw a hot pile of Plumlee on there for good measure.  

[FKIM01]

3 hours ago, cybergates said:

https://nesn.com/2021/06/twitter-roasts-jay-williams-for-explanation-about-celtics-tweet/#:~:text=The NBA guard-turned-analyst,%2C” Williams tweeted Wednesday night.

Pretty funny responses to his "my twitter was hacked" excuse

OMG...if you were ever going to hope to use that worn-out excuse, at least use it on something truly terrible that people would be shocked you wrote.  No way this one was going to fly and he looks stupid for attempting it.

[dgambill]

37 minutes ago, cybergates said:

I'll never forgive/forget the Pacers for taking Leaf. All the players (currently) w/ more WS drafted after Leaf...sadly 2 IU guys were there for the taking...smdh

			Round 1		Advanced
Rk	Pk	Tm	Player	College	WS▼	WS/48	BPM	VORP
2	22	BRK	Jarrett Allen	Texas	26.5	0.175	1.2	5.8
4	19	ATL	John Collins	Wake Forest	23.1	0.162	1.4	5.8
6	23	TOR	OG Anunoby	Indiana	13.8	0.105	0	3.1
8	51	DEN	Monte Morris	Iowa State	13.1	0.13	0.4	2.9
9	27	BRK	Kyle Kuzma	Utah	12.2	0.072	-1.2	1.5
11	30	UTA	Josh Hart	Villanova	11.4	0.087	-0.8	1.9
12	42	UTA	Thomas Bryant	Indiana	10.5	0.169	1.8	2.8
13	29	SAS	Derrick White	Colorado	10.2	0.106	1.1	3.6
17	28	LAL	Tony Bradley	UNC	6.1	0.208	0.9	1
18	46	PHI	Sterling Brown	SMU	5.8	0.073	-2	0
20	37	BOS	Semi Ojeleye	SMU	5	0.064	-3.3	-1.2
21	38	CHI	Jordan Bell	Oregon	4.9	0.121	0.2	1.1
22	21	OKC	Terrance Ferguson		4.4	0.053	-4	-2.1
23	33	ORL	Wesley Iwundu	Kansas State	4.2	0.053	-3.8	-1.8
25	45	HOU	Dillon Brooks	Oregon	3.7	0.026	-4.1	-3.7
26	35	ORL	Ivan Rabb	California	3.2	0.125	-1.7	0.1
28	43	HOU	Isaiah Hartenstein		3.1	0.141	-1.5	0.1
29	20	POR	Harry Giles	Duke	3	0.079	-2.5	-0.2
30	44	NYK	Damyean Dotson	Oregon	3	0.034	-2.8	-0.9
31	18	IND	T.J. Leaf	UCLA	2.7	0.104	-1.8	0.1

Man I think you could do that all day...for most teams...but especially the Pacers...

09: Hansboro---Holiday, Teague, Gibson, Danny Green

10: George---Hey got one right!

11: trade---the Kawhi trade lol but not just that Vucevic, Tobias Harris, Jimmy Butler

12: Plumlee---Dreymond Green, Jae Crowder, K Middleton, Will Barton

13: S Hill---Rudy Gobert, Hardaway Jr

14: trade---Bogdanovic, Jokic,  K Anderson, Joe Harris, Dinwiddie, Jarami Grant, Clarkson

15: Turner-- D Booker, Rozier, Oubre

16: Trade--Levert, Siakam, Brogdon

17: Leaf---you proved the point above

So we can see we haven't exactly done a great job identifying the best talent (a lot of teams this is true)....but even some of the guys we are taking..it seemed very very short sighted drafting.

Edited June 24, 2021 by dgambill

[dgambill]

31 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Larry Bird.  The gift that keeps on giving.  Throw a hot pile of Plumlee on there for good measure.  

Did he draft Hansboro too??!!

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

We have no one...no one even close to Giannis/Middleton of the Bucks, Trae Young of the Hawks, Devin Booker/Chris Paul of the Suns, or Mitchell of the Jazz, or Jokic and Murray of Denver....and if people think Sabonis is that level of player...well then I guess I see why we disagree. If you are telling me we will land one of those caliber of players to add to this team...then I'll happily listen...and then of course Carlisle will be a fine addition. I loved Carlisle when he was here...and I think he is a very good X,O coach and given a championship caliber roster can absolutely make the moves and adjustments necessary to help his team win....but you give him mediocrity (which we are)...he isn't turning that into a contender...he has proven that in Dallas...he has had pretty mediocre talent and he hasn't been out of the first round in a decade.

What NBA coach is there that has turned mediocre talent into a true title contender? That just doesn't really happen in the NBA. What other coach available would be able to accomplish that? 

It's also Pritchard's job to get that done, not Carlisle's, but in the meantime you got one of the absolute best coaches in the NBA. 

With all of that said, while I wouldn't call the 2011 Maverick's mediocre talent, they also weren't a team that anyone thought was going to win a championship, and on the way to that championship they beat the OKC 3 (Durant, Westbrook & Harden), they beat the Spurs with Pop, Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, they beat Kobe's Lakers and they beat Miami's Big 3. 

That may be the best postseason gauntlet that any team has every going through, at least in terms of the names associated with their opponents. In the subsequent years of not getting out of the first round, I'm trying to think of a time Dallas was the favorite and lost? I believe they were always the lower seed, though I did not look that up. 

[KoB2011]

10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

What NBA coach is there that has turned mediocre talent into a true title contender? That just doesn't really happen in the NBA. What other coach available would be able to accomplish that? 

It's also Pritchard's job to get that done, not Carlisle's, but in the meantime you got one of the absolute best coaches in the NBA. 

With all of that said, while I wouldn't call the 2011 Maverick's mediocre talent, they also weren't a team that anyone thought was going to win a championship, and on the way to that championship they beat the OKC 3 (Durant, Westbrook & Harden), they beat the Spurs with Pop, Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, they beat Kobe's Lakers and they beat Miami's Big 3. 

That may be the best postseason gauntlet that any team has every going through, at least in terms of the names associated with their opponents. In the subsequent years of not getting out of the first round, I'm trying to think of a time Dallas was the favorite and lost? I believe they were always the lower seed, though I did not look that up. 

It's honestly impressive they pushed the Clippers like they did the past two postseasons.

[NotIThatLives]

14 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Did he draft Hansboro too??!!

"Bird was named president of basketball operations for the Pacers, holding the position until retiring in 2012.[2] He was named NBA Executive of the Year for the 2012 season. Bird returned to the Pacers as president of basketball operations in 2013[3] and remained in that role until 2017."

[jefftheref]

The Pacers are the Colts in the 80's and 90's. Poor management and horrendous decision making.

Bird is/was a buffoon!

[ATX_sig]

13 minutes ago, BGleas said:

What NBA coach is there that has turned mediocre talent into a true title contender? That just doesn't really happen in the NBA. What other coach available would be able to accomplish that? 

It's also Pritchard's job to get that done, not Carlisle's, but in the meantime you got one of the absolute best coaches in the NBA. 

With all of that said, while I wouldn't call the 2011 Maverick's mediocre talent, they also weren't a team that anyone thought was going to win a championship, and on the way to that championship they beat the OKC 3 (Durant, Westbrook & Harden), they beat the Spurs with Pop, Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, they beat Kobe's Lakers and they beat Miami's Big 3. 

That may be the best postseason gauntlet that any team has every going through, at least in terms of the names associated with their opponents. In the subsequent years of not getting out of the first round, I'm trying to think of a time Dallas was the favorite and lost? I believe they were always the lower seed, though I did not look that up. 

Mavs were 3 seed and had same record as Lakers who were the 2.  They had a rash of injuries in January where I think they lost 7 in a row or 7 of 9.  Would have to that up.  Actually they won a strange 7 game series vs the 6 seed blazers in round 1 then swept defending champ Lakers before OKC (4 or 5 sseed) and Miami.  I think that is the year the Griz as an 8 seed took out the #1 seed spurs.  They were not the favorite for title but they were far from mediocre. I think they got predictions as a sleeper from some. 

Chandler, Dirk, JET, Kidd, Marion. Caron Butler was on that team and blew out his knee.  The ball movement on that team was incredible.  Barea was great in the playoffs. Cuban thought he was some genius because of the new CBA coming and read the market wrong.  He didn't want to pay maybe the 2nd most important player on that team in Chandler.  He thought the Mavs would be able to get Howard or Deron williams by out smarting other front offices. 

 

[5fouls]

Some of you are too hard on Bird.  Did he miss on some drafts?  Sure.  But, so did every other GM whose team picked BEFORE the Pacers, as well as many that picked after him.  It's not like the Pacers had a Top 5 pick in these drafts.  When you get out of the lottery it is a total crapshoot.  There are many more misses than hits in EVERY organization.  

[cybergates]

18 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Some of you are too hard on Bird.  Did he miss on some drafts?  Sure.  But, so did every other GM whose team picked BEFORE the Pacers, as well as many that picked after him.  It's not like the Pacers had a Top 5 pick in these drafts.  When you get out of the lottery it is a total crapshoot.  There are many more misses than hits in EVERY organization.  

I think the problem many have with Bird is he had a couple of beliefs that were outdated and it caused underwhelming picks (preferred older/accomplished players over taking the risk on higher upside guys) and getting rid of coaches w/o needing to (his 4year won't listen anymore rule that he self applied and then seemed to reapply to coaches).

That and when most picks were made there were players on the board at the time that fans would have preferred to in most cases the BWGA (Best White Guy Available) pick the Pacers/Bird made.

[NotIThatLives]

28 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Some of you are too hard on Bird.  Did he miss on some drafts?  Sure.  But, so did every other GM whose team picked BEFORE the Pacers, as well as many that picked after him.  It's not like the Pacers had a Top 5 pick in these drafts.  When you get out of the lottery it is a total crapshoot.  There are many more misses than hits in EVERY organization.  

He drafted much like the Giants do.  Who was he competing with for Leaf?  Plumlee, most thought this guy could be a serviceable big for 15 years.  I think he mostly thought he was right and shut out other people's opinions and Simmons let him get away with it.  

[NotIThatLives]

5 minutes ago, cybergates said:

I think the problem many have with Bird is he had a couple of beliefs that were outdated and it caused underwhelming picks (preferred older/accomplished players over taking the risk on higher upside guys) and getting rid of coaches w/o needing to (his 4year won't listen anymore rule that he self applied and then seemed to reapply to coaches).

That and when most picks were made there were players on the board at the time that fans would have preferred to in most cases the BWGA (Best White Guy Available) pick the Pacers/Bird made.

Basic facts about Larry Bird

 

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

What NBA coach is there that has turned mediocre talent into a true title contender? That just doesn't really happen in the NBA. What other coach available would be able to accomplish that? 

It's also Pritchard's job to get that done, not Carlisle's, but in the meantime you got one of the absolute best coaches in the NBA. 

With all of that said, while I wouldn't call the 2011 Maverick's mediocre talent, they also weren't a team that anyone thought was going to win a championship, and on the way to that championship they beat the OKC 3 (Durant, Westbrook & Harden), they beat the Spurs with Pop, Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, they beat Kobe's Lakers and they beat Miami's Big 3. 

That may be the best postseason gauntlet that any team has every going through, at least in terms of the names associated with their opponents. In the subsequent years of not getting out of the first round, I'm trying to think of a time Dallas was the favorite and lost? I believe they were always the lower seed, though I did not look that up. 

Carlisle is a damn fine coach...but like you said no coach is going to take medicority and do anything special with it. Which is my point. If you take an established coach like him it signals you expect to win right now...and to me that means you are going to try to return most of your guys and make some changes on the edges. I could be wrong...and I'll be happy if we make wholesale changes but if that is the case I don't think Carlisle signs on. I'd prefer to move off established vets and trade for cap relief, young future players with upside, and draft capital then trade Myles Turner for a couple other mediocre starters and try to win with this core...only to find out in 2-3 years we maybe have won 1 playoff series and all our tradable assets have walked or past their prime when it comes to getting a return for them. I am hoping for a rebuild...and I don't think I'm getting it...and I don't think we can get the kind of return would be needed to upgrade the caliber of team we have unless we take some shots at some young players that have great potential.

[dgambill]

11 minutes ago, cybergates said:

I think the problem many have with Bird is he had a couple of beliefs that were outdated and it caused underwhelming picks (preferred older/accomplished players over taking the risk on higher upside guys) and getting rid of coaches w/o needing to (his 4year won't listen anymore rule that he self applied and then seemed to reapply to coaches).

That and when most picks were made there were players on the board at the time that fans would have preferred to in most cases the BWGA (Best White Guy Available) pick the Pacers/Bird made.

For a guy that thought it was disrespectful for the other team to put a white guy on him he sure drafted/acquired enough lol!!

 

https://www.sportscasting.com/larry-bird-hated-playing-against-a-white-guy-during-his-time-in-the-nba/

Edited June 24, 2021 by dgambill

[rico]

Since Rick is back in Indy...maybe we can wheel and deal with the Mavs?  Maybe we got some pieces they can use around Luka?