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51 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Wait.... Kukoc and Pippen are statistically pretty close? Are we saying they are similarly talented players? 

I'm strictly looking at career shooting percentages, which was the aspect we were talking about at the time...the ability to drop a shot.  Kukoc was at least as accurate as Pippen in that regard.  

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4 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

I'm strictly looking at career shooting percentages, which was the aspect we were talking about at the time...the ability to drop a shot.  Kukoc was at least as accurate as Pippen in that regard.  

Oh gotcha, I misunderstood. Yeah, Kukoc was the better jump shooter. 

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8 minutes ago, dgambill said:

93-94 finished 55-27 (two games worse) 94-95 47-35 but they had lost all-star Horace Grant as well. It wasn't just losing MJ but it was they really didn't replace him with anything at all honestly. Kukoc wasn't really an MJ replacement. I'd say the Bulls didn't fall off too much. I mean let's look at every team Lebron has left and talk about a falling off lol.

Meh...

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3 hours ago, dgambill said:

To get this back to relevant NBA conversations and not about guys that have are just trying to cash in on what little fame they have left.....the Suns vs Clippers presents an interesting question....who stands more to lose...Chris Paul or Paul George if their team flames out again? So many things go into both these guys and how they have led their team to this point but yet both have had significant struggles in this series...and both have legacies of coming up short.

I would say CP3 has more to lose. I think people get who Paul George is. Nobody expects Paul George to be LeBron James or Michael Jordan, they expect him to be more the Robin. 

So sure, PG could vault himself into the James, Durant, Kawhi conversation in terms of current perception if he led the Clippers to a title, but I don't think people expect it.

For CP3, while he is towards the end of his career, there are people that call him the best point guard of all time, and most others at least have him in the top 3. 

But if when his career is over, can you really call him the greatest compared to Magic, Isiah, etc., if he not only doesn't win a title but never even gets to a Finals? Even Stockton got to 2 finals. 

Steve Nash is a 2-time MVP and doesn't get into that discussion because he never even made a Finals. 

CP3 needs this. 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

I would say CP3 has more to lose. I think people get who Paul George is. Nobody expects Paul George to be LeBron James or Michael Jordan, they expect him to be more the Robin. 

So sure, PG could vault himself into the James, Durant, Kawhi conversation in terms of current perception if he led the Clippers to a title, but I don't think people expect it.

For CP3, while he is towards the end of his career, there are people that call him the best point guard of all time, and most others at least have him in the top 3. 

But if when his career is over, can you really call him the greatest compared to Magic, Isiah, etc., if he not only doesn't win a title but never even gets to a Finals? Even Stockton got to 2 finals. 

Steve Nash is a 2-time MVP and doesn't get into that discussion because he never even made a Finals. 

CP3 needs this. 

I totally agree, but also want to add that I think PG gets a pass this year with Kawhi being out this series and the fact that PG has played well and clearly given it his all. 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

I would say CP3 has more to lose. I think people get who Paul George is. Nobody expects Paul George to be LeBron James or Michael Jordan, they expect him to be more the Robin. 

So sure, PG could vault himself into the James, Durant, Kawhi conversation in terms of current perception if he led the Clippers to a title, but I don't think people expect it.

For CP3, while he is towards the end of his career, there are people that call him the best point guard of all time, and most others at least have him in the top 3. 

But if when his career is over, can you really call him the greatest compared to Magic, Isiah, etc., if he not only doesn't win a title but never even gets to a Finals? Even Stockton got to 2 finals. 

Steve Nash is a 2-time MVP and doesn't get into that discussion because he never even made a Finals. 

CP3 needs this. 

Excellent point and exactly the kind of discussion I think is relevant to what is happening legacy wise right in front of us. No matter what happens….this championship is about to define a group of players for the rest of their careers most likely. CP3, Booker, PG, Giannis, Middleton, Young….that makes this very exciting for me…

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52 minutes ago, Hippopotamo said:

I totally agree, but also want to add that I think PG gets a pass this year with Kawhi being out this series and the fact that PG has played well and clearly given it his all. 

Agree and disagree. This is his moment to put himself in that elite group of players at the top. If he is to lead his team to a championship he could officially put himself in that elite group of guys like Kawhi, D Wade, Paul Pierce…show he can be the man and not the sidekick. I mean I look at the Clippers and even without Kawhi his team is more talented then Phoenix imo. I don’t get this excuse he doesn’t have as good a team. They are the favorite in my opinion. I can’t say he has played exceptionally well the whole series. They’ve basically gone how he has and he has been up and down with his performance. Better or worse the Clippers will go how he goes and if he carries them then he should get great credit but if he doesn’t well it’s going to come down to how he finishes this series off.

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15 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Agree and disagree. This is his moment to put himself in that elite group of players at the top. If he is to lead his team to a championship he could officially put himself in that elite group of guys like Kawhi, D Wade, Paul Pierce…show he can be the man and not the sidekick. I mean I look at the Clippers and even without Kawhi his team is more talented then Phoenix imo. I don’t get this excuse he doesn’t have as good a team. They are the favorite in my opinion. I can’t say he has played exceptionally well the whole series. They’ve basically gone how he has and he has been up and down with his performance. Better or worse the Clippers will go how he goes and if he carries them then he should get great credit but if he doesn’t well it’s going to come down to how he finishes this series off.

Paul George isn’t a #1 option on a title team in my opinion. He’s played way more minutes than any other player in the playoffs and the Clippers are exhausted. Overall I think he’s done great considering the circumstances. 
 

I also personally disagree on your Phoenix assessment. I feel like the Clippers are the better team with Kawhi, but without him I think the Suns are better. I probably view CP3 more highly than most because I feel like he’s elevated that team to a whole other level. 

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4 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Why didn't the Bulls have hardly any fall off when Jordan "retired" the first time? Why was Scottie so easily able to step in and play like an MVP in Jordan's place? 

The Bulls of 91 thru 93 won 73% of their regular season games and finished first in the Central Division each year...and they won 3 championships...

94 and 95, they won 62% of their games finished 2nd and 3rd in the Central Division...and never made it past the conference semis...

Pippen scored 10 ppg less during the 94-95 seasons than Jordan did 91-93...

That might not be falling off a cliff, but I'd say the Bulls and Jordan were appreciably better on both counts...The difference between good and great...

When Jordan came back for his encore, the difference in winning percentage is even more drastic (82%)

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15 minutes ago, Hippopotamo said:

Paul George isn’t a #1 option on a title team in my opinion. He’s played way more minutes than any other player in the playoffs and the Clippers are exhausted. Overall I think he’s done great considering the circumstances. 
 

I also personally disagree on your Phoenix assessment. I feel like the Clippers are the better team with Kawhi, but without him I think the Suns are better. I probably view CP3 more highly than most because I feel like he’s elevated that team to a whole other level. 

I respect your opinions. Guess we just disagree. The Clippers have so much playoff experience and Chris Paul to me is more coach then player at this stage. I mean the key for the Suns I think centers around Cam Payne’s success. Anyways I still think PG has a unique chance to redefine his legacy in this moment. He was on the verge of making that jump with the Pacers and then made the jump to playing option B to Westbrook and then Kawhi. He has a chance on the biggest stage to put himself in that option A category imo and realize his potential that he was on course to accomplish in Indy.

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Trae Young out of game 4.  Can't remember so many star players missing playoff games. Use to you would have to have a severe injury to miss a payoff game but not today.  Isaiah barely could walk after an ankle injury in the finals against the Lakers but stayed in the game and scored 25 points in the 4th quarter

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38 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Year Young out of game 4.  Can't remember so many star players missing playoff games. Use to you would have to have a severe injury to miss a payoff game but not today.  Isaiah barely could walk after an ankle injury in the finals against the Lakers but stayed in the game and scored 25 points in the 4th quarter

He probably wasn’t coming into a contract year lol 

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2 hours ago, Hippopotamo said:

Paul George isn’t a #1 option on a title team in my opinion. He’s played way more minutes than any other player in the playoffs and the Clippers are exhausted. Overall I think he’s done great considering the circumstances. 
 

I also personally disagree on your Phoenix assessment. I feel like the Clippers are the better team with Kawhi, but without him I think the Suns are better. I probably view CP3 more highly than most because I feel like he’s elevated that team to a whole other level. 

Phoenix probably has three of the best four players in the series with Kawhi. I definitely think at this exact moment they have the better roster. 

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2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Trae Young out of game 4.  Can't remember so many star players missing playoff games. Use to you would have to have a severe injury to miss a payoff game but not today.  Isaiah barely could walk after an ankle injury in the finals against the Lakers but stayed in the game and scored 25 points in the 4th quarter

Then he could clearly walk and was better at whatever percentage he was than the guys behind him. 
 

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9 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Phoenix probably has three of the best four players in the series with Kawhi. I definitely think at this exact moment they have the better roster. 

I agree. Phoenix is much better as currently constituted. Booker, Ayton and Paul are better than any grouping of 3 players on the active Clippers roster. 

Then you add Bridges, Crowder, Cam Johnson and Payne, that’s a talented team. 

 

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2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I agree. Phoenix is much better as currently constituted. Booker, Ayton and Paul are better than any grouping of 3 players on the active Clippers roster. 

Then you add Bridges, Crowder, Cam Johnson and Payne, that’s a talented team. 

 

Yeah and the pieces fit together really well. The guards can all facilitate and score, two of them from all three levels. All the wings are really good three and D guys, and Ayton is really such a perfect big for them. Doesn’t need a lot of touches, finishes incredibly well at the rim, and can score when you let him shoot jumpers or post up. Even Dario getting the backup big minutes is a really good fit for them. 

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3 hours ago, IUFLA said:

The Bulls of 91 thru 93 won 73% of their regular season games and finished first in the Central Division each year...and they won 3 championships...

94 and 95, they won 62% of their games finished 2nd and 3rd in the Central Division...and never made it past the conference semis...

Pippen scored 10 ppg less during the 94-95 seasons than Jordan did 91-93...

That might not be falling off a cliff, but I'd say the Bulls and Jordan were appreciably better on both counts...The difference between good and great...

When Jordan came back for his encore, the difference in winning percentage is even more drastic (82%)

I think you’d be hard pressed to find another dynasty in NBA history that could lose their best player, do nothing to replace him, and that’s the only fall off they have.
 

It’s already been said, but look what happened every time LeBron left. Or look at Houston when Harden left, or OKC when KD left, the Lakers when they lost Shaq, etc.

The conclusion almost has to be either Pippen was really damn good or else Jordan wasn’t as big of an impact on winning as a lot of other historically great players. 

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29 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Yeah and the pieces fit together really well. The guards can all facilitate and score, two of them from all three levels. All the wings are really good three and D guys, and Ayton is really such a perfect big for them. Doesn’t need a lot of touches, finishes incredibly well at the rim, and can score when you let him shoot jumpers or post up. Even Dario getting the backup big minutes is a really good fit for them. 

I hadn't seen a ton of Ayton in the NBA, since Phoenix hasn't been good until this year, but I've been impressed with his touch around the rim and even out to 15ft or so. He's got good touch on his post moves, etc. 

But yes, that's just a well constructed roster. I wouldn't necessarily say the same about the Clippers roster. 

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5 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Does this stat shock anyone? 

 

DA8E9007-B873-4990-8047-BACD1283D860.png

Maybe a little, but it’s a small sample size and when you think about the fact that the Hawks haven’t really had many blow out wins but have gotten blown out a couple times by the 76ers and Bucks it makes sense. 

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