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7 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

This is true, might have even been 0-16.  But, he did other clutch things, just not that late in the game.  

Not saying he wasn't a very good player for the Pacers.  Just don't think he's good enough to support the public perception that the  Pacers got robbed in the George trade.  I also think that the NBA is the toughest sport to get credit for being a breakout star.  Aaron Judge can do it in his first season in MLB.  Carson Wentz can do it in his second season in the NFL.  But, Vic could average 24 points while George averages only 17, and people will still claim the Pacers got taken to the cleaners.  And, that doesn't even account what Sabonis brings to the table.  It's ludicrous how difficult it is to break a label in the NBA. 

 

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Sure, and it's early. Parker of course also is not currently playing with the Spurs. Not saying it wasn't a nice come back W for the P's, but it's not a signature win, it's an early season win with the Spurs missing two key players, and one of the top 3-5 players in the League.

Pacers were without two key players as well in Turner and Robinson.

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16 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Pacers were without two key players as well in Turner and Robinson.

Kawhi and Parker ten times what Turner and Robinson bring, but OK! I'm guessing you don't really think the Pacers are on the Spurs level. All I'm saying is a little perspective, nice win, but not one to say indicates that the P's are suddenly some kind of contending team. Here's to hoping they get there. Definitely some nice early showings.

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1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Kawhi and Parker ten times what Turner and Robinson bring, but OK! I'm guessing you don't really think the Pacers are on the Spurs level. All I'm saying is a little perspective, nice win, but not one to say indicates that the P's are suddenly some kind of contending team. Here's to hoping they get there. Definitely some nice early showings.

I never said they are a contending team but I feel like this trade is a lot better for the Pacers than you give it credit.  I think this team is a lot more enjoyable to watch because of the style of play.  They no longer use a lot of one on one isolation like they did with PG.. You see ball movement and off the ball screens and Sabonis is great at setting screens.  You don't see players whining to officials after every call like PG did.

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2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Kawhi and Parker ten times what Turner and Robinson bring, but OK! I'm guessing you don't really think the Pacers are on the Spurs level. All I'm saying is a little perspective, nice win, but not one to say indicates that the P's are suddenly some kind of contending team. Here's to hoping they get there. Definitely some nice early showings.

I'm sure you're being hyperbolic, but it isn't 10 times.  Parker is the worst of those four at this point in his career.  Turner is an All-Star level player this year.  Robinson is a very nice piece.  Leonard is the best, clearly, but let's not act like the Pacers aren't missing two starters. 

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Hoopster.

Have the Spurs and Pacers switch coaches.    Give me your opinion on what that does to the win total of each club.  

Is Pop worth 10 wins?  Using last season as a barometer, add 10 to the Pacers 42 and get 52.  Subtract 10 from the Spurs' 61 and get 51.  

I think we all can agree that Pop is one of the best coaches of all time (maybe THE best).  Nate McMillan is not.  

Are the rosters really that much different, or does Pop just make it seem so?

In regards to Vic/Sabonis versus George, you have two players that potentially are on the upswing versus a player that is likely starting a downswing, or is close to it.

It is entirely possible that Vic can prove this year that he was mis-used in Orlando and not a good fit in OKC.  Will people give him credit?  That remains to be seen.  But, f the stats and the Pacers record warrant it, I have no problem claiming at the end of the season that the Pacers got the better end of the deal

 

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6 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

My question now is, what happens when Turner does come back? This has become VO's team, but it was always supposed to be Turner's team.

I don't think Vic has the personality where he has to be THE alpha male.  I think he'd be glad to share the spotlight with Turner and that would healthy for the team.  Frankly, that's why his numbers weren't bigger in OKC, IMO. Westbrook is just a ball-dominant guard.

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Hoopster.

Have the Spurs and Pacers switch coaches.    Give me your opinion on what that does to the win total of each club.  

Is Pop worth 10 wins?  Using last season as a barometer, add 10 to the Pacers 42 and get 52.  Subtract 10 from the Spurs' 61 and get 51.  

I think we all can agree that Pop is one of the best coaches of all time (maybe THE best).  Nate McMillan is not.  

Are the rosters really that much different, or does Pop just make it seem so?

In regards to Vic/Sabonis versus George, you have two players that potentially are on the upswing versus a player that is likely starting a downswing, or is close to it.

It is entirely possible that Vic can prove this year that he was mis-used in Orlando and not a good fit in OKC.  Will people give him credit?  That remains to be seen.  But, f the stats and the Pacers record warrant it, I have no problem claiming at the end of the season that the Pacers got the better end of the deal

 

Fouls, what? There is no reason, whatsoever, to say PG is starting a downswing. He's in the prime of his career, and for the next several years. Comparing Vic and Sabonis -- and ESPECIALLY after a few early games and ignoring all of last season -- is completely baseless. Those players are on different planets, at this point.

On switching coaches, Pop is worth 10 wins, no question. He's the best coach in the NBA. But even that doesn't get you to add 10 wins to the Pacers win column vs. last season. Do you really think that a few games in, and the Pacers being at 3-3, they're capable of winning North of 50 games?? No way, not happening, no matter who the coach is. If I'm wrong on that I will GLADLY eat crow, but that' pure fantasy.

On a related note, though, look at what Vogel is doing in Orlando right now. He's killing it. He's playing up tempo, and thriving. And Bird, for reasons that are at best illogical, and at worst plain stupid, fired him for an assistant coach who has never been an uptempo coach and never was as successful as Vogel was leading the Pacers. I wonder where the Pacers would be if Larry Legend wasn't mindlessly firing his coach and losing his franchise player, along with others.

Yes, the rosters are that much different. I'm not sure how much you follow the NBA, but the Pacers roster and the Spurs roster are not on equal footing.

It's certainly possible that Vic and Sabonis will demonstrate that they are much better than everyone thought, right now. I hope so, that would be great for the Pacers. But we're 6 games into the regular season. The word premature comes to mind.

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1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sure you're being hyperbolic, but it isn't 10 times.  Parker is the worst of those four at this point in his career.  Turner is an All-Star level player this year.  Robinson is a very nice piece.  Leonard is the best, clearly, but let's not act like the Pacers aren't missing two starters. 

I don't know about hyperbolic, but no, Robinson is not better than Parker, aged or not. Turner may get there, but that remains to be seen. Leanord is obviously one the League's best, on both ends. Turner was a no show in the playoffs. I get the feeling that every time I post about the Pacers it's taken as some kind of afront, and there has to be a response saying I'm hyperbolic or whatever. That's ok, but I'm not intending to hate on the P's (Larry, yes, P's, no), all I'm saying is we are obviously very early into the 82 game season, and a W over the Spurs, missing those 2, at this point does not signal some fantastic triumph. (And they were down by 9 with under 7 minutes to go.) How about the Pistons? Wins at GS and at Clippers. Again, it's early. Meanwhile, GS is just 4-3, Cleveland is 3-4, etc. You know it's extremely early to try to draw conclusions on how good the P's are. 

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2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don't know about hyperbolic, but no, Robinson is not better than Parker, aged or not. Turner may get there, but that remains to be seen. Leanord is obviously one the League's best, on both ends. Turner was a no show in the playoffs. I get the feeling that every time I post about the Pacers it's taken as some kind of afront, and there has to be a response saying I'm hyperbolic or whatever. That's ok, but I'm not intending to hate on the P's (Larry, yes, P's, no), all I'm saying is we are obviously very early into the 82 game season, and a W over the Spurs, missing those 2, at this point does not signal some fantastic triumph. (And they were down by 9 with under 7 minutes to go.) How about the Pistons? Wins at GS and at Clippers. Again, it's early. Meanwhile, GS is just 4-3, Cleveland is 3-4, etc. You know it's extremely early to try to draw conclusions on how good the P's are. 

I don't really care if you hate on the Pacers or not. Here are facts I think we can all agree to:

  • You have a real disdain for Larry Bird and color your Pacers opinion based on thinking everything he did was bad. 
  • You group Paul George in a category very few would (nationally, locally and anywhere inbetween) with elite players. He's top 20, maybe top 15 but not elite like a clear top ten guy such as Curry, Leonard, Durant, James, Harden, Westbrook or Davis. 
  • Paul George is no longer on the Pacers and you think that loss is on par with one of those other guys changing teams. 

From my perspective, the combination of this team largely being a result of Larry Bird and Paul George leaving does color your perspective on the Pacers quite a bit. 

Is it possible Victor Oladipo, who coming out of college would've universally been considered the better prospect between he and PG, is closer to PG than you are willing to admit? And that whatever difference there is in the talent is made up for by their attitude? We can even say PG had a terrible attitude that impacted the team 100% because of Bird, but that doesn't change what it was and it doesn't change the Vic absolutely loves being here and being a key part of this team. 

I know you think I'm biased against PG, but I'm the one who ranks him right about where he is considered by most experts and you're the one who has him among the elite group of players that are annual MVP candidates.  I get it, we're talking about maybe your favorite guy in the NBA and your least favorite guy, that makes it hard to take emotion out of it.  

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28 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I don't really care if you hate on the Pacers or not. Here are facts I think we can all agree to:

  • You have a real disdain for Larry Bird and color your Pacers opinion based on thinking everything he did was bad. 
  • You group Paul George in a category very few would (nationally, locally and anywhere inbetween) with elite players. He's top 20, maybe top 15 but not elite like a clear top ten guy such as Curry, Leonard, Durant, James, Harden, Westbrook or Davis. 
  • Paul George is no longer on the Pacers and you think that loss is on par with one of those other guys changing teams. 

From my perspective, the combination of this team largely being a result of Larry Bird and Paul George leaving does color your perspective on the Pacers quite a bit. 

Is it possible Victor Oladipo, who coming out of college would've universally been considered the better prospect between he and PG, is closer to PG than you are willing to admit? And that whatever difference there is in the talent is made up for by their attitude? We can even say PG had a terrible attitude that impacted the team 100% because of Bird, but that doesn't change what it was and it doesn't change the Vic absolutely loves being here and being a key part of this team. 

I know you think I'm biased against PG, but I'm the one who ranks him right about where he is considered by most experts and you're the one who has him among the elite group of players that are annual MVP candidates.  I get it, we're talking about maybe your favorite guy in the NBA and your least favorite guy, that makes it hard to take emotion out of it.  

From a neutral perspective (not a fan of the Pacers), I think HH is pushing back on some undeserved hate PG gets on here.  It makes sense from a Pacers fan’s perspective, as PG pouted all last year when the team was at it’s lowest point after Bird blew everything up (firing Vogel was really dumb, and the culmination of a bunch of bad moves by Bird).  But prior to last season, and even at the end of last season, PG was a phenomenal player for the Pacers.  And I actually agree with you that PG is a top 15-20 player in the league, not top 10.

But at this point, Vic and Sabonas are nowhere near as valuable as PG is, in a vacuum.  And Vic might be getting a little too much hype so early in the season, although if he’s able to sustain this play we’ll have to reassess how good he is.  He just might have a chance to be an All-Star in the East this year.  Regardless, I’m sure it’s definitely refreshing to go from a player that wants out to a player that’s bought in.

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2 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

From a neutral perspective (not a fan of the Pacers), I think HH is pushing back on some undeserved hate PG gets on here.  It makes sense from a Pacers fan’s perspective, as PG pouted all last year when the team was at it’s lowest point after Bird blew everything up (firing Vogel was really dumb, and the culmination of a bunch of bad moves by Bird).  But prior to last season, and even at the end of last season, PG was a phenomenal player for the Pacers.  And I actually agree with you that PG is a top 15-20 player in the league, not top 10.

But at this point, Vic and Sabonas are nowhere near as valuable as PG is, in a vacuum.  And Vic might be getting a little too much hype so early in the season, although if he’s able to sustain this play we’ll have to reassess how good he is.  He just might have a chance to be an All-Star in the East this year.  Regardless, I’m sure it’s definitely refreshing to go from a player that wants out to a player that’s bought in.

That's a fair response. I'm not sure I've seen anyone say PG is out of the top 20 though, so maybe the hate isn't all that hateful?

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Didn't want to go back and find old thread after George trade went down. I do remember a few of us trying to point out it wasn't the fleece job the national folks thought it was. In fact a couple of us tried to say we actually won the trade for year 1 and beyond (after George heads to LA). Small sample size so far but things look good. I might actually get down to a few games this year. 

 

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9 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

That's a fair response. I'm not sure I've seen anyone say PG is out of the top 20 though, so maybe the hate isn't all that hateful?

The hate is kind of exemplified by IU Scott’s comment above.  Like I said, I get it because PG soured on the Pacers last season, but outside of last year, PG was never a “selfish” player that “lacked intangibles.”  He was the go-to player on some of the best teams in Pacers history.  He just decided he wanted out of Indy, and as HH has said, you can’t really blame him considering how Bird blew up the team.  He wasn’t the right fit for the Pacers anymore, but in the right situation he most certainly can be one of the go-to options on a championship contender.  

That makes it hard to say that Indy “won” the trade, as neither Vic or Sabonas is that type of player even in the best case scenario.  But given the circumstances, it’s looking more and more like the trade was a win-win for both teams.

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6 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

The hate is kind of exemplified by IU Scott’s comment above.  Like I said, I get it because PG soured on the Pacers last season, but outside of last year, PG was never a “selfish” player that “lacked intangibles.”  He was the go-to player on some of the best teams in Pacers history.  He just decided he wanted out of Indy, and as HH has said, you can’t really blame him considering how Bird blew up the team.  He wasn’t the right fit for the Pacers anymore, but in the right situation he most certainly can be one of the go-to options on a championship contender.  

That makes it hard to say that Indy “won” the trade, as neither Vic or Sabonas is that type of player even in the best case scenario.  But given the circumstances, it’s looking more and more like the trade was a win-win for both teams.

When I lost respect for PG was when they wanted to use him at the 4 and he refused to do it.  To me a player does what the coach thinks is best for the team.. To me PG put himself in front of the team and i never could respect him again.  if you live in the Indy area you would know that a lot of the media did not really have to much respect for PG as well and it has been going on more than a year.

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11 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

When I lost respect for PG was when they wanted to use him at the 4 and he refused to do it.  To me a player does what the coach thinks is best for the team.. To me PG put himself in front of the team and i never could respect him again.  if you live in the Indy area you would know that a lot of the media did not really have to much respect for PG as well and it has been going on more than a year.

“The media” is incredibly stupid.  Especially the clowns that dominate the Indy market.

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1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

“The media” is incredibly stupid.  Especially the clowns that dominate the Indy market.

Sure, there are some bad voices in Indy media.  There are also some good, plugged into the Pacers voices that felt that way too. 

 

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

The hate is kind of exemplified by IU Scott’s comment above.  Like I said, I get it because PG soured on the Pacers last season, but outside of last year, PG was never a “selfish” player that “lacked intangibles.”  He was the go-to player on some of the best teams in Pacers history.  He just decided he wanted out of Indy, and as HH has said, you can’t really blame him considering how Bird blew up the team.  He wasn’t the right fit for the Pacers anymore, but in the right situation he most certainly can be one of the go-to options on a championship contender.  

That makes it hard to say that Indy “won” the trade, as neither Vic or Sabonas is that type of player even in the best case scenario.  But given the circumstances, it’s looking more and more like the trade was a win-win for both teams.

PG has some very obvious talent.  I'd argue all day that his talent far exceeds what you actually get, so yes he has intangibles.  That said, the fact that he has never hit a game winner says something.  I'm going to throw my BS flag on him being on some of the best Pacers teams ever.  Those couple years were very good, but they weren't anything stand out from what we had in the 90's and until the fight in the 2000's.  They weren't better than the 70's.  They just happened to be in a very weak conference.  

Not trying to bash PG, but when was he ever the reason the Pacers won anything in the playoffs?  

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