NBA Thread

[FW_Hoosier]

8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Sure, there are some bad voices in Indy media.  There are also some good, plugged into the Pacers voices that felt that way too. 

 

PG has some very obvious talent.  I'd argue all day that his talent far exceeds what you actually get, so yes he has intangibles.  That said, the fact that he has never hit a game winner says something.  I'm going to throw my BS flag on him being on some of the best Pacers teams ever.  Those couple years were very good, but they weren't anything stand out from what we had in the 90's and until the fight in the 2000's.  They weren't better than the 70's.  They just happened to be in a very weak conference.  

Not trying to bash PG, but when was he ever the reason the Pacers won anything in the playoffs?  

Lol see, you say he’s a top 15-20 player, then turn around and say the teams he was on were overrated and he never did anything for the Pacers.  That is PG bashing.  He was largely responsible for 2 of the 6 division titles the Pacers have ever won in the history of the franchise, and 2 of the 8 trips they have ever made to the conference finals.  Saying those Pacers teams were not among the best Pacers teams ever is pretty ridiculous.  And sorry, no one cares about the ABA.

The Pacers do not come close to reaching back-to-back conference finals without PG, much less taking the Heat to the brink.  Saying PG was never the reason the Pacers won anything in the playoffs is just wrong, and exactly the type of biased PG bashing I’m talking about.

[KoB2011]

1 minute ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Lol see, you say he’s a top 15-20 player, then turn around and say the teams he was on were overrated and he never did anything for the Pacers.  That is PG bashing.  He was largely responsible for 2 of the 6 division titles the Pacers have ever won in the history of the franchise, and 2 of the 8 trips they have ever made to the conference finals.  Saying those Pacers teams were not among the best Pacers teams ever is pretty ridiculous.  And sorry, no one cares about the ABA.

The Pacers do not come close to reaching back-to-back conference finals without PG, much less taking the Heat to the brink.  Saying PG was never the reason the Pacers won anything in the playoffs is just wrong, and exactly the type of biased PG bashing I’m talking about.

I don't think it's bashing to point out that the Eastern Conference was really, really bad during those years.  I don't think it's unfair to point out the division was the worst in the NBA, sans the Pacers, during those years.  Could PG have risen to the occasion if he'd had a real chance?  Maybe, probably, but we don't know.  

Andrew Luck has won 3 division titles and made an AFC championship game, I don't think he's accomplished much either.  If you can't look at the road someone has to take to do that and factor it in to the level of accomplishment I'm not sure we are having the same discussion. 

[KoB2011]

Essentially, you're saying that those two PG teams are better than a lot of the 90's teams just because the 90's teams had a much tougher road.  That's not how I evaluate how good a team is personally, but you do you man. 

[FW_Hoosier]

3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Essentially, you're saying that those two PG teams are better than a lot of the 90's teams just because the 90's teams had a much tougher road.  That's not how I evaluate how good a team is personally, but you do you man. 

The PG Pacers teams were eliminated by a historically great Heat team 3 years in a row, and took them to 6 or more games every time... Meanwhile the 90s Pacers teams were eliminated by a historically great Bulls team once.  Who really had the tougher road?  But hey, if you want to discount two of the eight great seasons the Pacers have ever had in the NBA because you hate the player that got you there, you do you.  I’m glad you guys are happy he’s gone, but it’ll be a while before you’re ever that good again.

[IU Scott]

9 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

The PG Pacers teams were eliminated by a historically great Heat team 3 years in a row, and took them to 6 or more games every time... Meanwhile the 90s Pacers teams were eliminated by a historically great Bulls team once.  Who really had the tougher road?  But hey, if you want to discount two of the eight great seasons the Pacers have ever had in the NBA because you hate the player that got you there, you do you.  I’m glad you guys are happy he’s gone, but it’ll be a while before you’re ever that good again.

The NBA back in the 90's were a lot better than the NBA of today and it is not close.  You had more quality depth in the NBA instead of 2 or 3 really great teams that you have today. With expansion it has totally diluted the NBA where it has taken the competitive balance away in the NBA.  I would take the Kicks and even the Magic with Shaq and Hardaway over those Heat teams.

[FW_Hoosier]

You guys are right, getting beat down in the first round by the Pistons and Knicks, losing in the first round to mediocre Celtics and Hawks teams, and missing the playoffs entirely were very impressive performances by the 90s Pacers teams that didn’t make it to the ECF.  Definitely way more successful seasons than the PG Pacers teams had.

[IU Scott]

24 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

You guys are right, getting beat down in the first round by the Pistons and Knicks, losing in the first round to mediocre Celtics and Hawks teams, and missing the playoffs entirely were very impressive performances by the 90s Pacers teams that didn’t make it to the ECF.  Definitely way more successful seasons than the PG Pacers teams had.

They did to make the ECF in the 90's so I have no idea what you are talking about. They were in the ECF in 94, 95, 98, 99, and 2000 while going to the NBA championship.

[FW_Hoosier]

18 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

They did to make the ECF in the 90's so I have no idea what you are talking about. They were in the ECF in 94, 95, 98, 99, and 2000 while going to the NBA championship.

And I never said the PG teams were better than those teams.

[CauseThatsMyDJ]

Without David West, those PG teams never make the ECF. Paul George is not a leader, as was readily apparent after West left. He's in a good place now that Russell can be the leader and Paul doesn't have to do anything.

[IU Scott]

21 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

And I never said the PG teams were better than those teams.

Then why did you say that they never made the ECF then.

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Without David West, those PG teams never make the ECF. Paul George is not a leader, as was readily apparent after West left. He's in a good place now that Russell can be the leader and Paul doesn't have to do anything.

Spot on. The team fell off WITH Paul George on the team for two more seasons. Especially last year, many thought they'd compete for a top 4 seed and they flopped. The reason David West wanted out wasn't Larry Bird, it's who was left on the team. 

[CauseThatsMyDJ]

Pacers crushing the Kings by 25 at halftime. 

[Indykev]

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

On 10/30/2017 at 7:24 PM, KoB2011 said:

I don't really care if you hate on the Pacers or not. Here are facts I think we can all agree to:

• You have a real disdain for Larry Bird and color your Pacers opinion based on thinking everything he did was bad. 
• You group Paul George in a category very few would (nationally, locally and anywhere inbetween) with elite players. He's top 20, maybe top 15 but not elite like a clear top ten guy such as Curry, Leonard, Durant, James, Harden, Westbrook or Davis. 
• Paul George is no longer on the Pacers and you think that loss is on par with one of those other guys changing teams. 

From my perspective, the combination of this team largely being a result of Larry Bird and Paul George leaving does color your perspective on the Pacers quite a bit. 

Is it possible Victor Oladipo, who coming out of college would've universally been considered the better prospect between he and PG, is closer to PG than you are willing to admit? And that whatever difference there is in the talent is made up for by their attitude? We can even say PG had a terrible attitude that impacted the team 100% because of Bird, but that doesn't change what it was and it doesn't change the Vic absolutely loves being here and being a key part of this team. 

I know you think I'm biased against PG, but I'm the one who ranks him right about where he is considered by most experts and you're the one who has him among the elite group of players that are annual MVP candidates.  I get it, we're talking about maybe your favorite guy in the NBA and your least favorite guy, that makes it hard to take emotion out of it.  

Oh man, come on KoB. You know I appreciate your thoughts and posts, but what is the deal with your revisionist and continuing downgrading of PG? 

Now he's supposedly top 20, "maybe top 15, and nationally, very few would agree with my view of PG, locally and anywhere inbetween? 

First, no one considers PG top 20, "maybe top 15." He is considered by everyone top 15 or better. Geez, when espn did their silly ranking and had him top 13 you came back pointing that out as to why he wasn't top 10. I am going to say this again, whether he's top 10 or top 15 he's one of the best players in the NBA, a "superstar," according to basically everyone besides you. And it is clearly borne out by his stats and what he did for the Pacers, for years, including the year after his injury. Again, those stats include:

In 2015-16, after his injury, 7th in the League in defensive win shares, 10th in ppg, 6th in 3-point FGs, and 11th in VORP. Maybe top 20, seriously? Come on.

Yes, he had a falloff year last year, no question, but of course that came with a stupid roster overhaul including the loss of GH. The Teague experiment was a clear failure. And you're just ignoring what PG did from March 1 forward last year and into the playoffs. He still finished 15th overall in PPG, and 12th in 3-point FGs, and 15th in steals.

Then there's what he did with the Pacers, when despite your continuing attempts to minimize his contributions, he was the lead star against LeBron's NC winning teams. Leading up to and during that time, he was 1

1st overall in defensive win shares (2012-13),

2nd overall in defensive win shares (2013-14),

12th in PPG (2013-14), 10th in 3-point FG's (2012-13),

13th in 3-point FGs (2013-14),

9th in VORP (2012-13 and 2013-14), and

6th and 4th in steals (2012-13 and 2013-14). 

Clearly not elite? Right. You want to name 15 other players during that time period with matching or better stats? He is, hands down, one of the best players in the League, whether you like him or not. And he did all that with the Pacers, and as one of the best two-way players in the League - again, as recognized by everyone except you. And no, I'm not the one who's biased here, I'm not coloring my view of PG because of how badly Larry Bird screwed the pooch on that EC contending team and then fired Vogel -- you think that was a good move?? I really don't get why you are so hell bent on dismissing everything that PG did for the Pacers and what his numbers obviously show and how well regarded, as a superstar, he is throughout the NBA. But the P's have moved on, and their early play, with Vic -- who I will always root for -- is looking great, so why not just enjoy that instead of lambasting PG and my posts about him? BTW, other than our back and forth on PG, which always seems to escalate, I really enjoy your posts. You bring a lot of knowledge and good thoughts.

Meanwhile - nice W for the P's tonight over Sacto

And PG is leading the Thunder right now over a very good Bucks team, 85 - 64 in the 3d, PG with 20 and +16 (both team highs)

 

 

[CauseThatsMyDJ]

And a team high 17 shots to get those 20 points. Quintessential PG. 

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

And a team high 17 shots to get those 20 points. Quintessential PG. 

 

Another? He's 8-17 (4-8 from 3), tell me how that's bad. What is with you guys?

Oh yeah, it's also at the Bucks, and it's now 93-66. What a slacker.

[KoB2011]

21 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Oh man, come on KoB. You know I appreciate your thoughts and posts, but what is the deal with your revisionist and continuing downgrading of PG? 

Now he's supposedly top 20, "maybe top 15, and nationally, very few would agree with my view of PG, locally and anywhere inbetween? 

First, no one considers PG top 20, "maybe top 15." He is considered by everyone top 15 or better. Geez, when espn did their silly ranking and had him top 13 you came back pointing that out as to why he wasn't top 10. I am going to say this again, whether he's top 10 or top 15 he's one of the best players in the NBA, a "superstar," according to basically everyone besides you. And it is clearly borne out by his stats and what he did for the Pacers, for years, including the year after his injury. Again, those stats include:

In 2015-16, after his injury, 7th in the League in defensive win shares, 10th in ppg, 6th in 3-point FGs, and 11th in VORP. Maybe top 20, seriously? Come on.

Yes, he had a falloff year last year, no question, but of course that came with a stupid roster overhaul including the loss of GH. The Teague experiment was a clear failure. And you're just ignoring what PG did from March 1 forward last year and into the playoffs. He still finished 15th overall in PPG, and 12th in 3-point FGs, and 15th in steals.

Then there's what he did with the Pacers, when despite your continuing attempts to minimize his contributions, he was the lead star against LeBron's NC winning teams. Leading up to and during that time, he was 1

1st overall in defensive win shares (2012-13),

2nd overall in defensive win shares (2013-14),

12th in PPG (2013-14), 10th in 3-point FG's (2012-13),

13th in 3-point FGs (2013-14),

9th in VORP (2012-13 and 2013-14), and

6th and 4th in steals (2012-13 and 2013-14). 

Clearly not elite? Right. You want to name 15 other players during that time period with matching or better stats? He is, hands down, one of the best players in the League, whether you like him or not. And he did all that with the Pacers, and as one of the best two-way players in the League - again, as recognized by everyone except you. And no, I'm not the one who's biased here, I'm not coloring my view of PG because of how badly Larry Bird screwed the pooch on that EC contending team and then fired Vogel -- you think that was a good move?? I really don't get why you are so hell bent on dismissing everything that PG did for the Pacers and what his numbers obviously show and how well regarded, as a superstar, he is throughout the NBA. But the P's have moved on, and their early play, with Vic -- who I will always root for -- is looking great, so why not just enjoy that instead of lambasting PG and my posts about him? BTW, other than our back and forth on PG, which always seems to escalate, I really enjoy your posts. You bring a lot of knowledge and good thoughts.

Meanwhile - nice W for the P's tonight over Sacto

And PG is leading the Thunder right now over a very good Bucks team, 85 - 64 in the 3d, PG with 20 and +16 (both team highs)

 

 

I think the biggest problem with the conversation is you to believe what he did the two years before the injury are relevant to the player he is today. Besides that being a long time ago, it was a major injury ago. Who cares of John Wall or KAT don't have better numbers in 2013? Both are better now. I actually just named a list of players a few days ago I'd put in front of PG and a list of players he'd fall somewhere in. You didn't respond to that and you continue to refuse to give a list so you can argue straw men. 

If you want a real discussion, tell us your top 10 so we can see who you are leaving out in favor of PG and have a real discussion. That seems incredibly simple so why hasn't it happened?

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

I think the biggest poblem with the conversation is you to believe what he did the two years before the injury are relevant to the player he is today. Besides that being a long time ago, it was a major injury ago. Who cares of John Wall or KAT don't have better numbers in 2013? Both are better now. I actually just named a list of players a few days ago I'd put in front of PG and a list of players he'd fall somewhere in. You didn't respond to that and you continue to refuse to give a list so you can argue straw men. 

If you want a real discussion, tell us your top 10 so we can see who you are leaving out in favor of PG and have a real discussion. That seems incredibly simple so why hasn't it happened?

Straw man. You can't dismiss his obvious top 10-15 stats, so you come back with this. First of all, again, you ignore the stats I posted on his year AFTER the injury. He was outstanding. And yes, what he did in the years leading up to the injury are obviously relevant to what he's done. Then he did it immediately again after the injury. The ONLY bad year for him was last year -- and he, again, as he has every single year of his career, excluding the year he lost to injury, raised his PPG. You can list whoever you want, that doesn't change anything. Your continuing attempts to minimize and disregard don't change a thing, man.

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Straw man. You can't dismiss his obvious top 10-15 stats, so you come back with this. First of all, again, you ignore the stats I posted on his year AFTER the injury. He was outstanding. And yes, what he did in the years leading up to the injury are obviously relevant to what he's done. Then he did it immediately again after the injury. The ONLY bad year for him was last year -- and he, again, as he has every single year of his career, excluding the year he lost to injury, raised his PPG. You can list whoever you want, that doesn't change anything. Your continuing attempts to minimize and disregard don't change a thing, man.

I guess I've never really discussed what he's done, it isn't relevant to what he is now in my mind. Can you explain why it is?

There's stats that show him out of the top 20 all together. @5fouls posted them on 247 and you got very upset IIRC. One of them is PER. 

Again, this should be simple, rank the NBA players. Stop when you get to PG so we can have an actual discussion and not a strawman. You say he is a clear top 10 guy and elite but consistently refuse to give us a comparison to prove that out. If you can't simply say the guys PG is better than then I'll assume it's because you know he isn't better than as many guys as you'd like for us to believe. 

 

[KoB2011]

And yes, I enjoy your posts too my man. Even those I disagree with about PG and cars. 

I've actually been looking hard at a move to the dark side in cars recently. 

I think we could settle a lot of the disagreement if we could just sit down and have a beer in real life. Then go drive your AMG. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by KoB2011

[FKIM01]

I'm enjoying the debate.  Here's my prediction...the Pacers will be a better team without him this year than they were with him last year. Bold?  Maybe...and maybe very wrong but I really like the chemistry I'm seeing in this year's group.  If only they had Frank Vogel to coach them...THAT, I agree, was a monumental mistake on Bird's part.

[KoB2011]

Pacers with a double digits win in Cleveland on the second night of a back to back. Vic and Sabonis combine for 38/14/13. 

LBJ cut it to 5 then Vic took over to close it out. Vic is very clearly thriving as a leader and a closer. Go Vic!

[5fouls]

Vic and Sabonis combine for 38 points, 14 boards, and 13 assists, to help the Pacers defeat the Cavs in Cleveland.  And, on the 2nd night of a back-to back to boot.

 

Edit:  And, no...KOB and I are not the same person.  Nor is he one of my ex-wives 

Edited November 2, 2017 by 5fouls

[Hoosierhoopster]

21 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

And yes, I enjoy your posts too my man. Even those I disagree with about PG and cars. 

I've actually been looking hard at a move to the dark side in cars recently. 

I think we could settle a lot of the disagreement if we could just sit down and have a beer in real life. Then go drive your AMG. 

Now that sounds good! 

The Dark Side - Benz, is calling to you

[Hoosierhoopster]

5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Vic and Sabonis combine for 38 points, 14 boards, and 13 assists, to help the Pacers defeat the Cavs in Cleveland.  And, on the 2nd night of a back-to back to boot.

 

Edit:  And, no...KOB and I are not the same person.  Nor is he one of my ex-wives 

That's great -- particularly because both were off early, Vic was like 2-10, and then they turned it around. Great to see Vic doing so well.

On the flip side, this also isn't a barometer game. Cavs have lost something like 3 straight home games (and to bad teams), I think the longest in LeBron's career. Things are not kosher in Cleveland right now