NBA Thread

[Seeking6]

5 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Holy ****.  That had to be the craziest day in NBA offseason history.  How can anyone say the NBA isn’t entertaining?  I was glued to my phone today checking the updates.

And today showed that saying “small market teams can’t compete in the NBA” is just dumb.  The Pacers had a very solid offseason, getting comparable/better talent than what they lost.  Utah just put themselves into the discussion as the best team in the West, and New Orleans is going to be better than they were with AD, with a ton of assets to boot.  Milwaukee managed to keep its roster mostly intact.  Any team in the NBA can win a championship if it’s competently managed.

Yep. The small market stuff has just been a crutch for years for owners/fans. If a team is run correctly....anything can happen. Like you said yesterday was a perfect example of it. 

[IU Scott]

11 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

Philly won't get much help with the sign and trade.  Gotta think with them losing the best of their backcourt and only adding Horford,  pacers passed them back today.  Think we contend with bucks, celtics are good and may blossom but they lose terry and kyrie and horford, add Kemba.  Khawi, what are you doing? 

Pacers could be in the thick.  

With VO missing until at least January I don't see the Pacers contending on the East this year.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

Yep. The small market stuff has just been a crutch for years for owners/fans. If a team is run correctly....anything can happen. Like you said yesterday was a perfect example of it. 

Yeah the Pacers has to get creative...it was still a trade not a free agent signing. We gave up a first rd pick so there is some risk there. That said a young second tier guy that could take that next step is the guys that need to target...the Victors and Brogdons of the NBA. If they strike gold again then we might have something special building.

[dgambill]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

With VO missing until at least January I don't see the Pacers contending on the East this year.

Yeah..new pieces in important positions. Young guys got to step up. I think we should be in the playoff picture and then with Victor back we see how it comes together. If we can get back to the 4-5 spot  again anything can happen. Brooklyn is a couple years away...Detroit not better...Philly downgraded....Milwaukee downgraded...if Kawhi goes west...Toronto downgraded...leaving only Boston maybe better maybe same.

[Seeking6]

2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Yeah the Pacers has to get creative...it was still a trade not a free agent signing. We gave up a first rd pick so there is some risk there. That said a young second tier guy that could take that next step is the guys that need to target...the Victors and Brogdons of the NBA. If they strike gold again then we might have something special building.

Very well said. Target the young up and coming second tier guys is perfect. Hopefully we hit because if Vic can return to form (even in January) the East is pretty wide open. Could be just a matter of getting hot at the right time in March. 

[dwtaylor1055]

9 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Yeah the Pacers has to get creative...it was still a trade not a free agent signing. We gave up a first rd pick so there is some risk there. That said a young second tier guy that could take that next step is the guys that need to target...the Victors and Brogdons of the NBA. If they strike gold again then we might have something special building.

the 1st rd pick would likely be between 18 and 23 like in years past.  Pacers could always buy their way in should they really like someone in the draft that they do not have a 1st rd pick. 

 

Pacers improved yesterday.  Yes we lost a lot of leadership, however they improved their shooting, defense shooting and creating off the dribble.  Overall I really like how yesterday turned out, plus the Pacers still have about $5.5 mil left prior to hitting the cap and the room exception at $4.7.  Pacers also got younger Thad/Bojan/DC were all 30/31 where as Warren/Lamb/Brogdon are all 26/27.  Vic is is 27, Myles and Sabonis are younger, Holiday is like 23. 

 

Right now the 8 playoff teams for the East are: Nets/Bucks/Raptors(depending what Kawhi does)/76ers/Celtics/Pacers/Hawks/Pistons.  If Pacers maintain playoff positioning all next season while VIc is out and Vic returns to say 90% of what he was pre-injury, this team will be a top 4 team in the East with the chance to improve moving forward.  .   

Edited July 1, 2019 by dwtaylor1055

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Yeah..new pieces in important positions. Young guys got to step up. I think we should be in the playoff picture and then with Victor back we see how it comes together. If we can get back to the 4-5 spot  again anything can happen. Brooklyn is a couple years away...Detroit not better...Philly downgraded....Milwaukee downgraded...if Kawhi goes west...Toronto downgraded...leaving only Boston maybe better maybe same.

As of tight now I would see the top 4 seeds in the East

1) Milwaukee

2) Toronto-if Kawahi comes back

3) Boston

4) Philadelphia

 

[dwtaylor1055]

Just now, IU Scott said:

As of tight now I would see the top 4 seeds in the East

1) Milwaukee

2) Toronto-if Kawahi comes back

3) Boston

4) Philadelphia

 

My top 7 right now assuming Kawhi leaves:

1.) Bucks

2.) 76ers

3.) Nets

4.) Boston

5.) Pacers

6.) Raptors

7.) Hawks

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

My top 7 right now assuming Kawhi leaves:

1.) Bucks

2.) 76ers

3.) Nets

4.) Boston

5.) Pacers

6.) Raptors

7.) Hawks

I don't see the Nets this year being that high and I still think the Raptors would still be a top for even if Kawahi leaves.

To me the off season is way more entertaining than the actual season is in the NBA.

Also I would like to see the Pacers add a couple of more rotation players for their bench especially a wing that can back up Lamb until VO gets back.  I don't think I could trust Summner to be the backup 2 yet so we need someone there.  Also I don't know about Leaf getting big minutes as a backup big.

[cybergates]

Guess I'm in the minority here, but I don't like the Brogdon pick up. I like him as a player, but given that what we signed him for (4yr/$85mil), that we traded 2020 1st rd pick and two 2nd rounders, and his injury history, I'd rather have re-signed Cory Joseph for 3y/$37mil that he got with the Kings. Per 36min #s for both through their same age seasons are similar enough that I don't see why you'd pay that much $ and picks for the upgrade to Brogdon. Add in the fact that you have Holiday and hope he's your PG of the future and the move doesn't make much sense to me. If they'd done the deal with Joseph instead they could have paid Bojan the 4yr/$73mil he got from the Jazz (saving 12mil and 3 picks over the Brogdon deal). Not sure if that leaves enough for the Lamb deal, but I think Joseph, Bojan (more room for Holiday to grow) > Brogdon, Lamb, minus 3picks.

Thru same age (26years old):

Career (Brodgon 26 years old-3 seasons, Joseph 27 years old-8 seasons):

Edit - after seeing how heavily protected the 1st round pick is and my feeling of the relative lack of value in 2nd rd picks, I feel much better about the deal given Brogdon stays healthy, not that anyone cares...

Edited July 8, 2019 by cybergates

[dgambill]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I don't see the Nets this year being that high and I still think the Raptors would still be a top for even if Kawahi leaves.

To me the off season is way more entertaining than the actual season is in the NBA.

Also I would like to see the Pacers add a couple of more rotation players for their bench especially a wing that can back up Lamb until VO gets back.  I don't think I could trust Summner to be the backup 2 yet so we need someone there.  Also I don't know about Leaf getting big minutes as a backup big.

Agreed. We can’t count on when we will see Victor. Another guard in the rotation, another back up big, and an athletic defensive minded wing to play the 3. Doug McDermott either needs to step up a lot bigger this year or we have to move him. He gave us nothing this past year. I like the youth movement but we lost leadership at pg and forward....just hope the guys we brought in are leaders (and I think they are). Maybe we thing Sumner and Johnson can be the two and three we need and maybe we want to get Leaf more playing time...we may not do more and just use flexibility during the season in case a trade opens up. Yes...free agency > nba regular season.

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, cybergates said:

Guess I'm in the minority here, but I don't like the Brogdon pick up. I like him as a player, but given that what we signed him for (4yr/$85mil), that we traded 2020 1st rd pick and two 2nd rounders, and his injury history, I'd rather have re-signed Cory Joseph for 3y/$37mil that he got with the Kings. Per 36min #s for both through their same age seasons are similar enough that I don't see why you'd pay that much $ and picks for the upgrade to Brogdon. Add in the fact that you have Holiday and hope he's your PG of the future and the move doesn't make much sense to me. If they'd done the deal with Joseph instead they could have paid Bojan the 4yr/$73mil he got from the Jazz (saving 12mil and 3 picks over the Brogdon deal). Not sure if that leaves enough for the Lamb deal, but I think Joseph, Bojan (more room for Holiday to grow) > Brogdon, Lamb, minus 3picks.

Thru same age (26years old):

Career (Brodgon 26 years old-3 seasons, Joseph 27 years old-8 seasons):

You are about the only one that doesn't like the signing because everyone I have heard talked about it loves the pickup for the Pacers.  No way I would have given Joseph that much money because he is not a starter and really don't understand what Sacramento is doing with their money.

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, dgambill said:

Agreed. We can’t count on when we will see Victor. Another guard in the rotation, another back up big, and an athletic defensive minded wing to play the 3. Doug McDermott either needs to step up a lot bigger this year or we have to move him. He gave us nothing this past year. I like the youth movement but we lost leadership at pg and forward....just hope the guys we brought in are leaders (and I think they are). Maybe we thing Sumner and Johnson can be the two and three we need and maybe we want to get Leaf more playing time...we may not do more and just use flexibility during the season in case a trade opens up. Yes...free agency > nba regular season.

To me with McDermott the coaches did not use him correctly all the time.  he needs to be moving all the time coming off screens but a lot of the time he was just put in a corner to stand around.

[cybergates]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

You are about the only one that doesn't like the signing because everyone I have heard talked about it loves the pickup for the Pacers.  No way I would have given Joseph that much money because he is not a starter and really don't understand what Sacramento is doing with their money.

Yes, that's what I'm in the minority means. 

[BADGERVOL]

You guys are gonna love Brogdon because I’m gonna miss him. Lol

[dwtaylor1055]

26 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I don't see the Nets this year being that high and I still think the Raptors would still be a top for even if Kawahi leaves.

To me the off season is way more entertaining than the actual season is in the NBA.

Also I would like to see the Pacers add a couple of more rotation players for their bench especially a wing that can back up Lamb until VO gets back.  I don't think I could trust Summner to be the backup 2 yet so we need someone there.  Also I don't know about Leaf getting big minutes as a backup big.

Lamb is the #2 right now.  Depth chart as of right now till Vic returns:

Starters - Brogdon/Lamb/Warren/Sabonis/Turner

Bench - Holiday/Sumner or another player/McDerrmott/Leaf/Goga.

 

Add another SG via free agency.  Remember, Brodgon can play either PG or SG.  Warren can play either SF or PF.  Lamb can play either SG or SF.  This team can slide players all over the place with their length and quickness

[Seeking6]

4 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

You guys are gonna love Brogdon because I’m gonna miss him. Lol

My cousin works at Marquette. Big Bucks fan.  When news broke last night he was ticked. Said Brogdon is not only a very good player but a perfect locker room and fit guy for Pacers and what the city/state look for in their hoops players. Of course every signing or draft has some risk (his is injury history) but his upside to me is far greater than upside of others we let go. Worth the risk in my opinion.

[Hoosierhoopster]

10 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

He was going to make that with a long list of teams.  One of them on the jump said d wade is his mentor and all and this is where he was wanting to go all along.  

Butler has a super star switch that only got ignored by a shot that went in after bouncing 4 or 5 times.  

Plus Reddick averages 3 3s a game.  Gone.  I do think their offense opens up a little, due to less shot demand.  Embid can shoot but do you want the most skilled big man jacking 3s?

Butler's a strong player, but he was not having a good year with Philly until the playoffs. That tends to get forgotten. He is a locker room cancer everywhere he's gone. Things were starting to work for him in Philly though, that team was a contender. So he jumps ship for money again. It's all about money for him.

[NotIThatLives]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

With VO missing until at least January I don't see the Pacers contending on the East this year.

I'm talking come playoffs.  Everyone is always optimistic around here and gets chastised for being slightly negative.  No reason to bet against Vic.  Lots of ifs but I like the balanced attack options now.  

As @dgambill said, ". Brooklyn is a couple years away...Detroit not better...Philly downgraded....Milwaukee downgraded...if Kawhi goes west...Toronto downgraded...leaving only Boston maybe better maybe same."

Edited July 1, 2019 by NotIThatLives

[NotIThatLives]

2 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Butler's a strong player, but he was not having a good year with Philly until the playoffs. That tends to get forgotten. He is a locker room cancer everywhere he's gone. Things were starting to work for him in Philly though, that team was a contender. So he jumps ship for money again. It's all about money for him.

He became the team alpha in the playoffs, played really top 10 playoff ball.  He could have gotten 5 years with Philly, took 4 with heat.  I agree he's been cancer but the dude would have been talked about in a much different light had the shot bounced 4 times and went off and into overtime and then win.  He would be NBA champ and finals mvp.  4 bounces, four. 

What's different about signing with Miami vs Brooklyn vs 5 at Philly vs clips vs Lakers vs houston or anyone else that would have given him literally the exact same contract?  State income tax?  Houston doesn't pay state tax.  Miami is his team.  He's following in wades footsteps,  something evidently has been his plan for a while. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

55 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

You are about the only one that doesn't like the signing because everyone I have heard talked about it loves the pickup for the Pacers.  No way I would have given Joseph that much money because he is not a starter and really don't understand what Sacramento is doing with their money.

Agree Scott.

Joseph is a point guard who finished last year shooting .32 from the arc and .45 FGs. Efg .46. Total rebounds 3.4. Averaged 6.5 points.

Brogdan is entering his 4th year, a rising star. Really a 2-guard. Finished last year shooting .43 from the arc, as in 11% better, .54 FG, .58 efg (12 percent better), a 93% free throw shooter and a member of the 90-50-40 club, 4.5 rebounds, and averaged 15.6 points -- his scoring has increased each year he's played. Brog is flat out better and an investment in the future. Very good move, imo.  

[NotIThatLives]

@Hoosierhoopster. Butler left 48 mil on the table leaving Philly.  That's not chasing money.  

4 year 142 heat.  5 year 190 Philly.  

I wouldn't want him on my team but he proved himself yet again in the playoffs.   It is what it is.  I'm not asking you to agree or anything and we can agree to disagree though I'm not sure what the disagreement is lol.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

He became the team alpha in the playoffs, played really top 10 playoff ball.  He could have gotten 5 years with Philly, took 4 with heat.  I agree he's been cancer but the dude would have been talked about in a much different light had the shot bounced 4 times and went off and into overtime and then win.  He would be NBA champ and finals mvp.  4 bounces, four. 

What's different about signing with Miami vs Brooklyn vs 5 at Philly vs clips vs Lakers vs houston or anyone else that would have given him literally the exact same contract?  State income tax?  Houston doesn't pay state tax.  Miami is his team.  He's following in wades footsteps,  something evidently has been his plan for a while. 

Philly would've had to get past the Bucks, they might have but Finals champs and MVP? He wouldn't have been finals MVP, and I think they would've struggled against the Bucks. He had a strong playoffs for sure, and again I think he should've stayed in Philly and was finding a fit, but he's all about money, what matters to him, is him and money. The narrative about following in Wade's footsteps is a narrative, whether it's true is questionable. Look at his last several teams and what he's done with each, and how he's left each. With Philly there's Embiid et al., that's a contender. Where is Miami right now? Hes more like Kyrie in this regard, run to a team to be the man, didn't work out for Kyrie, doubt it works out for him. 

Butler is a strong player, but he's not a top 10 guy, he's not a franchise player who leads a team to a championship or even to the conference finals. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, NotIThatLives said:

@Hoosierhoopster. Butler left 48 mil on the table leaving Philly.  That's not chasing money.  

4 year 142 heat.  5 year 190 Philly.  

I wouldn't want him on my team but he proved himself yet again in the playoffs.   It is what it is.  I'm not asking you to agree or anything and we can agree to disagree though I'm not sure what the disagreement is lol.  

4 years vs. 5 is not leaving money on the table.

[NotIThatLives]

4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

4 years vs. 5 is not leaving money on the table.

You lost me.  He'll be going on 35 at the end of this 4 year.  If he doesn't retire he can probably get the veterans minimum if he's still healthy.  I dont understand your argument because factually he left money on the table.