NBA Thread

[dwtaylor1055]

17 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

hopefully they can bring in a couple of more bench players because right now I don't think the bench can compete right now.

Holiday

Summner

McDermott

Leag

Goga

I agree I think our bench is def a weak spot.  I would like to see them bring in say sefalosha(spelling error on my part I believe) to play at SG or SF or Jae Crowder to play at PF or SF.  Once Vic comes back, if they bring him back slow off the bench, it looks like Holiday/Vic/McDermott/Leaf or Warren/Goga would be solid. 

[BGleas]

12 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

I agree I think our bench is def a weak spot.  I would like to see them bring in say sefalosha(spelling error on my part I believe) to play at SG or SF or Jae Crowder to play at PF or SF.  Once Vic comes back, if they bring him back slow off the bench, it looks like Holiday/Vic/McDermott/Leaf or Warren/Goga would be solid. 

Agree on the bench currently for the Pacers, but the caveat to that is the Celtics and Sixers also look pretty weak on the bench at the moment, and the Bucks have lost some depth with Brogdon leaving. So several of the Pacers main competitors are in a similar situation. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

 

Again, I LOVE Brogdon's game, attitude, everything he brings, but can Brogdon be the second best player on a Finals team? Similar to the Celtics where I love Kemba, is Vic good enough to be the best player on a Finals team in a league where you almost have to have a Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, Curry, Kobe, Garnett, Duncan, etc. to get there?

If Kawhi goes to the Lakers, I think the answer is yes for the Pacers, especially in 2020-21. If Kawhi stays in Toronto I think the answer is probably no for both the Celtics and the Pacers. Again, both top 3-5 teams in the East, but I don't see a Finals appearance as currently constituted. 

Definitely good questions. I think the answer on Vic is yes, if the team is otherwise balanced with another high level scorer (which remains to be seen). Vic really did take the P's past LeBron's Cavs in that 7-game series, they kind of got hosed on the no-call etc. Regardless, Vic is a clear top 20 player when healthy, pushing top 15. I don't think you have to have a Kawhi to win it all (sure makes it easier), think those Pistons' teams with Billups. The Pacers have the chance to be one of the best balanced teams on both sides of the ball. What I don't know is whether Brog can step it up, at least at this point in his young career, to be a key scorer on a team trying to get to the Finals. There are other questions with the P's, the ongoing Turner-Sabonis debate, but I do think they are getting close.

I'll be really disappointed if Kawhi goes to the Lakers -- and why would he? He's already proved that he is, minimally, in the discussion for best player in the League, and realistically he's now passed LeBron. He just won a championship. Why would he join LBJ? Maybe he joins the Clips, to go home to LA, maybe he disappoints (really, everyone outside of Lakers fans) and joins LeBron, but I think he's staying put. We'll see.

[BGleas]

Let's have a little fun with Kawhi...Rank the order of where you'd like to see him end up between the Raptors, Lakers and Clippers.

I'd go:

1) Raptors - Seems odd since I'm a Celtics fans, and as much as I'd like to see the Celtics in the Finals and the Lakers not make the Finals and flame out, it would be great theatre IMO to see Kawhi and LeBron go head-to-head in the Finals for a 3rd time. They've each won once, so let's split the tie. How amazing if Kawhi got his 3rd title to match LeBron and his 3rd Finals MVP in a head-to-head series? What would that do to Kawhi and James historically? Again, it would be great theatre.

2) Clippers - It's not the Lakers and I'm a Doc Rivers fan. Would be fun to see little brother be able to compete with the Lakers.

3) Lakers - Again, as a Celtics fan I would hate this. I understand the climate we're in where these guys are ultimately judged by titles, so building super teams is the easiest way to accomplish that. I get it. But, I also think it's one thing to build a 'super team', but it's a whole other thing to literally get 3 of the top 5 players in the league on one team. I think that's pretty weak. The only upside IMO is that it would give the league/fans a true team to hate, and the league typically seems to thrive when there's a real villain.

What say you? 

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

Let's have a little fun with Kawhi...Rank the order of where you'd like to see him end up between the Raptors, Lakers and Clippers.

I'd go:

1) Raptors - Seems odd since I'm a Celtics fans, and as much as I'd like to see the Celtics in the Finals and the Lakers not make the Finals and flame out, it would be great theatre IMO to see Kawhi and LeBron go head-to-head in the Finals for a 3rd time. They've each won once, so let's split the tie. How amazing if Kawhi got his 3rd title to match LeBron and his 3rd Finals MVP in a head-to-head series? What would that do to Kawhi and James historically? Again, it would be great theatre.

2) Clippers - It's not the Lakers and I'm a Doc Rivers fan. Would be fun to see little brother be able to compete with the Lakers.

3) Lakers - Again, as a Celtics fan I would hate this. I understand the climate we're in where these guys are ultimately judged by titles, so building super teams is the easiest way to accomplish that. I get it. But, I also think it's one thing to build a 'super team', but it's a whole other thing to literally get 3 of the top 5 players in the league on one team. I think that's pretty weak. The only upside IMO is that it would give the league/fans a true team to hate, and the league typically seems to thrive when there's a real villain.

What say you? 

As a pure basketball fan

1) Raptors

2) Clippers

3) Lakers

As a Pacers fan- get him out of the East

1) Clippers

2) Lakers

3) Raptors

[BGleas]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Definitely good questions. I think the answer on Vic is yes, if the team is otherwise balanced with another high level scorer (which remains to be seen). Vic really did take the P's past LeBron's Cavs in that 7-game series, they kind of got hosed on the no-call etc. Regardless, Vic is a clear top 20 player when healthy, pushing top 15. I don't think you have to have a Kawhi to win it all (sure makes it easier), think those Pistons' teams with Billups. The Pacers have the chance to be one of the best balanced teams on both sides of the ball. What I don't know is whether Brog can step it up, at least at this point in his young career, to be a key scorer on a team trying to get to the Finals. There are other questions with the P's, the ongoing Turner-Sabonis debate, but I do think they are getting close.

I'll be really disappointed if Kawhi goes to the Lakers -- and why would he? He's already proved that he is, minimally, in the discussion for best player in the League, and realistically he's now passed LeBron. He just won a championship. Why would he join LBJ? Maybe he joins the Clips, to go home to LA, maybe he disappoints (really, everyone outside of Lakers fans) and joins LeBron, but I think he's staying put. We'll see.

I really do love what the Pacers have done. Brogdon is a player anyone would want on their team, Sabonis is a promising young player, TJ Warren is a legit role player/dirty work guy on a competing team, and what's not to love about Vic? It's been amazing and fun to watch him transform from a 3rd/4th guy, Eric Gordon sort of level player, to a legit all-star. 

I think the Pacers have set themselves up really nice to compete now and be in a position to make a big trade if necessary at some point for a second star. I agree they may be one of the most balanced teams in the league, certainly in the East. But yes, I think the question remains on whether they have enough high level talent to be a true Finals/championship contender. The Pistons example is a really good one, but the reality also is that those examples are very few and far between. 

The last team to even make the Finals without an all-time historical player is probably the Magic in 2009, though you could argue at that point Dwight Howard was at that level. Then you have to go back to that 03-04 Pistons teams. That's just to make the Finals, not even win it. Again not impossible, but not the norm either.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I hope Vic comes back 100%, and again I think the Pacers are positioned as well as anyone in the East, especially for the 2020-21 season. They can keep developing everyone or they have some assets (Sabonis, Turner, Holiday, even Brogdon and picks) to flip guys for a second star in a year or two.  

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

I really do love what the Pacers have done. Brogdon is a player anyone would want on their team, Sabonis is a promising young player, TJ Warren is a legit role player/dirty work guy on a competing team, and what's not to love about Vic? It's been amazing and fun to watch him transform from a 3rd/4th guy, Eric Gordon sort of level player, to a legit all-star. 

I think the Pacers have set themselves up really nice to compete now and be in a position to make a big trade if necessary at some point for a second star. I agree they may be one of the most balanced teams in the league, certainly in the East. But yes, I think the question remains on whether they have enough high level talent to be a true Finals/championship contender. The Pistons example is a really good one, but the reality also is that those examples are very few and far between. 

The last team to even make the Finals without an all-time historical player is probably the Magic in 2009, though you could argue at that point Dwight Howard was at that level. Then you have to go back to that 03-04 Pistons teams. That's just to make the Finals, not even win it. Again not impossible, but not the norm either.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I hope Vic comes back 100%, and again I think the Pacers are positioned as well as anyone in the East, especially for the 2020-21 season. They can keep developing everyone or they have some assets (Sabonis, Turner, Holiday, even Brogdon and picks) to flip guys for a second star in a year or two.  

To me for the Pacers to be contenders they have to be able to get a player who is better than VO.  To me VO could be the second guy on a championship team but not the main guy but that will be hard to do.  Also Brogdon would be a great 3rd or 4th option on a great team with Turner or Sabonis in there as well.

[Hoosierhoopster]

52 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Let's have a little fun with Kawhi...Rank the order of where you'd like to see him end up between the Raptors, Lakers and Clippers.

I'd go:

1) Raptors - Seems odd since I'm a Celtics fans, and as much as I'd like to see the Celtics in the Finals and the Lakers not make the Finals and flame out, it would be great theatre IMO to see Kawhi and LeBron go head-to-head in the Finals for a 3rd time. They've each won once, so let's split the tie. How amazing if Kawhi got his 3rd title to match LeBron and his 3rd Finals MVP in a head-to-head series? What would that do to Kawhi and James historically? Again, it would be great theatre.

2) Clippers - It's not the Lakers and I'm a Doc Rivers fan. Would be fun to see little brother be able to compete with the Lakers.

3) Lakers - Again, as a Celtics fan I would hate this. I understand the climate we're in where these guys are ultimately judged by titles, so building super teams is the easiest way to accomplish that. I get it. But, I also think it's one thing to build a 'super team', but it's a whole other thing to literally get 3 of the top 5 players in the league on one team. I think that's pretty weak. The only upside IMO is that it would give the league/fans a true team to hate, and the league typically seems to thrive when there's a real villain.

What say you? 

1) Raps

2) Clips

3) Every other team in the NBA not the Lakers

4) Lakers

[BGleas]

55 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me for the Pacers to be contenders they have to be able to get a player who is better than VO.  To me VO could be the second guy on a championship team but not the main guy but that will be hard to do.  Also Brogdon would be a great 3rd or 4th option on a great team with Turner or Sabonis in there as well.

This is kind of where I'm at too, and that's not a knock on the Pacers or VO whatsoever. I love Vic and am so impressed with how he's developed. But as HH said, the 03-04 Pistons are the last team to win a title without having an all-time, historically great player on their team, and before that I can't even remember one? I'm a big Vic fan, but he's not on that level. He's not in the Kawhi, LeBron, Durant, Curry conversation. In thinking of guys that were the 2nd star on championship teams, he's more in the Klay, Lowery (he's better than that), Kyrie (not as a player, but as a 2nd guy on a title team), etc. level. 

Just to reiterate that this isn't an anti-Pacers point of view, I'm saying the same thing about the current Celtics. Kemba isn't the lead guy on a title team most likely. As presently constituted, the Celtics need Tatum to develop into a top 10ish type guy to win a title. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by BGleas

[NotIThatLives]

3 hours ago, BGleas said:

next NBA season has a chance to be one of the most wide-open in a long, long time, maybe ever. 

In the East you'd have the Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pacers and Celtics all with varying chances, and in the West you'd have the Nuggets, Jazz, Lakers, Warriors, Thunder, etc., all with varying chances. It would be such an exciting season with so many viable teams with chances to make noise. 

And the jump said as of now Houston still has the best starting 5.  

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, NotIThatLives said:

And the jump said as of now Houston still has the best starting 5.  

I knew I was forgetting a team. Houston will absolutely be in the mix, especially if Kawhi doesn't go to the Lakers. I was wracking my brain for who I was forgetting out West. Very underrated move by the Rockets to keep Austin Rivers. Tough job, but if they can get Harden and CP3 to play nice, they're still a contender. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, BGleas said:

In the East you'd have the Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pacers and Celtics all with varying chances, and in the West you'd have the Nuggets, Jazz, Lakers, Warriors, Thunder, etc., all with varying chances. It would be such an exciting season with so many viable teams with chances to make noise. 

I'm very interested to see what the Thunder look like next season, interesting that their only move so far that I've seen anyway is to add Burks, kind of an odd acquisition.

PG is coming off surgery to both shoulders after having his MVP-contention run end with another shoulder injury right before the playoffs, leaving him unable to lift his arm just days before the playoffs. He should be good to go fairly early into the season.

Roberson missed all of last season. That's a big time loss to the Thunder, probably the second best wing defender behind Kawhi. Unclear if he'll be back and at 100%, or how he'll bounce back from a lost season, but he's primarily a defender not a scorer, so I'm thinking that assuming he is back, the Thunder will be better for it. Jerami Grant is a player, still improving. But odd that there has been talk of Adams possibly being on the market. I'm not sure I buy into it, he's a key piece/member of that team. They still need more outside shooting to compliment PG though, and they're still struggling with the salary cap. Still, would be surprised to see them stand pat, have to think they'll try to bring in more shooting.

[btownqb]

2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

hopefully they can bring in a couple of more bench players because right now I don't think the bench can compete right now.

Holiday

Summner

McDermott

Leag

Goga

You're wrong there. Way wrong. 

[IU Scott]

Just now, btownqb said:

You're wrong there. Way wrong. 

If your really think those bench guys right there will help us to compete then I don't know what to tell you

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

If your really think those bench guys right there will help us to compete then I don't know what to tell you

Ok lol.. Holiday is a stud, by all reports Goga is going to come in and be very, very good. McDermott was solid in his mins last year. I don't think Leaf gets the backup 4 mins.. I think Sabonis/Turner/Warren all rotate there. Plus.. when VO comes back, Lamb will be in that group, making it even stronger. 

AH and Goga in the PNR are going to be very good. 

[BGleas]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I'm very interested to see what the Thunder look like next season, interesting that their only move so far that I've seen anyway is to add Burks, kind of an odd acquisition.

PG is coming off surgery to both shoulders after having his MVP-contention run end with another shoulder injury right before the playoffs, leaving him unable to lift his arm just days before the playoffs. He should be good to go fairly early into the season.

Roberson missed all of last season. That's a big time loss to the Thunder, probably the second best wing defender behind Kawhi. Unclear if he'll be back and at 100%, or how he'll bounce back from a lost season, but he's primarily a defender not a scorer, so I'm thinking that assuming he is back, the Thunder will be better for it. Jerami Grant is a player, still improving. But odd that there has been talk of Adams possibly being on the market. I'm not sure I buy into it, he's a key piece/member of that team. They still need more outside shooting to compliment PG though, and they're still struggling with the salary cap. Still, would be surprised to see them stand pat, have to think they'll try to bring in more shooting.

Another reason I'm hoping Kawhi doesn't pick the Lakers, because with GS seemingly taking a step back, it also vaults the Thunder back into contender status. 

If you put Kawhi on the Clippers, the West is insane!

Not in ranking order, just listing them...

Lakers

Clippers

Nuggets

Rockets

Thunder

Jazz

Blazers

Spurs

Improving Kings team

Pelicans

Mavs

That's just crazy right there. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by BGleas

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Ok lol.. Holiday is a stud, by all reports Goga is going to come in and be very, very good. McDermott was solid in his mins last year. I don't think Leaf gets the backup 4 mins.. I think Sabonis/Turner/Warren all rotate there. Plus.. when VO comes back, Lamb will be in that group, making it even stronger. 

AH and Goga in the PNR are going to be very good. 

Holiday will be a solid player but if you are thinking that Goga will come in and contribute right away I believe you will be disappointed.  Also it will be January until VO gets back so my point was that we need to get a backup to Lamb to start the season.

[BGleas]

16 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Ok lol.. Holiday is a stud, by all reports Goga is going to come in and be very, very good. McDermott was solid in his mins last year. I don't think Leaf gets the backup 4 mins.. I think Sabonis/Turner/Warren all rotate there. Plus.. when VO comes back, Lamb will be in that group, making it even stronger. 

AH and Goga in the PNR are going to be very good. 

It's not like Scott's position is crazy. Calling Holiday a stud at this point is a pretty premature, he's a second year player that showed some flashes, but is far from proven and Goga hasn't played a second in the NBA yet. McDermott is ok and Leaf is solid, yet underwhelming. Could it develop into a solid group, sure, but it's very far from a proven group and I think most would say the Pacers bench as is is a work in progress/net neutral. 

I do agree that when you push Lamb to the bench that it of course strengthens the group. 

[NotIThatLives]

14 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Holiday will be a solid player but if you are thinking that Goga will come in and contribute right away I believe you will be disappointed.  Also it will be January until VO gets back so my point was that we need to get a backup to Lamb to start the season.

I guess I'll believe the organization and the 'leaks' that no way the pacers would trade holiday unless blown away and they think he's a future all star but upon further review...

4.3.  4.3 minutes is what they played their future all star point guard in the playoffs.  A playoffs that everyone, including my mom, knew they had no chance of winning.  Who played in front of him?  2 guys on expiring contracts that they didn't even bring  back.   So no, I'm not that hopefully and really think they were just drumming up some bullcrap to see if someone would bite on a offer. 

Then what do they do.  Go and pay Brogden dang good money to play point guard.... in front of your future all star.  Nope.   Not buying it.  

[btownqb]

13 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It's not like Scott's position is crazy. Calling Holiday a stud at this point is a pretty premature, he's a second year player that showed some flashes, but is far from proven and Goga hasn't played a second in the NBA yet. McDermott is ok and Leaf is solid, yet underwhelming. Could it develop into a solid group, sure, but it's very far from a proven group and I think most would say the Pacers bench as is is a work in progress/net neutral. 

I do agree that when you push Lamb to the bench that it of course strengthens the group. 

He said the bench can't compete. Don't believe that for a second. 

[dwtaylor1055]

Remember Brogdon can play either PG or SG.  Vic/Brogdon/Holiday as your first three guards assuming Holiday continues to improve will be a very scary trio in the years to come. All three are/can be interchangeable at the point guard or shooting guard spot. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by dwtaylor1055

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

He said the bench can't compete. Don't believe that for a second. 

Well yeah, of course they can compete, but I wouldn't call the bench as is one of the better benches in the league. It's probably middle of the packish or so as it currently is. 

[IU Scott]

9 minutes ago, btownqb said:

He said the bench can't compete. Don't believe that for a second. 

In the regular season against Charlotte they can compete but not in the playoffs against the Celtics or Sixers.

[btownqb]

7 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Well yeah, of course they can compete, but I wouldn't call the bench as is one of the better benches in the league. It's probably middle of the packish or so as it currently is. 

That's fair.. and I agree with that. Lamb moves to the bench, Warren/Turner/Dom all rotate at backup 4 position.. I think it becomes a strength later on. 

[dwtaylor1055]

Currently the Pacers(Nates lets be honest here) 9 man rotation as I type this:

Guards - Brogdon, Victor, Holiday, Lamb

Forwards - Warren, McDerrmott, Sabonis, Turner, Goga or Leaf

 

Sumner, Alize, one of Leaf or Goga will not get too many meaningful minutes.  Nate likes a 9 man rotation, especially in the Playoffs.  If the Pacers do not make any other changes or experience any major injuries this season my 9 man rotation is: Starters - Brogdon/Vic/Warren/Sabonis/Turner......Bench Holiday/Lamb/McDermott/Goga