Jump to content

NBA Thread


Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, btownqb said:

They earned the right to play. Simple. 

And thats fine.  Play the guys that give you the best chance to win.  In that case, it would probably be wise to tamper expectations, at least in the short term for the kid.   He's young, he has pedigree, and now he's not pressured into something he's not ready for.  I'm hopeful he's good for 20 solid minutes this year and if God forbid Brogdon goes down with injury then he's going to be greatly relied upon.   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

And thats fine.  Play the guys that give you the best chance to win.  In that case, it would probably be wise to tamper expectations, at least in the short term for the kid.   He's young, he has pedigree, and now he's not pressured into something he's not ready for.  I'm hopeful he's good for 20 solid minutes this year and if God forbid Brogdon goes down with injury then he's going to be greatly relied upon.   

 

I have zero worry that he's ready for 20 mins

Edited by btownqb
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

Well to me it's relevant to the discussion that we're having which is the legitimacy of our bench depth.  Maybe over the long-term it's not that big of a deal but we gained nothing by given Collison and Joseph minutes over him because they're not here anymore.  

I don't follow the Pacers like everyone else here, so don't know the in's and out's the rest of you, but this is where I'm at too. I could be way off. But, once Vic went down the Pacers season was essentially over. There was no chance of a playoff run, best hope was win a game or two in the first round most likely. So you have a rookie pg that everyone here and the Pacers seems really high on. 

So IMO you take a couple veterans on expiring deals (Collison and Joseph) and look to flip them to playoff teams. Even if you just get second round picks, there's value there. I don't know if there was any market for those guys, maybe the Pacers tried and there were no takers, but even if you trade both for a second round pick each, now you have 3 second round picks. There's always teams in the mid-to-back of the first round looking to trade out. So you trade 2 second rounders for another first.

Now you have 2 first round picks and you can potentially package them to move up in the 2019 draft or maybe flip one to a team looking to get back into the first for a future first. Then you'd have more picks down the line when you might look to flip Sabonis or Turner, etc. Unless you're championship or bust, it's a game of acquiring assets and flexibility while you build. 

Maybe I'm completely wrong here, I think the philosophy is right but like I said I don't follow the Pacers like you guys so high chance I'm missing something or misreading the roster, etc. 

Edited by BGleas
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don't follow the Pacers like everyone else here, so don't know the in's and out's the rest of you, but this is where I'm at too. I could be way off. But, once Vic went down the Pacers season was essentially over. There was no chance of a playoff run, best hope was win a game or two in the first round most likely. So you have a rookie pg that everyone here and the Pacers seems really high on. 

So IMO you take a couple veterans on expiring deals (Collison and Joseph) and look to flip them to playoff teams. Even if you just get second round picks, there's value there. I don't know if there was any market for those guys, maybe the Pacers tried and there were no takers, but even if you trade both for a second round pick each, now you have 3 second round picks. There's always teams in the mid-to-back of the first round looking to trade out. So you trade 2 second rounders for another first.

Now you have 2 first round picks and you can potentially package them to move up in the 2019 draft or maybe flip one to a team looking to get back into the first for a future first. Then you'd have more picks down the line when you might look to flip Sabonis or Turner, etc. Unless you're championship or bust, it's a game of acquiring assets and flexibility while you build. 

Maybe I'm completely wrong here, I think the philosophy is right but like I said I don't follow the Pacers like you guys so high chance I'm missing something or misreading the roster, etc. 

I would agree with you if we was battling for the 7th or 8th spot but at the time of the trade deadline we were playing really well and was 3rd in the East.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

I would agree with you if we was battling for the 7th or 8th spot but at the time of the trade deadline we were playing really well and was 3rd in the East.

It doesn't matter. Without VO the Pacers weren't doing anything in the playoffs, evidenced by getting swept by a highly dysfunctional Celtics teams. You do a little mini retool that season to set yourself up for a better future once VO is back and healthy. Instead they lost those guys for nothing. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I would agree with you if we was battling for the 7th or 8th spot but at the time of the trade deadline we were playing really well and was 3rd in the East.

Did you seriously at that point think the pacers could play with the bucks, raptors, Sixers?  The season was over.  Time to play for future.   Not tank.  I'm not saying tank.  You still get your 1st round playoff loss but at least you have something to show for it in the future.  

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It doesn't matter. Without VO the Pacers weren't doing anything in the playoffs, evidenced by getting swept by a highly dysfunctional Celtics teams. You do a little mini retool that season to set yourself up for a better future once VO is back and healthy. Instead they lost those guys for nothing. 

Yes it does matter because if they finished 3rd they would had a good chance of winning their first round matchup

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Did you seriously at that point think the pacers could play with the bucks, raptors, Sixers?  The season was over.  Time to play for future.   Not tank.  I'm not saying tank.  You still get your 1st round playoff loss but at least you have something to show for it in the future.  

No it was not over at that time because the first month or so after the injury we were still winning a good clip and was in 3rd.  Like I just said in another post if we finished 3rd we would had a great chance of winning the first round matchup.  None of the players we could have traded would have gotten a 1st round pick so I am not worrying about losing a couple of 2nd round picks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Yes it does matter because if they finished 3rd they would had a good chance of winning their first round matchup

But the chances of remaining 3rd weren't great without VO. Even if so, again the Celtics were a mess and they swept the Pacers. I don't think it would have been a guarantee that they would have beaten the Nets without VO. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, IU Scott said:

No it was not over at that time because the first month or so after the injury we were still winning a good clip and was in 3rd.  Like I just said in another post if we finished 3rd we would had a great chance of winning the first round matchup.  None of the players we could have traded would have gotten a 1st round pick so I am not worrying about losing a couple of 2nd round picks.

Reduntant conversation with the same person who hasn't changed their mind about anything in 30+ years.  You win.  I'm out.  

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

No it was not over at that time because the first month or so after the injury we were still winning a good clip and was in 3rd.  Like I just said in another post if we finished 3rd we would had a great chance of winning the first round matchup.  None of the players we could have traded would have gotten a 1st round pick so I am not worrying about losing a couple of 2nd round picks.

So you'd rather get swept in the first round of a lost season with Collison and Joseph gobbling up minutes from a rookie point guard with promise, before they walk out the door, as opposed to acquiring assets for those players and getting experience for Holiday? I know you like to downplay assets, but two second round picks can absolutely be leveraged into more/better assets down the line. 

As I noted earlier, you can package second round picks to move back into the first round. Now you have two first round picks and you can potentially move up into the lottery, or flip one of those first for a future first to use as an asset at a later time. You've been advocating for trading either Turner or Sabonis, well if you want to get some legit players or a star for them you'll need first round picks to help facilitate, and unless you want to be left with no picks it's good to acquire additional firsts to help. 

Again, potentially all that could have been had for flipping Collison and Joseph in a lost season. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

So you'd rather get swept in the first round of a lost season with Collison and Joseph gobbling up minutes from a rookie point guard with promise, before they walk out the door, as opposed to acquiring assets for those players and getting experience for Holiday? I know you like to downplay assets, but two second round picks can absolutely be leveraged into more/better assets down the line. 

As I noted earlier, you can package second round picks to move back into the first round. Now you have two first round picks and you can potentially move up into the lottery, or flip one of those first for a future first to use as an asset at a later time. You've been advocating for trading either Turner or Sabonis, well if you want to get some legit players or a star for them you'll need first round picks to help facilitate, and unless you want to be left with no picks it's good to acquire additional firsts to help. 

Again, potentially all that could have been had for flipping Collison and Joseph in a lost season. 

I guess we just will disagree on this one.  Also you can move up far enough in the first round with second round picks to get a quality pick.  to me anything after the top 12-15 those picks are just not worth trading up for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, BGleas said:

So you'd rather get swept in the first round of a lost season with Collison and Joseph gobbling up minutes from a rookie point guard with promise, before they walk out the door, as opposed to acquiring assets for those players and getting experience for Holiday? I know you like to downplay assets, but two second round picks can absolutely be leveraged into more/better assets down the line. 

As I noted earlier, you can package second round picks to move back into the first round. Now you have two first round picks and you can potentially move up into the lottery, or flip one of those first for a future first to use as an asset at a later time. You've been advocating for trading either Turner or Sabonis, well if you want to get some legit players or a star for them you'll need first round picks to help facilitate, and unless you want to be left with no picks it's good to acquire additional firsts to help. 

Again, potentially all that could have been had for flipping Collison and Joseph in a lost season. 

Commenting on the experience only.. that's being blown way out of proportion. No one was going to trade for Joseph either. This whole thing is getting way out of control. It's really not that big of a deal the way the Pacers played it. We really didn't lose out on much at all. 

Edited by btownqb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I guess we just will disagree on this one.  Also you can move up far enough in the first round with second round picks to get a quality pick.  to me anything after the top 12-15 those picks are just not worth trading up for.

It's just funny, you're the one always complaining about being a small market team and not being able to get a star. Well outside of getting lucky in the lottery or being in LA/NY, the way you get a star is by developing young players (Sabonis and Holiday) and stockpiling assets such as first round picks. Whether you want to believe it or not, first round picks are like gold in these big deals for stars and are constantly used as sweeteners in deals when you need to move a bad contract, etc.

If the Pacers had acquired a second first round pick, even if it was #23 or something, they could have flipped 18 & 23 for something in the lottery potentially or they could have essentially sold off either 18 or 23 for a future first (tradeable asset). 

It's a game of acquiring assets and flexibility. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Commenting on the experience only.. that's being blown way out of proportion. No one was going to trade for Joseph either. This whole thing is getting way out of control. It's really not that big of a deal the way the Pacers played it. We really didn't lose out on much at all. 

totally correct on Joeseph since he shot 28% from the field and 20% from 3 in March

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Commenting on the experience only.. that's being blown way out of proportion. No one was going to trade for Joseph either. This whole thing is getting way out of control. It's really not that big of a deal the way the Pacers played it. We really didn't lose out on much at all. 

It's not really about what they lost, it's about what they didn't gain. Like I said, I have no idea what the market was like for those guys, but I do know that Collison is a solid player and Joseph, while not the best backup pg in the world, has plenty of playoff experience. It would have been worth it to flip them even if just for second round picks. 

I'm assuming there might have been a market for them, maybe not. I'd guess someone would have taken Collison. The Sixers could have certainly used him last year. I don't know their picks situation, but I'm guess Brand would have given up a 2nd rounder for him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It's just funny, you're the one always complaining about being a small market team and not being able to get a star. Well outside of getting lucky in the lottery or being in LA/NY, the way you get a star is by developing young players (Sabonis and Holiday) and stockpiling assets such as first round picks. Whether you want to believe it or not, first round picks are like gold in these big deals for stars and are constantly used as sweeteners in deals when you need to move a bad contract, etc.

If the Pacers had acquired a second first round pick, even if it was #23 or something, they could have flipped 18 & 23 for something in the lottery potentially or they could have essentially sold off either 18 or 23 for a future first (tradeable asset). 

It's a game of acquiring assets and flexibility. 

We did just that to get Brogdon. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

It's just funny, you're the one always complaining about being a small market team and not being able to get a star. Well outside of getting lucky in the lottery or being in LA/NY, the way you get a star is by developing young players (Sabonis and Holiday) and stockpiling assets such as first round picks. Whether you want to believe it or not, first round picks are like gold in these big deals for stars and are constantly used as sweeteners in deals when you need to move a bad contract, etc.

If the Pacers had acquired a second first round pick, even if it was #23 or something, they could have flipped 18 & 23 for something in the lottery potentially or they could have essentially sold off either 18 or 23 for a future first (tradeable asset). 

It's a game of acquiring assets and flexibility. 

I get that but none of the players you mentioned would have gotten us 1st round picks.  Also if you have two second round picks you won't move up to the top 15 in the draft with 2nd round picks.  Also teams that you could get high draft picks was not going to take on these players so you would be getting low picks from title contenders for those players.  You can make a major move up in the draft if you were like Atlanta this year when you had 8, 10 and 17 in the first round but you are not able to move up where the Pacers are picking usually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, BGleas said:

It's not really about what they lost, it's about what they didn't gain. Like I said, I have no idea what the market was like for those guys, but I do know that Collison is a solid player and Joseph, while not the best backup pg in the world, has plenty of playoff experience. It would have been worth it to flip them even if just for second round picks. 

I'm assuming there might have been a market for them, maybe not. I'd guess someone would have taken Collison. The Sixers could have certainly used him last year. I don't know their picks situation, but I'm guess Brand would have given up a 2nd rounder for him. 

One 2nd rd pick to show loyalty to DC. I'm good with that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I get that but none of the players you mentioned would have gotten us 1st round picks.  Also if you have two second round picks you won't move up to the top 15 in the draft with 2nd round picks.  Also teams that you could get high draft picks was not going to take on these players so you would be getting low picks from title contenders for those players.  You can make a major move up in the draft if you were like Atlanta this year when you had 8, 10 and 17 in the first round but you are not able to move up where the Pacers are picking usually.

You're not getting it though. You don't have to acquire lottery picks to get done what I'm talking about, and you have no clue if either of those guys would have fetched a second round pick. Darren Collison would have absolutely gotten the Pacers a second round pick, maybe even a late first. 

It's not always about moving up into the lottery. Just having a bevy of future 1st round picks is worth is, regardless of where they're positioned. There are always teams looking to move out of the lottery or out of the first round all together for salary cap reasons. When you're the team with all the picks to move in those deals, you then have leverage and flexibility. 

Like Btown said, then you can throw a 1st round pick into the Brogdon deal while still maintaining your own pick. Or, you can stockpile picks to pair with your young guys for a trade for a star down the line. Most teams attempt to do this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...