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7 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

I think the Kings would be opposed to the Pacers doing that. 

The Pacers are 3 deep at the point with Brogdon, Holiday and McConnell who played really well in the pre season.

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21 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I wouldn't because I want the guy who can shoot from deep and move with out the ball.

Troy was shooting well fwiw, and moving without the ball, and McD can't defend my deceased grandmother.

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12 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Troy was shooting well fwiw, and moving without the ball, and McD can't defend my deceased grandmother.

In his defense, she does have a wicked crossover. 

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17 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The Pacers are 3 deep at the point with Brogdon, Holiday and McConnell who played really well in the pre season.

You're missing the point here...hell, make Troy a 2-way player and use him to fill in for injuries, etc.  We're not talking starters here...not at least initially.  We're talking about players who have potential but are struggling to stay in the league like Troy is.  Granted, Yogi doesn't fit that description as of this time, but he might be like Vic was...misused and underutilized and at some point, available for the right price to fill a need.  The Pacers lose players all the time to better salary offers.  This kind of player can backfill a need when players are traded or have injuries, with the possibility of them growing into greater roles even if they are not competing for a starting job today.

Just so I'm clear...I'm thinking two very different scenarios for a player like Troy vs. a player like Yogi.  Yogi is more of a pipe dream/future possibility if there is possible need at the position.  Troy would likely take a 2-way deal for the minimum to get a chance and would be a very low-risk/high potential move.  Troy is a now suggestion and Yogi is a maybe later.

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9 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

You're missing the point here...hell, make Troy a 2-way player and use him to fill in for injuries, etc.  We're not talking starters here...not at least initially.  We're talking about players who have potential but are struggling to stay in the league like Troy is.  Granted, Yogi doesn't fit that description as of this time, but he might be like Vic was...misused and underutilized and at some point, available for the right price to fill a need.  The Pacers lose players all the time to better salary offers.  This kind of player can backfill a need when players are traded or have injuries, with the possibility of them growing into greater roles even if they are not competing for a starting job today.

Just so I'm clear...I'm thinking two very different scenarios for a player like Troy vs. a player like Yogi.  Yogi is more of a pipe dream/future possibility if there is possible need at the position.  Troy would likely take a 2-way deal for the minimum to get a chance and would be a very low-risk/high potential move.  Troy is a now suggestion and Yogi is a maybe later.

As a pacers fan I want who will make the team the best and don't care where the players come from.  Just because they went to IU does nothing for me when it comes to the Pacers roster and I just don't think either one would make the Pacers better than they already are.  thank goodness Donnie Walsh did not listen to IU fans who wanted Alford to be picked instead of Reggie.

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Guess these guys aren't getting traded for each other. I wasn't hoping they would, but it was one of the options when it seemed Sabonis was upset. 

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40 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

As a pacers fan I want who will make the team the best and don't care where the players come from.  Just because they went to IU does nothing for me when it comes to the Pacers roster and I just don't think either one would make the Pacers better than they already are.  thank goodness Donnie Walsh did not listen to IU fans who wanted Alford to be picked instead of Reggie.

Troy's been playing really well, that's the point guys are making. He just doesn't seem to be able to find a team where he can stick, which is somewhat head-scratching considering how well he's played.

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1 minute ago, BGleas said:

 

Guess these guys aren't getting traded for each other. I wasn't hoping they would, but it was one of the options when it seemed Sabonis was upset. 

Good result for Sabonis, and shows his comments about what the P's thoughts were on him were off. Also a good move, imo, for the P's. 

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12 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Good result for Sabonis, and shows his comments about what the P's thoughts were on him were off. Also a good move, imo, for the P's. 

That is very good for both and I am happy we were able to sign Sabonis instead of trading him.

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

As a pacers fan I want who will make the team the best and don't care where the players come from.  Just because they went to IU does nothing for me when it comes to the Pacers roster and I just don't think either one would make the Pacers better than they already are.  thank goodness Donnie Walsh did not listen to IU fans who wanted Alford to be picked instead of Reggie.

Again, you are missing the point.  I made it clear that we are not talking about drafting Alford instead of Reggie Miller.  We are talking about players like Troy Williams who are at the margins of making it in the NBA.  These are cheap players who may do better playing for the Pacers than they would in markets where no one cares who they are, but at any rate, they are cheap, low-risk players who have a tie to a substantial part of the fanbase.  Worse-case scenario, they flame out like a typical 2-way investment, costing the Pacers relatively little cash.  Best-case, you have players that are well-known by a substantial part of the Pacer fanbase and they actually contribute for a relatively cheap contract.  Best-best-case, they flourish and become real contributors making everyone happy.

I'm pretty happy with the trade that brought former IU star Victor Oladipo to the Pacers, not to mention Sabonis..aren't you?  Not only has Vic flourished...he's a beloved fan-favorite in Indy.

...and before you go down this rabbit hole, I. AM. NOT. SAYING. THAT. TROY. WILLIAMS. WILL. BE. ANOTHER. VICTOR. OLADIPO.  He doesn't have to be anything remotely close to that to be a bargain for no more than he'll cost at this point.

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37 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Again, you are missing the point.  I made it clear that we are not talking about drafting Alford instead of Reggie Miller.  We are talking about players like Troy Williams who are at the margins of making it in the NBA.  These are cheap players who may do better playing for the Pacers than they would in markets where no one cares who they are, but at any rate, they are cheap, low-risk players who have a tie to a substantial part of the fanbase.  Worse-case scenario, they flame out like a typical 2-way investment, costing the Pacers relatively little cash.  Best-case, you have players that are well-known by a substantial part of the Pacer fanbase and they actually contribute for a relatively cheap contract.  Best-best-case, they flourish and become real contributors making everyone happy.

I'm pretty happy with the trade that brought former IU star Victor Oladipo to the Pacers, not to mention Sabonis..aren't you?  Not only has Vic flourished...he's a beloved fan-favorite in Indy.

...and before you go down this rabbit hole, I. AM. NOT. SAYING. THAT. TROY. WILLIAMS. WILL. BE. ANOTHER. VICTOR. OLADIPO.  He doesn't have to be anything remotely close to that to be a bargain for no more than he'll cost at this point.

Both of those were top 10 picks who showed great potential.  I am just saying the Pacers have better players in the spots they would take so why would I want them over what we already have.

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Both of those were top 10 picks who showed great potential.  I am just saying the Pacers have better players in the spots they would take so why would I want them over what we already have.

They have better players NOW...maybe not later though.  With the G-league, I think you can have both.  If the Pacers can get a Troy Williams for cheap and have the flexibility to move him between the G-league and the NBA as needed, I think you can give him a chance.  What happens if Troy routinely looks better than Doug McDermott at a third of the money?  Even if this scenario is considered unlikely, I like inexpensive backup plans.  This one doesn't mean that the Pacers have to give up a better player.

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4 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Troy's been playing really well, that's the point guys are making. He just doesn't seem to be able to find a team where he can stick, which is somewhat head-scratching considering how well he's played.

I don't know much about Troy other than his time here at IU. Which was big highs and crazy lows imo. Very inconsistent....too many turnovers (but who did value the ball on Crean's teams)...kind of a streaky player. Is it a locker room fit or practice effort or something?? I mean how he didn't stick with Houston who was filling their roster with vet min. contracts and needed young bodies is beyond me. Maybe somebody knows a specific reason because he has talent there..just needs some development imo.

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5 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Good result for Sabonis, and shows his comments about what the P's thoughts were on him were off. Also a good move, imo, for the P's. 

Yep...all weekend the sky was falling when talking to Pacer fans...and come to find out they were much closer than people thought. Pacers didn't want to go more than Turners contract...Sabonis I think wanted 4/80...ended up meeting in the middle. It's a good contract...and very tradable if need be that the two can't work out starting together because I don't think you want a 19 million a year guy coming off the bench.

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Wasn't sure where to put this, but curious about all the calls last winter/spring for Zion to 'shut it down' during the college season to protect his investment and avoid injury, yet Tua (Alabama QB) had ankle surgery between the SEC Championship Game and the playoffs last season and now just had another ankle surgery midseason, yet nobody in college football is screaming that he should sit out the rest of the season and not come back?

Sorry, this might not make sense here, but I kind of view it as a professional sports question, even though it's about college guys. 

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11 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Wasn't sure where to put this, but curious about all the calls last winter/spring for Zion to 'shut it down' during the college season to protect his investment and avoid injury, yet Tua (Alabama QB) had ankle surgery between the SEC Championship Game and the playoffs last season and now just had another ankle surgery midseason, yet nobody in college football is screaming that he should sit out the rest of the season and not come back?

Sorry, this might not make sense here, but I kind of view it as a professional sports question, even though it's about college guys. 

There are some football players who do sit out a bowl game so they can get ready for the draft.

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1 hour ago, Billingsley99 said:

Zion out 6 to 8 weeks following knee surgery 

He is too heavy/big to be putting that type of torque and movement on those knees. He needs to slim down. Bad thing is he will be out of shape even more coming back from surgery. They should sit him as long as it takes and then get low impact cardio/diet to get about 20-25 lbs off the kid first.

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Wasn't sure where to put this, but curious about all the calls last winter/spring for Zion to 'shut it down' during the college season to protect his investment and avoid injury, yet Tua (Alabama QB) had ankle surgery between the SEC Championship Game and the playoffs last season and now just had another ankle surgery midseason, yet nobody in college football is screaming that he should sit out the rest of the season and not come back?

Sorry, this might not make sense here, but I kind of view it as a professional sports question, even though it's about college guys. 

Nick Saban is famous for ending careers. He pushes kids to get on the field or they will lose their spot and then they all go into the combine with injuries that need surgery etc and hurt their professional career. I would not play for him. He only cares about himself. Tua likely should shut it down (if doctors think) he has a pro career to think about.

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Wasn't sure where to put this, but curious about all the calls last winter/spring for Zion to 'shut it down' during the college season to protect his investment and avoid injury, yet Tua (Alabama QB) had ankle surgery between the SEC Championship Game and the playoffs last season and now just had another ankle surgery midseason, yet nobody in college football is screaming that he should sit out the rest of the season and not come back?

Sorry, this might not make sense here, but I kind of view it as a professional sports question, even though it's about college guys. 

Yeah I think it's the difference between football -- the expectation that you play injured, which applies both in college and the pros -- and basketball -- which is much better about protecting the player. 

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39 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Yeah I think it's the difference between football -- the expectation that you play injured, which applies both in college and the pros -- and basketball -- which is much better about protecting the player. 

Agree. I just find the difference in media outcry funny and hypocritical. I mean last year the media was going crazy about Zion playing and calling out the NCAA, Duke, etc. for taking advantage of college kids, using them to make millions and billions and far worse undertones.

Now with football it's 'hurry up and get back QB #1, Bama needs to win another title'.  

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Agree. I just find the difference in media outcry funny and hypocritical. I mean last year the media was going crazy about Zion playing and calling out the NCAA, Duke, etc. for taking advantage of college kids, using them to make millions and billions and far worse undertones.

Now with football it's 'hurry up and get back QB #1, Bama needs to win another title'.  

Yet another example of selective outrage by ESPN.

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3 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Yeah I think it's the difference between football -- the expectation that you play injured, which applies both in college and the pros -- and basketball -- which is much better about protecting the player. 

Which is why I thought Andrew Luck got off pretty easy in the media. Not that he doesn't have the right obviously to decide but in the NFL you play hurt. Everyone is hurt...nobody is just 100% healthy. Football you are banged up and bruised and sore from day 1 to the end. It's expected. It just isn't the same in basketball/nba. Maybe it's the guaranteed contracts...or maybe it's just the culture but there definitely is a double standard between the two.

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1 minute ago, dgambill said:

Which is why I thought Andrew Luck got off pretty easy in the media. Not that he doesn't have the right obviously to decide but in the NFL you play hurt. Everyone is hurt...nobody is just 100% healthy. Football you are banged up and bruised and sore from day 1 to the end. It's expected. It just isn't the same in basketball/nba. Maybe it's the guaranteed contracts...or maybe it's just the culture but there definitely is a double standard between the two.

But you'd think there would be even more of an outcry for college players that are guaranteed to go high in the NFL draft to shut it down, as opposed to what we're seeing in basketball. While football gets mentioned, everything around paying players and players shutting down in college seems to be centered on basketball, when football brings in the most money and carries the most risk. 

I get that it's easier to project talent in basketball and maybe it's the guaranteed contract aspect, but again we're talking about the top 1% in both sports. There's a far greater chance of Tua getting hurt in football and never getting paid than there was for Zion in basketball. There was even talk of Langford shutting it down last year, you'd never hear that about a mid first-round pick in football, except for bowl season. 

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40 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Which is why I thought Andrew Luck got off pretty easy in the media. Not that he doesn't have the right obviously to decide but in the NFL you play hurt. Everyone is hurt...nobody is just 100% healthy. Football you are banged up and bruised and sore from day 1 to the end. It's expected. It just isn't the same in basketball/nba. Maybe it's the guaranteed contracts...or maybe it's just the culture but there definitely is a double standard between the two.

Yeah I'd say football is a true contact sport (obviously), and bball is not. Just apples and oranges. I grew up playing hockey, I laugh at bball players flopping and exaggerating injury, but it's not like it's hockey, lol.

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On 10/21/2019 at 4:49 PM, FKIM01 said:

Again, you are missing the point.  I made it clear that we are not talking about drafting Alford instead of Reggie Miller.  We are talking about players like Troy Williams who are at the margins of making it in the NBA.  These are cheap players who may do better playing for the Pacers than they would in markets where no one cares who they are, but at any rate, they are cheap, low-risk players who have a tie to a substantial part of the fanbase.  Worse-case scenario, they flame out like a typical 2-way investment, costing the Pacers relatively little cash.  Best-case, you have players that are well-known by a substantial part of the Pacer fanbase and they actually contribute for a relatively cheap contract.  Best-best-case, they flourish and become real contributors making everyone happy.

I'm pretty happy with the trade that brought former IU star Victor Oladipo to the Pacers, not to mention Sabonis..aren't you?  Not only has Vic flourished...he's a beloved fan-favorite in Indy.

 

So, are you saying that Troy Williams would have the kind of impact that Victor Oladipo did?  

Edited by 5fouls
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