NBA Thread

[Billingsley99]

19 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Currys attitude and overall smuckness and arrogance leads us to not appreciate his greatness.  He'd be just fine though.  

With that we will never know. Like we will never know which duo is best but it does make for some great needed discussion.  It's nice to discuss on a high level 

[NotIThatLives]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Wait, don't bring up last year? Why on Earth do you think that has any justification l?  Oh wait, how many game winners / end of shot clock winners did PG have last season? Oh yeah, more than anyone else in the NBA. That narrative is dead. I guess you just missed it, or prefer to ignore it to suit your narrative? 

So, over the course of a season. Please identify the Robins who were the 2nd leading scorers in the NBA, who were the NBA leaders in steals and steals per game, who were #3 in 3-pointers made, who were in the final 3 for League MVP and Defensive MVP, all in the same season? I can't wait to hear about all of these Robins. Please sign them to my team. And yes, that was over the course of a season, another dead narrative. He was, hands down, as recognized by literally everyone except you, the best player on the Thunder last year, he was carrying that team and they fell apart with his two shoulder injuries. But you can continue to pretend he's some kind of Robin, for whatever that matters, OK.

I'm far from a PG apologist.  Glad you are here to clear up things.  Lol.  Ibe been waiting for you to show up.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

Just now, NotIThatLives said:

I'm far from a PG apologist.  Glad you are here to clear up things.  Lol.  Ibe been waiting for you to show up.  

Self-recognized PG apologist here, lol. That said, this kind of narrative is about as lame duck as lame duck can be at this point.

The guy is hands down one of the best 2-way players in the game, every NBA player recognizes how good he is, Lillard tried to get him to the Blazers, Kawhi insisted on the Clippers getting him to get Kawhi to the Clippers, but guys who weren't happy with how things went down in Pacer land have to try to find reasons to marginalize his game. I guess we should all just ignore how badly Bird messed up that Roster, how literally every single player PG had played with was traded or left in disgust with Bird. Trying to marginalize PG is silly. He's one of the best players in the League. Not the best, not top 5, not better than LBJ, Kawhi, AD, and a few others, but whether you consider him top 10 (as most do now) or top 15, the "Robin" label is just silly. 

[Billingsley99]

23 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Wait, don't bring up last year? Why on Earth do you think that has any justification l?  Oh wait, how many game winners / end of shot clock winners did PG have last season? Oh yeah, more than anyone else in the NBA. That narrative is dead. I guess you just missed it, or prefer to ignore it to suit your narrative? 

So, over the course of a season. Please identify the Robins who were the 2nd leading scorers in the NBA, who were the NBA leaders in steals and steals per game, who were #3 in 3-pointers made, who were in the final 3 for League MVP and Defensive MVP, all in the same season? I can't wait to hear about all of these Robins. Please sign them to my team. And yes, that was over the course of a season, another dead narrative. He was, hands down, as recognized by literally everyone except you, the best player on the Thunder last year, he was carrying that team and they fell apart with his two shoulder injuries. But you can continue to pretend he's some kind of Robin, for whatever that matters, OK.

I dont know why you take it so personally that I call PG a Robin? He was great here in Indiana as the #1 for 47 minutes just dont ask him to hit a game winner. He PROVED he could not do it in Indiana as  THE Man ( Batman)

He has also proved that as the 2nd guy he can play at an even higher level.  When Pacers lose it  PG fault or something negative.  He did not have that pressure last year. It was Russ team. This year same situation.  It's not a knock just some people are cut out to be the President and some the VP. Does that ruffle less feathers than Robin?

[dgambill]

12 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Lol you’re either delusional or being deliberately obnoxious. Yeah, the same shrinking violet that always defends the other team’s best player, finished last year 2d in scoring, 3d in 3-pointers, 1st in steals and spy, and in the final 3 for both defensive MVP and overall MVP, what a little violet, I mean Kawhi turned down LeBron and Laker land while telling the Clippers he’d only join them if they got PG, the shrinking violet. Thanks for the laugh 

That's the regular season. In the post season the guy comes up short. Kawai is a different story but I've watched PG fail the Pacers too many times..and nothing changed in OKC. Now...in LA...he has a really good shot at winning it all. Clippers supporting cast is the deepest and most talented in the league imo and should beat teams with waves of talent in the playoffs. I just don't see PG>SP in the playoffs when it really matters. Scottie was just a devastating opponent and would take another teams star completely out of their game. I'm just not impressed with regular season numbers really. Not in the NBA. NFL where every game matters and MLB where its just a long grind and is so individual for batters but nba...nope.

Edited December 17, 2019 by dgambill

[Hoosierhoopster]

Just now, Billingsley99 said:

I dont know why you take it so personally that I call PG a Robin? He was great here in Indiana as the #1 for 47 minutes just dont ask him to hit a game winner. He PROVED he could not do it in Indiana as  THE Man ( Batman)

He has also proved that as the 2nd guy he can play at an even higher level.  When Pacers lose it  PG fault or something negative.  He did not have that pressure last year. It was Russ team. This year same situation.  It's not a knock just some people are cut out to be the President and some the VP. Does that ruffle less feathers than Robin?

I need to get back to work, but no, Bird proved that he had no clue how to construct a roster and keep players. Wake up man. You can't identify any other players as supposed "Robins" who have done all the things I just identified for you in one year, let alone over their careers. PG was the best player on the Thunder, who he was carrying toward a deep playoff run before his two shoulder surgeries, and he was the best player on the Pacers, and then Bird trashed the roster. That's the reality, man.

[Hoosierhoopster]

Just now, dgambill said:

That's the regular season. In the post season the guy comes up short. Kawai is a different story but I've watched PG fail the Pacers too many times..and nothing changed in OKC. Now...in LA...he has a really good shot at winning it all. Clippers supporting cast is the deepest and most talented in the league imo and should beat teams with waves of talent in the playoffs. I just don't see PG>SP in the playoffs when it really matters. Scottie was just a devastating opponent and would take another teams star completely out of their game. I'm just not impressed with regular season numbers really.

Actually if you look at what PG has done in the playoffs his numbers increase across the board and he's usually one of the top scorers and best defenders, in the playoffs.In the playoffs, he's outstanding. That you're saying otherwise means you're not actually following his game.

[Billingsley99]

20 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Self-recognized PG apologist here, lol. That said, this kind of narrative is about as lame duck as lame duck can be at this point.

The guy is hands down one of the best 2-way players in the game, every NBA player recognizes how good he is, Lillard tried to get him to the Blazers, Kawhi insisted on the Clippers getting him to get Kawhi to the Clippers, but guys who weren't happy with how things went down in Pacer land have to try to find reasons to marginalize his game. I guess we should all just ignore how badly Bird messed up that Roster, how literally every single player PG had played with was traded or left in disgust with Bird. Trying to marginalize PG is silly. He's one of the best players in the League. Not the best, not top 5, not better than LBJ, Kawhi, AD, and a few others, but whether you consider him top 10 (as most do now) or top 15, the "Robin" label is just silly. 

So let's throw out the first  several years of a career because it does not fit your narrative.  0 for 16 I did not make it up. He was the man in  Indy and was a very good player.  At OKC and LAC he s not the man. In turn is shining. Dont understand what is so hard to see. His best year EVER came as the second option on his team. Not a big deal. Russ and KL were  in MVP discussions last several years so what the PG is the Robin of the relationship just be happy your guy is playing at such a high level

 

[dgambill]

4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Self-recognized PG apologist here, lol. That said, this kind of narrative is about as lame duck as lame duck can be at this point.

The guy is hands down one of the best 2-way players in the game, every NBA player recognizes how good he is, Lillard tried to get him to the Blazers, Kawhi insisted on the Clippers getting him to get Kawhi to the Clippers, but guys who weren't happy with how things went down in Pacer land have to try to find reasons to marginalize his game. I guess we should all just ignore how badly Bird messed up that Roster, how literally every single player PG had played with was traded or left in disgust with Bird. Trying to marginalize PG is silly. He's one of the best players in the League. Not the best, not top 5, not better than LBJ, Kawhi, AD, and a few others, but whether you consider him top 10 (as most do now) or top 15, the "Robin" label is just silly. 

Saying he isn't on Scottie Pippen's level isn't marginalizing him. He can be a top 10 player in the league and still not be one of the 50 greatest players of all time. I think the ROBIN thing is because the guy simply did not want to lead a team. He wanted to go somewhere to play second fiddle. He didn't want to be the alpha. Nothing wrong with that but that is the perception. Calling him Robin is hardly an insult....Robin (Nightwing) is pretty cool lol.

[Billingsley99]

23 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Saying he isn't on Scottie Pippen's level isn't marginalizing him. He can be a top 10 player in the league and still not be one of the 50 greatest players of all time. I think the ROBIN thing is because the guy simply did not want to lead a team. He wanted to go somewhere to play second fiddle. He didn't want to be the alpha. Nothing wrong with that but that is the perception. Calling him Robin is hardly an insult....Robin (Nightwing) is pretty cool lol.

Aquaman was always a nobody and look at him now. Almost every woman in America wants him. 

[IUALUM03]

10 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Self-recognized PG apologist here, lol. That said, this kind of narrative is about as lame duck as lame duck can be at this point.

The guy is hands down one of the best 2-way players in the game, every NBA player recognizes how good he is, Lillard tried to get him to the Blazers, Kawhi insisted on the Clippers getting him to get Kawhi to the Clippers, but guys who weren't happy with how things went down in Pacer land have to try to find reasons to marginalize his game. I guess we should all just ignore how badly Bird messed up that Roster, how literally every single player PG had played with was traded or left in disgust with Bird. Trying to marginalize PG is silly. He's one of the best players in the League. Not the best, not top 5, not better than LBJ, Kawhi, AD, and a few others, but whether you consider him top 10 (as most do now) or top 15, the "Robin" label is just silly. 

I think you just stated why he is a Robin versus Batman.  All other team's stars are trying to get them to come to them versus they other way around. I like PG as a player and think he can play like a top 5 player at points, but is really more of a top 15-20 player.  He just has never elevated his team outside of his stats.  I know you could argue he did for the Pacers during their ECF years, but I would argue that was more indicative of David West versus him.  In OKC, they fell flat, even though you could argue that was because of Brody versus him, but I would say it was shared between the both of them. Once more, great player, but I don't think he elevates the overall team's play in the same manner Kyrie or Westbrook don't.

[dgambill]

10 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Actually if you look at what PG has done in the playoffs his numbers increase across the board and he's usually one of the top scorers and best defenders, in the playoffs.In the playoffs, he's outstanding. That you're saying otherwise means you're not actually following his game.

I watched every game with the Pacers. When the game was on the line...PG didn't show up...didn't knock down shots. That fictional Gatorade commercial might have been his only game winning shot. Absolutely great player...always got abused by Lebron (but who didn't). I'm not going to tear him down..fabulous player...but I'd take Scottie Pippen over him any day.

[Zlinedavid]

Pippen was a Robin as well. He did better when he was the compliment to MJ vs the #1. Nothing wrong with that.

[Hoosierhoopster]

53 minutes ago, IUALUM03 said:

I think you just stated why he is a Robin versus Batman.  All other team's stars are trying to get them to come to them versus they other way around. I like PG as a player and think he can play like a top 5 player at points, but is really more of a top 15-20 player.  He just has never elevated his team outside of his stats.  I know you could argue he did for the Pacers during their ECF years, but I would argue that was more indicative of David West versus him.  In OKC, they fell flat, even though you could argue that was because of Brody versus him, but I would say it was shared between the both of them. Once more, great player, but I don't think he elevates the overall team's play in the same manner Kyrie or Westbrook don't.

I guess in the end it's a matter of perception -- one that I strongly disagree with, but perception regardless. On the top  15-20 player thing, well, there's just no basis for that at all. Again, he just came off a year as the second leading scorer in the League (not on his team, he was of course the leading scorer), in the top 3 for League and Defensive MVP, lead the League in steals and steals per game, etc. I don't see how you can say, with a straight face, that makes him a Robin. Whatever though.

As to elevating his team besides stats? You can say it was West, but it was PG leading those Pacers EC finals teams against LBJ, and it was, clearly, PG that took the Thunder to the top of the standings and was leading them towards a deep run, as the #1 player (not #2) on that team, before his shoulder injuries. That's not opinion, it's fact. But again, whatever.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, Billingsley99 said:

Aquaman was always a nobody and look at him now. Almost every woman in America wants him. 

No doubt...quite the evolution lol.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

Saying he isn't on Scottie Pippen's level isn't marginalizing him. He can be a top 10 player in the league and still not be one of the 50 greatest players of all time. I think the ROBIN thing is because the guy simply did not want to lead a team. He wanted to go somewhere to play second fiddle. He didn't want to be the alpha. Nothing wrong with that but that is the perception. Calling him Robin is hardly an insult....Robin (Nightwing) is pretty cool lol.

Again, perception. He was leading the Thunder, he was NOT second fiddle, but then he had those major shoulder injuries requiring surgery. Guys teamed up with LBJ, I guess you can say Wade was a Robin (who isn't, to LeBron), but he is of course one of the top 50 players ever. I don't see anyone bashing Wade, or Bosh, for teaming up with LBJ. Or Kyrie (who, I think pretty clearly, cannot lead a team, no argument there), or now AD. Is AD a Robin? He couldn't carry the Pels anywhere -- really, who could? He teamed up with LeBron. That doesn't make him a Robin.

What NBA team has won with one star? The only one that comes to mind is Dallas with Dirk, in that one special run. Otherwise, EVERYONE is teaming up. Can say it started with the Boston team with Ray Allen , and Garnett and Pierce. Who's the Robin? Allen? He had to team up and of course did it again later to get a ring. He's also the all time leading 3-point shooter in NBA history and in many people's book a top 50 player. Pierce? Garnett? There's only one guy in the League, LeBron, who can single handedly carry a team to the Finals, he did it with the first Cleveland teams, but even he couldn't win without getting other guys. That's just the NBA.

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, Zlinedavid said:

With today's training methods and techniques, I think he'd do quite well.  For the time, he was a very athletic big man and I think you could capitalize on that.  Keep in mind, he was only 225 lbs at his peak, breaking the mold of what you'd expect out of a '70s/'80s post player (big, bulky, etc). 

IMO, you'd see something like Anthony Davis. 

I love how you answered this. So many times when comparing players from the 80's, etc., people say, well that guy had no perimeter game so he would get killed in today's game. Or, that guy was only 225lbs, guys like Dwight Howard would kill him, etc.

When talking Kareem and asking how he would play in 2019/20, you have to add in that he would have today's training, today's nutrition, today's luxuries, equipement, etc. that current players have, and also that if Kareem was in this era he would absolutely have worked on extending his range. He was a long, athletic center that would be an absolutely beast in any era. 

The same thing is when people try and say Dirk was better than Bird or that Bird is a notch below some of the all-time greats and they point to Bird's 3pt percentage. Well, in 1980 6'9" guys didn't practice shooting 3's like they do today and nobody took them at the volume or practiced them at the volume they do today. If you dropped a 24 year old Bird in today's NBA, training and working on 3pt shooting like they do today, he would be phenomenal. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by BGleas

[Billingsley99]

Just now, Hoosierhoopster said:

Again, perception. He was leading the Thunder, he was NOT second fiddle, but then he had those major shoulder injuries requiring surgery. Guys teamed up with LBJ, I guess you can say Wade was a Robin (who isn't, to LeBron), but he is of course one of the top 50 players ever. I don't see anyone bashing Wade, or Bosh, for teaming up with LBJ. Or Kyrie (who, I think pretty clearly, cannot lead a team, no argument there), or now AD. Is AD a Robin? He couldn't carry the Pels anywhere -- really, who could? He teamed up with LeBron. That doesn't make him a Robin.

What NBA team has won with one star? The only one that comes to mind is Dallas with Dirk, in that one special run. Otherwise, EVERYONE is teaming up. Can say it started with the Boston team with Ray Allen , and Garnett and Pierce. Who's the Robin? Allen? He had to team up and of course did it again later to get a ring. He's also the all time leading 3-point shooter in NBA history and in many people's book a top 50 player. Pierce? Garnett? There's only one guy in the League, LeBron, who can single handedly carry a team to the Finals, he did it with the first Cleveland teams, but even he couldn't win without getting other guys. That's just the NBA.

Have not seen read or heard anyone bashing him. Yes Wade was a Robin to both Shaq and LBJ, no shame in it.  My thoughts all along is that PG did not like being the focal point and it showed now that stress is gone and he is flourishing. Not a knock in anyway. I use the Robin issue to just ruffle some feathers.  PG is a very good player. 

[dgambill]

5 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Again, perception. He was leading the Thunder, he was NOT second fiddle, but then he had those major shoulder injuries requiring surgery. Guys teamed up with LBJ, I guess you can say Wade was a Robin (who isn't, to LeBron), but he is of course one of the top 50 players ever. I don't see anyone bashing Wade, or Bosh, for teaming up with LBJ. Or Kyrie (who, I think pretty clearly, cannot lead a team, no argument there), or now AD. Is AD a Robin? He couldn't carry the Pels anywhere -- really, who could? He teamed up with LeBron. That doesn't make him a Robin.

What NBA team has won with one star? The only one that comes to mind is Dallas with Dirk, in that one special run. Otherwise, EVERYONE is teaming up. Can say it started with the Boston team with Ray Allen , and Garnett and Pierce. Who's the Robin? Allen? He had to team up and of course did it again later to get a ring. He's also the all time leading 3-point shooter in NBA history and in many people's book a top 50 player. Pierce? Garnett? There's only one guy in the League, LeBron, who can single handedly carry a team to the Finals, he did it with the first Cleveland teams, but even he couldn't win without getting other guys. That's just the NBA.

Call him Robin, Aquaman, Flash...whatever. PG joined Russ....who is an alpha...leader of that team no matter who avgs more points. KD avg more points but in the end his butting heads with style etc with Russ is why he left. Russ wanted to be the man so KD said this is ridiculous I'm moving on. Now PG went to Clips...where Kawai is the man. PG hasn't won championships or mvps or any of that. However these justice leagues etc fit together...one thing is clear. Kawai is the man in LA...Russ was the man in OKC...and PG could have remained the man in Indy...but left. I see what you are saying..I do...I just disagree. There is only one pack leader...and it aint PG...and like Bills said...even in Indiana PG might have been the best player but David West was the leader of those teams. By the time he moved on the team chemistry fell apart with PG at the helm.

[BGleas]

I think the answer to the PG thing is kind of in the middle. I don't think you win a title with PG as your "Batman", but I think you can absolutely win a title with a 1A/1B with PG being one of those guys. The difference? I don't think Toronto wins a title with PG and their second best player being Kyle Lowry. That's a clear Batman/Robin scenario. I think Kahwi is on a different level than PG, it's splitting hairs, but I do think Kahwi is a notch up. 

But, take the '08 Celtics. KG was the heart and soul of that team, but Pierce was the guy they went to in winning time. Who was batman and who was robin? Most would probably say KG was Batman, but again Pierce was the guy finishing. Pierce was the guy matching LeBron when they both put up 40 in Game 7 when the Celtics beat the Cavs. Pierce was the Finals MVP and outplayed Kobe. My point? PG can absolutely win a title in that situation. Put him in the Pierce role and yes, their winning a title. 

I just don't think a team built around PG is winning a title. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by BGleas

[Zlinedavid]

32 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Have not seen read or heard anyone bashing him. Yes Wade was a Robin to both Shaq and LBJ, no shame in it.  My thoughts all along is that PG did not like being the focal point and it showed now that stress is gone and he is flourishing. Not a knock in anyway. I use the Robin issue to just ruffle some feathers.  PG is a very good player. 

 

 

One thing.... If "Who joined who" was part of the criteria, Shaq and LeBron joined Wade's team, not vice versa.

[Billingsley99]

7 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

 

 

One thing.... If "Who joined who" was part of the criteria, Shaq and LeBron joined Wade's team, not vice versa.

Not a part of it in my thought process, just who is the Alpha

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

Call him Robin, Aquaman, Flash...whatever. PG joined Russ....who is an alpha...leader of that team no matter who avgs more points. KD avg more points but in the end his butting heads with style etc with Russ is why he left. Russ wanted to be the man so KD said this is ridiculous I'm moving on. Now PG went to Clips...where Kawai is the man. PG hasn't won championships or mvps or any of that. However these justice leagues etc fit together...one thing is clear. Kawai is the man in LA...Russ was the man in OKC...and PG could have remained the man in Indy...but left. I see what you are saying..I do...I just disagree. There is only one pack leader...and it aint PG...and like Bills said...even in Indiana PG might have been the best player but David West was the leader of those teams. By the time he moved on the team chemistry fell apart with PG at the helm.

We've probably run this horse to ground -- simple point though, the Pacers traded PG to the Thunder, he did not "join Russ." And PG has won defensive MVP, and of course has been in the final 3 for League MVP and defensive MVP just last season. And already covered it, but "PG at the helm" just isn't accurate or fair. Bird traded away and lost every single player PG played with. The P's are in good shape now, with Pritchard, but Bird ruined the team they had. That's just fact.

[jefftheref]

48 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

We've probably run this horse to ground -- simple point though, the Pacers traded PG to the Thunder, he did not "join Russ." And PG has won defensive MVP, and of course has been in the final 3 for League MVP and defensive MVP just last season. And already covered it, but "PG at the helm" just isn't accurate or fair. Bird traded away and lost every single player PG played with. The P's are in good shape now, with Pritchard, but Bird ruined the team they had. That's just fact.

In my opinion Bird was a bird brain when it came to running the team. A great player but a ??ss poor executive. 

[ATX_sig]

No Luka.   Get's hurt in the 2nd minute of the Heat game Saturday.  Out 2 weeks.  The team was in shock and got down by over 20 in the 1st half.  2nd half came back and took the lead in the game before losing late.  Then Mavs beat the hottest team in the league in their house without Luka to stop their 18 game streak.  Who would of thought.  They have a week against many of the beasts in the East.  Celtics, Sixers, Raptors yet to go this week.  Most likely losses but RC has this entire team playing well together.  So who knows. Let's go Mavs.