NBA Thread

[NotIThatLives]

3 hours ago, Zlinedavid said:

Pippen was a Robin as well. He did better when he was the compliment to MJ vs the #1. Nothing wrong with that.

And was nowhere near the scorer/shooter.

[Hoosierhoopster]

16 minutes ago, ATX_sig said:

No Luka.   Get's hurt in the 2nd minute of the Heat game Saturday.  Out 2 weeks.  The team was in shock and got down by over 20 in the 1st half.  2nd half came back and took the lead in the game before losing late.  Then Mavs beat the hottest team in the league in their house without Luka to stop their 18 game streak.  Who would of thought.  They have a week against many of the beasts in the East.  Celtics, Sixers, Raptors yet to go this week.  Most likely losses but RC has this entire team playing well together.  So who knows. Let's go Mavs.

That dude is amazing. The kid is only 20. I thought they had a chance to be a playoff team pairing him with Porzingis, but no way did I see this monster jump from him. And yes, Dallas is playing legit ball, Carlisle is a really good coach, and that team is now balanced and legit. Mavs are a real feel good story this year.

[Billingsley99]

I heard Chris Hagan who is filling in for JMV say at this point in their careers, discussing  LBJ and AD on which was batman and which Robin

 How dare he insult them

[Zlinedavid]

49 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

That dude is amazing. The kid is only 20. I thought they had a chance to be a playoff team pairing him with Porzingis, but no way did I see this monster jump from him. And yes, Dallas is playing legit ball, Carlisle is a really good coach, and that team is now balanced and legit. Mavs are a real feel good story this year.

And....they're still young.  Out of their players that have played meaningful minutes this year, none is over 30.  Seth Curry is the oldest at 29. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

30 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

And....they're still young.  Out of their players that have played meaningful minutes this year, none is over 30.  Seth Curry is the oldest at 29. 

And the Knicks screwed the pooch, again. Porzingis is not the next LeBron, but he's pretty good. And they just let him walk, so they could get Durant. Lol.

But back to the Mavs. I'd love to be a Mavs fan right now, future is bright for that team, and Doncic, for sure.

[Zlinedavid]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

And the Knicks screwed the pooch, again. Porzingis is not the next LeBron, but he's pretty good. And they just let him walk, so they could get Durant. Lol.

But back to the Mavs. I'd love to be a Mavs fan right now, future is bright for that team, and Doncic, for sure.

To get Durant....who might never be Durant again.

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

And the Knicks screwed the pooch, again. Porzingis is not the next LeBron, but he's pretty good. And they just let him walk, so they could get Durant. Lol.

But back to the Mavs. I'd love to be a Mavs fan right now, future is bright for that team, and Doncic, for sure.

Hey at least they got a lottery pick Dennis Smith Jr. who is avg about 5pts on 32% shooting!!

[IU Scott]

Big win for the Pacers as they beat the Lakers 105-102/  Now 18-9 but that is only good for 6th in the East right now.

[Stlboiler23]

14 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Big win for the Pacers as they beat the Lakers 105-102/  Now 18-9 but that is only good for 6th in the East right now.

Loved seeing all those fair weather Lakers fans all pissed haha.   

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Big win for the Pacers as they beat the Lakers 105-102/  Now 18-9 but that is only good for 6th in the East right now.

Props - was just coming here to gloat on the P’s win. Granted AD was out but a good win 

[Hoosierhoopster]

11 hours ago, BGleas said:

I think the answer to the PG thing is kind of in the middle. I don't think you win a title with PG as your "Batman", but I think you can absolutely win a title with a 1A/1B with PG being one of those guys. The difference? I don't think Toronto wins a title with PG and their second best player being Kyle Lowry. That's a clear Batman/Robin scenario. I think Kahwi is on a different level than PG, it's splitting hairs, but I do think Kahwi is a notch up. 

But, take the '08 Celtics. KG was the heart and soul of that team, but Pierce was the guy they went to in winning time. Who was batman and who was robin? Most would probably say KG was Batman, but again Pierce was the guy finishing. Pierce was the guy matching LeBron when they both put up 40 in Game 7 when the Celtics beat the Cavs. Pierce was the Finals MVP and outplayed Kobe. My point? PG can absolutely win a title in that situation. Put him in the Pierce role and yes, their winning a title. 

I just don't think a team built around PG is winning a title. 

I don’t know. It’s hard to make that kind of distinction and draw that opinion other than just pure opinion. 

A couple of years ago, sure. But when the guy just finished as the League’s 2d leading scorer while also leading the League in steals and spg, and shooting 39 percent or so on 3s and finishing I think it was 3d overall on 3’s made, well, name the other players at that level on both sides of the ball? 

He was killing it, and leading that Thunder team very well, before his serious shoulder injuries. The “Batman and Robin” thing is just fan opinion of whether a player is capable of being the primary guy who can lead a team to a championship. 

On the one hand, how many players are? There are really only a few and maybe only 2, LeBron and Kawhi, both of whom have proved it. (When lacking a true elite second player)

btw, people said the same thing about Kawhi until he did it in Toronto. He played with Duncan, it was Duncan’s team, right?

On the other, that’s a kind of silly measuring stick, it basically means there are 2, maybe 3 Batmans in the NBA and everyone else is a “Robin.” 

AD couldn’t do it, had to team up with LBJ. Durant is clearly a top 2-3 player in the League but he had to leave the Thunder and team up with the splash brothers to win a championship. But then he gets called the “Batman” of that team with Curry et al, Curry of course being the heart and soul of that team and the guy who had already led them to championship. The label itself to me is, well, stupid. It’s a lazy way of pigeon holing players to make it easier for fans. 

PG is I think clearly now a top 10 player and with Kawhi one of the best, really 2 best, 2-way players in the game. LeBron at 35 just isn’t. Durant, if he comes back 100 percent, is as well. After them, who? 

So to say you don’t think a team built around him can win it, well, fair opinion, but just opinion that to me ignores everything he just showed last year and is again showing this year.

He can’t win it without another elite player, but then who outside of LBJ and Kawhi can? 

But as I said at the start, I don’t know. I think he has developed into one of the most dominant players on both sides of the ball and at this stage in his career is capable of winning it with a team of complimentary players built around him - at least one other elite player - but I don’t know that, he’d basically have to have already accomplished it to have any conclusive opinion on it 

[BGleas]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don’t know. It’s hard to make that kind of distinction and draw that opinion other than just pure opinion. 

A couple of years ago, sure. But when the guy just finished as the League’s 2d leading scorer while also leading the League in steals and spg, and shooting 39 percent or so on 3s and finishing I think it was 3d overall on 3’s made, well, name the other players at that level on both sides of the ball? 

He was killing it, and leading that Thunder team very well, before his serious shoulder injuries. The “Batman and Robin” thing is just fan opinion of whether a player is capable of being the primary guy who can lead a team to a championship. 

On the one hand, how many players are? There are really only a few and maybe only 2, LeBron and Kawhi, both of whom have proved it. 

On the other, that’s a kind of silly measuring stick, it basically means there are 2, maybe 3 Batmans in the NBA and everyone else is a “Robin.” 

AD couldn’t do it, had to team up with LBJ. Durant is clearly a top 2-3 player in the League but he had to leave the Thunder and team up with the splash brothers to win a championship. But then he gets called the “Batman” of that team with Curry et al, Curry of course being the heart and soul of that team and the guy who had already led them to championship. The label itself to me is, well, stupid. It’s a lazy way of pigeon holing players to make it easier for fans. 

PG is I think clearly now a top 10 player and with Kawhi one of the best, really 2 best, 2-way players in the game. LeBron at 35 just isn’t. Durant, if he comes back 100 percent, is as well. After them, who? 

So to say you don’t think a team built around him can win it, well, fair opinion, but just opinion that to me ignores everything he just showed last year and is again showing this year.

He can’t win it without another elite player, but then who outside of LBJ and Kawhi can? 

Oh, it’s absolutely just my opinion. I didn’t present it as a fact. 

I’m also not ignoring what PG did last year. I know what he did, but even while it was happening I never seriously considered OKC a championship contender, and that is really the point.

Guys I think you can build around to win a title? LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, Curry, Davis. That might be it. I mean as the clear #1. Giannis might be added soon. Like I said, you can definitely win a title with PG. Heck, you put PG on the Lakers and they’re probably still the title favorite. You put PG with Kawhi and they’re a title favorite  

It’s semantics, sure. But yes, I do think there are only a handful of guys that can carry a team to a title. That doesn’t mean only those guys can win titles. Again, the ‘08 Celtics are a good example. None of Pierce, Garnett or Ray Allen are on the Kobe, Duncan, LeBron level, but you put the three of them together and their legit champions (that Celtics team was a KG knee injury away from going back-to-back and maybe 3 straight. 

It’s my opinion. I think PG is a fantastic player, like you said, top 10. But PG is a notch below LeBron, Durant when healthy, Kawhi, Curry, and maybe soon Giannis. It’s not a huge slight to him. He’s at the very top of that 2nd tier, IMO. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

16 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Oh, it’s absolutely just my opinion. I didn’t present it as a fact. 

I’m also not ignoring what PG did last year. I know what he did, but even while it was happening I never seriously considered OKC a championship contender, and that is really the point.

Guys I think you can build around to win a title? LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, Curry, Davis. That might be it. I mean as the clear #1. Giannis might be added soon. Like I said, you can definitely win a title with PG. Heck, you put PG on the Lakers and they’re probably still the title favorite. You put PG with Kawhi and they’re a title favorite  

It’s semantics, sure. But yes, I do think there are only a handful of guys that can carry a team to a title. That doesn’t mean only those guys can win titles. Again, the ‘08 Celtics are a good example. None of Pierce, Garnett or Ray Allen are on the Kobe, Duncan, LeBron level, but you put the three of them together and their legit champions (that Celtics team was a KG knee injury away from going back-to-back and maybe 3 straight. 

It’s my opinion. I think PG is a fantastic player, like you said, top 10. But PG is a notch below LeBron, Durant when healthy, Kawhi, Curry, and maybe soon Giannis. It’s not a huge slight to him. He’s at the very top of that 2nd tier, IMO. 

I don’t disagree with your top players though as good as Curry is I don’t put him on that level. 

For one he is a weak defender. Add to that how he looked this year without Klay. But then that also takes me back to how I look at this and how we see things a bit differently— clearly you can build a team around Curry and win it all, stating the obvious, but by himself, or without a Klay and really also at least a Draymond, he’s not winning a championship. And he took a back seat to Durant. But he’s obviously (I think) no “Robin.” 

And again, people said this same thing about Kawhi before just this past season. PG and Kawhi are very similar players (yes I think Kawhi is better, though not from the arc). So could PG win with Siakim and the rest of that cast in Toronto? You think not, I think he could, but we’ll probably never know - and i’ll be happy if he wins with Kawhi —

Good discussion Gleas 

 

[Billingsley99]

7 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don’t know. It’s hard to make that kind of distinction and draw that opinion other than just pure opinion. 

A couple of years ago, sure. But when the guy just finished as the League’s 2d leading scorer while also leading the League in steals and spg, and shooting 39 percent or so on 3s and finishing I think it was 3d overall on 3’s made, well, name the other players at that level on both sides of the ball? 

He was killing it, and leading that Thunder team very well, before his serious shoulder injuries. The “Batman and Robin” thing is just fan opinion of whether a player is capable of being the primary guy who can lead a team to a championship. 

On the one hand, how many players are? There are really only a few and maybe only 2, LeBron and Kawhi, both of whom have proved it. (When lacking a true elite second player)

btw, people said the same thing about Kawhi until he did it in Toronto. He played with Duncan, it was Duncan’s team, right?

On the other, that’s a kind of silly measuring stick, it basically means there are 2, maybe 3 Batmans in the NBA and everyone else is a “Robin.” 

AD couldn’t do it, had to team up with LBJ. Durant is clearly a top 2-3 player in the League but he had to leave the Thunder and team up with the splash brothers to win a championship. But then he gets called the “Batman” of that team with Curry et al, Curry of course being the heart and soul of that team and the guy who had already led them to championship. The label itself to me is, well, stupid. It’s a lazy way of pigeon holing players to make it easier for fans. 

PG is I think clearly now a top 10 player and with Kawhi one of the best, really 2 best, 2-way players in the game. LeBron at 35 just isn’t. Durant, if he comes back 100 percent, is as well. After them, who? 

So to say you don’t think a team built around him can win it, well, fair opinion, but just opinion that to me ignores everything he just showed last year and is again showing this year.

He can’t win it without another elite player, but then who outside of LBJ and Kawhi can? 

But as I said at the start, I don’t know. I think he has developed into one of the most dominant players on both sides of the ball and at this stage in his career is capable of winning it with a team of complimentary players built around him - at least one other elite player - but I don’t know that, he’d basically have to have already accomplished it to have any conclusive opinion on it 

To stop ruffling all of the feathers with this Robin talk I will speak of it no more. To be PC how about we refer to PG KL as Val Kilmer Batman and Michael Keaton Batman and the fans can decide which is which. Unless someone wants to be Christian Bale Batman and if so they have my approval just replace either Val Batman or Keaton Batman with Bale Batman. Doc Rivers can be Alfred. Everyone happy😀. Win Win

Still awaiting confirmation as to whether Ben Affleck Batman is acceptable.  As soon as I get word I will update everyone. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Billingsley99

[Artesian_86]

I love this pic!!! It shows the true grit and heart of the Pacers right now!!!!! Besides, I think he could pass for "The Wolverine"............

[Billingsley99]

21 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

I love this pic!!! It shows the true grit and heart of the Pacers right now!!!!! Besides, I think he could pass for "The Wolverine"............

That's awesome.  So glad we did not move Sabonis. With the Wolverine reference are you trying to start a Marvel vs DC discussion? If Sabonis is Wolverine then who  is... I Kid I kid

 

[BGleas]

7 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don’t disagree with your top players though as good as Curry is I don’t put him on that level. 

For one he is a weak defender. Add to that how he looked this year without Klay. But then that also takes me back to how I look at this and how we see things a bit differently— clearly you can build a team around Curry and win it all, stating the obvious, but by himself, or without a Klay and really also at least a Draymond, he’s not winning a championship. And he took a back seat to Durant. But he’s obviously (I think) no “Robin.” 

And again, people said this same thing about Kawhi before just this past season. PG and Kawhi are very similar players (yes I think Kawhi is better, though not from the arc). So could PG win with Siakim and the rest of that cast in Toronto? You think not, I think he could, but we’ll probably never know - and i’ll be happy if he wins with Kawhi —

Good discussion Gleas 

 

Always a good discussion!

Again, it’s all opinion. But, I’ve had Kawhi in the upper tier for several years, not just post-Toronto. I’ve always thought he was in that LeBron and Durant group, a level above guys like PG, Harden, Westbrook, etc.

As far as Curry, I’ve just always appreciated his game more than some others. Yes, he needed Klay, but I don’t think that the discussion has ever been that the top guys don’t need a second fiddle. Yes, Curry needed Klay. LeBron needed Wade and Kyrie. Jordan needed Pippen, etc., etc. But, those teams were built around Curry, LeBron and Jordan. 

[Artesian_86]

22 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

That's awesome.  So glad we did not move Sabonis. With the Wolverine reference are you trying to start a Marvel vs DC discussion? If Sabonis is Wolverine then who  is... I Kid I kid

 

Well,......"Superman" is helplessly staring at him.......

[Billingsley99]

23 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

Well,......"Superman" is helplessly staring at him.......

Why yes.. yes he is 

[NotIThatLives]

Without quoting text, I believe it was @bgleas that put Davis in a group you can build around.  I respectfully say, no way.  He has all the potential in the world but at this point he's been slighty more successful than Kevin Love by himself.  Love pre Cleveland, 3 all stars, avg 26 pts 12.5 rbs 4.4 a.  Davis best year was 28 and 10 .  I remember how great he looked in those 17-18 playoffs sweeping Portland and winning one against golden state.  But that's it.  A lot left to hope for with that potential.  I don't think the will to win is there.  We can go in on his roster bit last year's disaster wad on him.  It was a more improved roster than the previous that won 48 and they were horrible.  Then the "injuries" tanking and trading. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Always a good discussion!

Again, it’s all opinion. But, I’ve had Kawhi in the upper tier for several years, not just post-Toronto. I’ve always thought he was in that LeBron and Durant group, a level above guys like PG, Harden, Westbrook, etc.

As far as Curry, I’ve just always appreciated his game more than some others. Yes, he needed Klay, but I don’t think that the discussion has ever been that the top guys don’t need a second fiddle. Yes, Curry needed Klay. LeBron needed Wade and Kyrie. Jordan needed Pippen, etc., etc. But, those teams were built around Curry, LeBron and Jordan. 

Definitely a good discussion. Yes we mostly agree here -- it's really just which players we think fit that mold.

For me with a player like Curry, he exemplifies how you can build a team around him and win a championship (no question that the Warriors were his team), but that's while recognizing that you can do that despite that he's not (my opinion) on the same level as a LeBron, a Kawhi or a Durant. Those guys (my opinion) are a step above as all around players, they are dominant, and Curry singularly is not -- probably the best shooter the game has ever seen and I think one of the best point guards, but he can't dominate without Klay and probably Draymond, whereas LBJ, Kawhi, Durant are going to dominate regardless, while still needing another star or two to win it all.

I'm a two-way player guy, really why I'm so high on PG, just as I have always been on Kawhi. For me, a guy who is coming off being the second leading scorer in the League and minimally one of the best defenders in the game, leading all players in steals etc., and who was really carrying that Thunder team, is capable of being the alpha - key player on a chamionship team with the right pieces around him.

For that matter, I don't think Kawhi would've won a championship if you swapped him out for PG on that Thunder team. Not the right supporting cast, including Westbrook. But put PG with that Toronto team, Siakim et al, yes I think he could've done what Kawhi did. And before last season, many didn't think Kawhi could.

[dgambill]

11 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don’t know. It’s hard to make that kind of distinction and draw that opinion other than just pure opinion. 

A couple of years ago, sure. But when the guy just finished as the League’s 2d leading scorer while also leading the League in steals and spg, and shooting 39 percent or so on 3s and finishing I think it was 3d overall on 3’s made, well, name the other players at that level on both sides of the ball? 

He was killing it, and leading that Thunder team very well, before his serious shoulder injuries. The “Batman and Robin” thing is just fan opinion of whether a player is capable of being the primary guy who can lead a team to a championship. 

On the one hand, how many players are? There are really only a few and maybe only 2, LeBron and Kawhi, both of whom have proved it. (When lacking a true elite second player)

btw, people said the same thing about Kawhi until he did it in Toronto. He played with Duncan, it was Duncan’s team, right?

On the other, that’s a kind of silly measuring stick, it basically means there are 2, maybe 3 Batmans in the NBA and everyone else is a “Robin.” 

AD couldn’t do it, had to team up with LBJ. Durant is clearly a top 2-3 player in the League but he had to leave the Thunder and team up with the splash brothers to win a championship. But then he gets called the “Batman” of that team with Curry et al, Curry of course being the heart and soul of that team and the guy who had already led them to championship. The label itself to me is, well, stupid. It’s a lazy way of pigeon holing players to make it easier for fans. 

PG is I think clearly now a top 10 player and with Kawhi one of the best, really 2 best, 2-way players in the game. LeBron at 35 just isn’t. Durant, if he comes back 100 percent, is as well. After them, who? 

So to say you don’t think a team built around him can win it, well, fair opinion, but just opinion that to me ignores everything he just showed last year and is again showing this year.

He can’t win it without another elite player, but then who outside of LBJ and Kawhi can? 

But as I said at the start, I don’t know. I think he has developed into one of the most dominant players on both sides of the ball and at this stage in his career is capable of winning it with a team of complimentary players built around him - at least one other elite player - but I don’t know that, he’d basically have to have already accomplished it to have any conclusive opinion on it 

I don't want to get drawn into the PG thing anymore but I think you can win with one superstar. Toronto did last year. Golden State before Durant got there did with Curry. I'd say the Spurs did with just Duncan (although he had steller cast). Dallas did with Dirk. Lakers won it with just Kobe (after Shaq). Houston won it with just Olajawaun (I'd argue Drexler was not superstar still). Anyways...depending on how you want to measure superstar. Top 10 in the league?? HOF? But you need multiple all-stars likely. I mean Golden States first two finals Thompson and Green and Barnes and Iggy were great players but I wouldn't say any outside Steph was a star. I mean Giannis is the only superstar on the Bucks and they absolutely have a shot at a Championship. This whole you have to have multiple superstars Top 10 caliber players theme to me is bogus. You can name far far more teams that had 2 and sometimes 3 stars that didn't win it all (Houston/GS/maybe even 76ers example last year alone) than I'd say have won it all if we are just talking Bulls era forward. Fact is...and I think is proof of our discussion with PG....the definition of a super star has come down or the gap between them and the other great players in the league has narrowed. My definition of a superstar is pretty narrow. Guys like Kawai, Lebron, AD, Giannis, Embid, Curry, Harden with guys like Russ and KAT and CP3 kinda right there coming and going. Anyways I think it can be argued you can build a really really deep talented team that can compete and win with just one superstar or even none (Boston). The only thing is your supporting cast have to play really well and yes..your superstar better be a good closer...not just a stat guy.

[Billingsley99]

Load management my behind. Love what LBJ said last night after the game.

Wilt Chamberlain averaged over 48 minutes a game in 61-62. Sat out 1 min all year

 

Havlicek averaged 45 minutes a game for his career as did Bill Russell.  I have zero sympathy for these current pansy players.  Shove load management right up their $300 million rear ends.

[dgambill]

2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Load management my behind. Love what LBJ said last night after the game.

Wilt Chamberlain averaged over 48 minutes a game in 61-62. Sat out 1 min all year

 

Havlicek averaged 45 minutes a game for his career as did Bill Russell.  I have zero sympathy for these current pansy players.  Shove load management right up their $300 million rear ends.

wow....lol...shot at Kawai across the staple center perhaps lol.

[Zlinedavid]

4 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Load management my behind. Love what LBJ said last night after the game.

Wilt Chamberlain averaged over 48 minutes a game in 61-62. Sat out 1 min all year

 

Havlicek averaged 45 minutes a game for his career as did Bill Russell.  I have zero sympathy for these current pansy players.  Shove load management right up their $300 million rear ends.

And get off his lawn!