NBA Thread

[Billingsley99]

20 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

And get off his lawn!

Yes sir . I feel like Scott

[dgambill]

3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Yes sir . I feel like Scott

Sometimes I wonder about Kawai. Very competitive etc but I could see him retiring early and then never stepping foot on the court again. Guy just doesn't seem to enjoy playing the game. If I loved it...like you see Lebron does..you want to be out there playing!

Edited December 18, 2019 by dgambill

[IU Scott]

11 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Yes sir . I feel like Scott

I knew you would be coming around to see the light.  To me if the players today is way more physically fit than the players of the past they should be able to play more minutes.

[Billingsley99]

31 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Sometimes I wonder about Kawai. Very competitive etc but I could see him retiring early and then never stepping foot on the court again. Guy just doesn't seem to enjoy playing the game. If I loved it...like you see Lebron does..you want to be out there playing!

To me I see it as to KL it's a job and LBJ it's much much more. An old Yankee maybe DiMaggio said something along the lines of it's my duty to the fans to play every day.  Might be someone first time seeing me play

 How mad would you have been if you bought your family early Christmas present to see Lakers and LBJ needed to rest

 I gonna try the load management pitch to my boss I will let you all know how it goes

[dgambill]

1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

To me I see it as to KL it's a job and LBJ it's much much more. An old Yankee maybe DiMaggio said something along the lines of it's my duty to the fans to play every day.  Might be someone first time seeing me play

 How mad would you have been if you bought your family early Christmas present to see Lakers and LBJ needed to rest

 I gonna try the load management pitch to my boss I will let you all know how it goes

I always used the old adage you get paid to practice but play the games for fun....but I love what Joe said!

[Billingsley99]

21 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I always used the old adage you get paid to practice but play the games for fun....but I love what Joe said!

For that reason alone I hope the Val Kilmer/ Michael Keaton Batmen led Clippers flop

[Zlinedavid]

26 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I knew you would be coming around to see the light.  To me if the players today is way more physically fit than the players of the past they should be able to play more minutes.

Custom designed, custom built racing vehicles have top speeds, cornering abilities, braking abilities, etc that today's standard production vehicles and even custom racing vehicles of 20-30 years ago can only dream of.  They're also more expensive and require more downtime to maintain. 

[Billingsley99]

20 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

Custom designed, custom built racing vehicles have top speeds, cornering abilities, braking abilities, etc that today's standard production vehicles and even custom racing vehicles of 20-30 years ago can only dream of.  They're also more expensive and require more downtime to maintain. 

If I were a race fan I might buy it. If 34 year old LBJ can go 40 minutes a night 75 plus games a year he just must be that much greater than a 29 year old KL that needed more downtime to maintain. 

[Zlinedavid]

Just now, Billingsley99 said:

If I were a race fan I might buy it. If 34 year old LBJ can go 40 minutes a night 75 plus games a year he just must be that much greater than a 29 year old KL that needed more downtime to maintain. 

Custom builds are exactly that.  One may not be as durable as another.  But, if it gets the job done when it counts, does it matter?

[Billingsley99]

19 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

Custom builds are exactly that.  One may not be as durable as another.  But, if it gets the job done when it counts, does it matter?

We shall see. I think if I were to custom build a basketball player he just might look like LeBron. 

I would say he has gotten it done. KL jury still out.

[Hoosierhoopster]

57 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I don't want to get drawn into the PG thing anymore but I think you can win with one superstar. Toronto did last year. Golden State before Durant got there did with Curry. I'd say the Spurs did with just Duncan (although he had steller cast). Dallas did with Dirk. Lakers won it with just Kobe (after Shaq). Houston won it with just Olajawaun (I'd argue Drexler was not superstar still). Anyways...depending on how you want to measure superstar. Top 10 in the league?? HOF? But you need multiple all-stars likely. I mean Golden States first two finals Thompson and Green and Barnes and Iggy were great players but I wouldn't say any outside Steph was a star. I mean Giannis is the only superstar on the Bucks and they absolutely have a shot at a Championship. This whole you have to have multiple superstars Top 10 caliber players theme to me is bogus. You can name far far more teams that had 2 and sometimes 3 stars that didn't win it all (Houston/GS/maybe even 76ers example last year alone) than I'd say have won it all if we are just talking Bulls era forward. Fact is...and I think is proof of our discussion with PG....the definition of a super star has come down or the gap between them and the other great players in the league has narrowed. My definition of a superstar is pretty narrow. Guys like Kawai, Lebron, AD, Giannis, Embid, Curry, Harden with guys like Russ and KAT and CP3 kinda right there coming and going. Anyways I think it can be argued you can build a really really deep talented team that can compete and win with just one superstar or even none (Boston). The only thing is your supporting cast have to play really well and yes..your superstar better be a good closer...not just a stat guy.

How you define the other players, superstars or all stars, really the only team that has one with one is Dirk, and the only real exception to this "rule" is Detroit (with Chauncey). 

Toronto had one superstar, but the supporting cast were either all-stars or about-to-be superstar level players. Look at what Siakim is doing right now. It's just the next season -- he hasn't suddenly super upped his game, it's just that now he's not playing 'behind' Kawhi. And of course you have Lowry, 5-time all star, and Gasol, 2-time allstar, and you add in guys like Danny Green and Ibaka. That's a pretty stacked team.

Golden State is (imo) a 1-super star team before Durant, but you had a group of top 20 or so players in Klay, Draymond, Iguodala, all allstars. Golden State is more in the mold of a San Antonio, fantastic ball movement and team play, but it's not like Curry didn't have all stars around him.

The Spurs? Wait a minute now. That was Duncan's team, but Kawhi, while playing "behind" him, obviously a multi-year allstar and budding superstar, Manu, Parker, et al, he was also surrounded by allstar-level players with a budding superstar. Let's not forget Kawhi's defensive MVPs and he was the title game MVP while playing with Duncan.

Bucks -- well, they haven't even made it to an NBA finals yet. They might, but including them here is premature, they haven't won anything.

Including Embiid as a superstar? No way. He 'flashes' greatness, and then he does things like play a whole game ending up with ZERO points. Name one other superstar who has done that. Pretty sure you can't. He's not a superstar, he's just not there. 

Really this discussion started out as labeling PG some kind of Robin. Again, I don't buy that at all, and many said the same thing about Kawhi, who took all kinds of bashing during his walk-away year from San Antonio over their dispute with his medical team. They're very similar players, and they're both dominant, on both sides of the ball.

[IUALUM03]

12 hours ago, BGleas said:

Oh, it’s absolutely just my opinion. I didn’t present it as a fact. 

I’m also not ignoring what PG did last year. I know what he did, but even while it was happening I never seriously considered OKC a championship contender, and that is really the point.

Guys I think you can build around to win a title? LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, Curry, Davis. That might be it. I mean as the clear #1. Giannis might be added soon. Like I said, you can definitely win a title with PG. Heck, you put PG on the Lakers and they’re probably still the title favorite. You put PG with Kawhi and they’re a title favorite  

It’s semantics, sure. But yes, I do think there are only a handful of guys that can carry a team to a title. That doesn’t mean only those guys can win titles. Again, the ‘08 Celtics are a good example. None of Pierce, Garnett or Ray Allen are on the Kobe, Duncan, LeBron level, but you put the three of them together and their legit champions (that Celtics team was a KG knee injury away from going back-to-back and maybe 3 straight. 

It’s my opinion. I think PG is a fantastic player, like you said, top 10. But PG is a notch below LeBron, Durant when healthy, Kawhi, Curry, and maybe soon Giannis. It’s not a huge slight to him. He’s at the very top of that 2nd tier, IMO. 

Not trying to continue this discussion, but I will throw this out there to piggy back your comments,  If the Clippers and remove PG, I still think many would consider the Clips a title contender.  If you take away Kawai and leave PG, I would argue that most people wouldn't put them in that category.  That is the difference.  That is the distinction.  It is not saying that PG is not a great player, but he isn't THE guy, but more a complementary piece of a great team, which could be filled by many players in the league.  To be clear, he can win you some games on his own, but not win a championship.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, IUALUM03 said:

Not trying to continue this discussion, but I will throw this out there to piggy back your comments,  If the Clippers and remove PG, I still think many would consider the Clips a title contender.  If you take away Kawai and leave PG, I would argue that most people wouldn't put them in that category.  That is the difference.  That is the distinction.  It is not saying that PG is not a great player, but he isn't THE guy, but more a complementary piece of a great team, which could be filled by many players in the league.  To be clear, he can win you some games on his own, but not win a championship.  

It's a fair opinion, but put PG as the Guy on that Toronto team and you don't think they could have won? I do. PG, Siakim, Lowry, Gasol etc. is a team where PG would lead scoring and could've won it all.

Would you have said before last year when Kawhi was moving to that team that Toronto was going to win it all? I bet you wouldn't have.

[IU Scott]

15 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

Custom builds are exactly that.  One may not be as durable as another.  But, if it gets the job done when it counts, does it matter?

to me yes it does because if the players are healthy they should play especially on road games.  If they need to have some load management why not cut down on working out in the summer time to let your body heal from the long season.

[Zlinedavid]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

The Spurs? Wait a minute now. That was Duncan's team, but Kawhi, while playing "behind" him, obviously a multi-year allstar and budding superstar, Manu, Parker, et al, he was also surrounded by allstar-level players with a budding superstar. Let's not forget Kawhi's defensive MVPs and he was the title game MVP while playing with Duncan.

Don't forget....the first two titles they won, they had both Robinson and Duncan.  If that's not a two superstar lineup.....

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It's a fair opinion, but put PG as the Guy on that Toronto team and you don't think they could have won? I do. PG, Siakim, Lowry, Gasol etc. is a team where PG would lead scoring and could've won it all.

Would you have said before last year when Kawhi was moving to that team that Toronto was going to win it all? I bet you wouldn't have.

I don't see Toronto winning last year if PG was the guy instead of Kawai

[Zlinedavid]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

to me yes it does because if the players are healthy they should play especially on road games.  If they need to have some load management why not cut down on working out in the summer time to let your body heal from the long season.

And then you'd be saying "Back in my day, players showed up to camp in shape!"

Actual answer, because to maintain an ultra-high level of performance, long periods of downtime aren't good either. 

Footnote: I actually have no dog in this fight.  This was a situation that was just screaming for a devil's advocate though. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

9 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I don't see Toronto winning last year if PG was the guy instead of Kawai

I'm shocked. (Lol). And I remember you talking down on Kawhi, btw. You didn't think much of him. Funny how that works out.

[IU Scott]

14 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I'm shocked. (Lol). And I remember you talking down on Kawhi, btw. You didn't think much of him. Funny how that works out.

I never said anything bad about Kawai not being a great player.  I just don't like PG from the time he was not a team player when they asked him to play the 4.  Also can't stand how he was two face and said he wanted to be here at the softball game then the next day it came out he asked to be traded.

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, IUALUM03 said:

Not trying to continue this discussion, but I will throw this out there to piggy back your comments,  If the Clippers and remove PG, I still think many would consider the Clips a title contender.  If you take away Kawai and leave PG, I would argue that most people wouldn't put them in that category.  That is the difference.  That is the distinction.  It is not saying that PG is not a great player, but he isn't THE guy, but more a complementary piece of a great team, which could be filled by many players in the league.  To be clear, he can win you some games on his own, but not win a championship.  

Agree. Or even another way is that I would take this Clippers team to beat OKC if both PG and Westbrook had stayed in OKC. 

Same as you, PG is absolutely a great player, multi-time all-star, top 10 guys. I just view the top 3 (LeBron, Durant before his injury and Kawhi as a level above everyone else). Those three guys, when healthy, are the top 3, and then there's a small drop-off to Curry, and then another small drop-off to the rest of the top 10 (guys like PG, Harden, Davis, etc.). The one guy I'm not sure where he fits yet is Giannis. I haven't seen enough of him in high level playoff situations to know where he lands. 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It's a fair opinion, but put PG as the Guy on that Toronto team and you don't think they could have won? I do. PG, Siakim, Lowry, Gasol etc. is a team where PG would lead scoring and could've won it all.

Would you have said before last year when Kawhi was moving to that team that Toronto was going to win it all? I bet you wouldn't have.

I don't think Toronto wins with PG in place of Kahwi. Simply an opinion, but I just don't. Part of it is that I think Kawhi is a tick better than PG, and the other part is that Kawhi brought a mentality and confidence to Toronto. Kawhi has gone toe-to-toe with LeBron, in LeBron's prime, in the Finals and outplayed him. There's a swagger that comes with that, a confidence, etc. 

PG doesn't have that yet. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don't think Toronto wins with PG in place of Kahwi. Simply an opinion, but I just don't. Part of it is that I think Kawhi is a tick better than PG, and the other part is that Kawhi brought a mentality and confidence to Toronto. Kawhi has gone toe-to-toe with LeBron, in LeBron's prime, in the Finals and outplayed him. There's a swagger that comes with that, a confidence, etc. 

PG doesn't have that yet. 

Fair opinion -- we disagree but that's what it's all about, reasonable minds....

I agree though that Kawhi is better than PG, Kawhi, imo, is the best player in the League right now, as LeBron is starting to slow (amazing what he's doing at 35, but still).

Changing the player subject of discussion, Interested to see if Greek Freak's game grows this season, if he is good enough at his current development to lead that team to a championship. I don't think he is, I don't see any real development of his shot, which I kind of expected over the summer. His shot just doesn't look natural. Maybe it won't matter, but Toronto showed how to stop him last season, he looks susceptible to the same this season to me.

[Zlinedavid]

10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

There's a swagger that comes with that, a confidence, etc.

He was probably somewhere between PG now and Kawhi now, but to an extent, Durant probably fell into that category before he went to GS. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

Just now, Zlinedavid said:

He was probably somewhere between PG now and Kawhi now, but to an extent, Durant probably fell into that category before he went to GS. 

Interesting take Zline. Durant definitely choked several times while with the Thunder, and (along with Westbrook) most notably in failing up 3-1 against GS. His 'swag' was questionable.

[Zlinedavid]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Interesting take Zline. Durant definitely choked several times while with the Thunder, and (along with Westbrook) most notably in failing up 3-1 against GS. His 'swag' was questionable.

I think he probably was a step up from where George is now, which isn't a slight to PG.  But that edge that he seemed to play with in GS just wasn't there in OKC. 

Now that I think about it.....that's a VERY interesting scenario compared to the ones that have been discussed.  This isn't a guy that was a clear cut "alpha" (I hate that term FWIW) that joins a team that had 3 or 4 top 30-ish players and emerges with more confidence, more of an edge and would now be considered a clear cut "alpha".