NBA Thread

[Hoosierhoopster]

11 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

FWIW, I'm not seeing him get the backlash anywhere except this board. 

I haven't either. We of course have some major Pacers fans who are outspoken -- and I'm not bad-mouthing anyone, that goes with the territory of team fans -- but I just don't see the basis to really criticize Vic here. Vic couldn't have done more in his time with the Pacers to demonstrate work ethic, team building / team player, and leadership. And the Pacers are clearly heavily invested in him and his future.

Whether this injury will limit his return to true all-star status remains to be seen, but I see that as a different matter.

[IUALUM03]

Not bashing Vic on this.  They guy has to do what he feels he needs to do, but I am concerned that he is not playing to give the team less of a sample size in trying to figure out whether they offer a max deal or not based on him coming off the injury.  Going into his last year, he has been injured a majority of his time here now and I don't see the Pacers going into the end of the year with him not signed. 

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, IUALUM03 said:

Not bashing Vic on this.  They guy has to do what he feels he needs to do, but I am concerned that he is not playing to give the team less of a sample size in trying to figure out whether they offer a max deal or not based on him coming off the injury.  Going into his last year, he has been injured a majority of his time here now and I don't see the Pacers going into the end of the year with him not signed. 

Or could he be not playing so he can be healthy and play well enough to deserve a max? I don't think anyone would give him a max currently. 

[dgambill]

On 7/6/2020 at 2:11 AM, KoB2011 said:

FWIW, I'm not seeing him get the backlash anywhere except this board. 

Do you frequent any Pacer boards? I mean I think he is making a mistake but that is just me. It’s a crazy playoffs this year and who know how many chances you get to fight it out for a championship. This might be the Pacers best opportunity in an upside down year but whatever it’s his choice. I think if other teams best player decided to shut it down for the playoffs after this much time off they might sing a different toon. 
I love Vic from all he did for us and the incredible way he stepped up his game when coming over to the Pacers but I can still see this as a mistake.

[rico]

"Biggie" opts out of playing for the 'Blazers.

[FKIM01]

4 hours ago, rico said:

"Biggie" opts out of playing for the 'Blazers.

No great loss.  I do see it as foolish though.  If you're struggling to get playing time and stay in the league, now would seem to be a great opportunity to take advantage of some other players in front of you sitting it out.

[IUALUM03]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 4:46 PM, KoB2011 said:

Or could he be not playing so he can be healthy and play well enough to deserve a max? I don't think anyone would give him a max currently. 

I didn't say it was fact and I do agree with what you said about the ceiling of Pacers, etc., but I still stand by my statement.  In the end, this  is a business and it is not unrealistic to think this as much a contract related decision as it is health.  Hell, it could be both.  The fact he did come back to play before the season was over screams that there needs to be more clarification as to why he can't or doesn't want to play now versus before. I am not bashing the guy either.  In the end, whatever he wants to do is his choice, but as a fan I am confused and obviously disappointed not to see one of our best players playing.

[rico]

35 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

No great loss.  I do see it as foolish though.  If you're struggling to get playing time and stay in the league, now would seem to be a great opportunity to take advantage of some other players in front of you sitting it out.

Yeah, I view it as a bad move as well.  I guess he is going to try free agency?

[milehiiu]

SIAP

Six Former Hoosiers Will Resume Play As NBA Restarts in Orlando - Indiana University Athletics

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, IUALUM03 said:

I didn't say it was fact and I do agree with what you said about the ceiling of Pacers, etc., but I still stand by my statement.  In the end, this  is a business and it is not unrealistic to think this as much a contract related decision as it is health.  Hell, it could be both.  The fact he did come back to play before the season was over screams that there needs to be more clarification as to why he can't or doesn't want to play now versus before. I am not bashing the guy either.  In the end, whatever he wants to do is his choice, but as a fan I am confused and obviously disappointed not to see one of our best players playing.

Why would it need clarification? Yes, he played 13 times but it was in a controlled, normal NBA environment. This is not that. There could be a ton of variables that could make a player still recovering from a major injury susceptible to reinjury. Would he most likely be fine? Probably. But, it’s an uncertain, unprecedented environment and he’s a player coming off a major injury with a big contract situation coming up. 

I understand Pacer fans not liking it, but for Vic, and really the organization, this makes a tons of sense. In an uncertain environment, where a decent portion of guys are opting out for various reasons, sit out to ensure your health, continue rehab, and be ready for next season and that next contract. 

[dwtaylor1055]

Statistics show that post lockout injuries were much higher, you will see a similar case here in Orlando.  Do you want to risk Oladipo's future next year(sure he could get hurt opening night) or even longer down the road for a bubble event in Orlando?  Honestly the pacers chances would be the 2nd rd in the bubble, if you add in a hurt Lamb maybe a game 7 in the 2nd rd. 

 

THis move is for both the team and Vics best interest for today and the future.  This will benefit Aaron Holiday for the future as a primary contributor. 

[landrus13]

1 hour ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Statistics show that post lockout injuries were much higher, you will see a similar case here in Orlando.  Do you want to risk Oladipo's future next year(sure he could get hurt opening night) or even longer down the road for a bubble event in Orlando?  Honestly the pacers chances would be the 2nd rd in the bubble, if you add in a hurt Lamb maybe a game 7 in the 2nd rd. 

 

THis move is for both the team and Vics best interest for today and the future.  This will benefit Aaron Holiday for the future as a primary contributor. 

Does anyone know if he had been playing basketball at all before the last couple weeks. I know its been reported that a lot of NBA players didn't have access to any basketball courts or anything of the sort. So I'm not sure if he was in that boat or not. That could be a huge implication as well...

[milehiiu]

1 hour ago, landrus13 said:

Does anyone know if he had been playing basketball at all before the last couple weeks. I know its been reported that a lot of NBA players didn't have access to any basketball courts or anything of the sort. So I'm not sure if he was in that boat or not. That could be a huge implication as well...

Vic's case is a little different. In that his physical therapist has said the type of injury Vic suffered is very rare.  And has advised Vic to not get back to any physical activity yet.  Therefore the reason, Vic will travel with the team. And not get involved.  Knowing Vic.... as we all do. This has do be killing him

[landrus13]

1 hour ago, milehiiu said:

Vic's case is a little different. In that his physical therapist has said the type of injury Vic suffered is very rare.  And has advised Vic to not get back to any physical activity yet.  Therefore the reason, Vic will travel with the team. And not get involved.  Knowing Vic.... as we all do. This has do be killing him

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. I wish he was gonna be playing in Orlando but I understand why he isn't. Got a big contract year coming up and needs to be fully healthy to ball out and get the most money he can while he's young. Hopefully its with the Pacers.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, milehiiu said:

Vic's case is a little different. In that his physical therapist has said the type of injury Vic suffered is very rare.  And has advised Vic to not get back to any physical activity yet.  Therefore the reason, Vic will travel with the team. And not get involved.  Knowing Vic.... as we all do. This has do be killing him

Did he advise him not to play for a couple months already during the regular season? So it was safe to play during the regular season like 3 months ago but now after 3 more months to rest his injury it isn’t safe?? Sorry if I am not convinced that is a truthful statement. 
 

As far as the Pacers chances...this is the exact thing that would give the Pacers a much better chance to win a championship. It’s super low given their market size and limitations but put them into an unconventional environment with the chances some teams lose players to Covid etc and this is probably the best scenario you could hope for. The biggest asset the Pacers have is incredible team chemistry, hard work ethic, toughness, and togetherness. No individual stars or agendas...well we didn’t use to have that...maybe I spoke to soon. Anyways this is exactly the scenario those strengths shine even brighter. Anyways it is what it is. Goes to show Another group I can’t identify with. You can add generationally wealthy millionaire athletes along to the 18 year old recruits we discuss so much lol. One thing I agree is it’s his right...and more power to him...but it doesn’t feel right from a leadership position nor public perception. 

[milehiiu]

3 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Did he advise him not to play for a couple months already during the regular season? So it was safe to play during the regular season like 3 months ago but now after 3 more months to rest his injury it isn’t safe?? Sorry if I am not convinced that is a truthful statement. 
 

 

No idea on the time frame.  Just reporting what I was told. Remember this was his physical therapist.  Not his doctor. 

[dgambill]

12 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

No idea on the time frame.  Just reporting what I was told. Remember this was his physical therapist.  Not his doctor. 

No worries I didn’t mean truthful from you just truthful from the PR machine. I love Vic...but he is getting really close to PG status in Indy....and not in a good way.

[dwtaylor1055]

13 hours ago, dgambill said:

No worries I didn’t mean truthful from you just truthful from the PR machine. I love Vic...but he is getting really close to PG status in Indy....and not in a good way.

To me the PG and Vic situation are different, however, could approach the same status come 21-22 offseason.  IMO here are the two differences below:

PG(this is not a stab at PG as I am a big fan of his) -  PG was going to be the next big thing in Indiana and for the long term success of the Pacers.  He went toe to toe with Lebron and Wade during the playoffs in 11-12 when we lost in the 2nd rd and when we met them in the ECFs in 12-13 and 13-14.  Yes PG had George Hill, Lance Stephenson, David West and Roy Hibbert as his primary guys to contribute and cannot forget Luis Scola as a solid rotational guy).  Hill was not a true point guard, rather a SG playing out of position but was still never the less solid(unless it was in the 4th and he was at the charity stripe, he'd hit one of two every time lol).  Lance is lance and had his good and bad days(antics sometime got the best of him especially when he guarded Lebron), David West was a baaaaaad man and loved his game, his 12 footer just shot fad away reminded me a little of Dirk. Roy was a top shot blocker and rim protector in the NBA at his current time but he fell off the face of the earth rather quickly.  Yes there will always be a debate about the Granger for Turner trade and maybe this was the start of the fallout between PG and the Pacers idk.  PG was winning and winning big some would say during the 3 year stretch of 11-14 until his injury.  Could the front office of helped PG more, yes in my eyes.  Did PG force his way out, yes he did in my eyes as he felt the team wasn't constructed better and with how they let West walk this also put a sour taste in PGs mouth).  There was uncertainty after his injury and his ego got a little large.  And for the new article about Anthony Davis coming to Indy, well not sure that would have ever happened cause he was still under contract with NOLA and what would we have given up in return, 5 1st rd picks and say David West?  No way. 

 

Vic - Questions surrounded what Vic could be all throughout his career prior to arriving in Indy.  When he arrived, he put forth the work, effort and turned out to be what everyone thought he could be prior to his injury.  He helped formed a bond amongst the team and the chemistry shot out of the ceiling.  He became THE guy and became an All Star.  Now his supporting cast his first year consisted of Collison, Bojan, Thad, Myles and Sabonis.  This is a very solid core BUT this current roster is even stronger.  Brogdon(yes injury prone but best PG to be in Indy in quite some time), TJ Warren(guy can flat out score and not afraid to speak his feelings aka Jimmy Butler), Sabonis(all star as we all know) and Myles(top 5 rim protector in the league).  The talent is there for Vic IF he is healthy when he returns for the 20-21 season and that is a big if given the fact that Vic's injury is rare.  Yes breaking a leg is a big injury, however, IMO Vic's injury is harder to come back from.  Vic's last game before the NBA came to a halt looked as if he was right back to his old self. 

 

The NBA, especially for small market teams is all about risks and chances.  I am on the side of play it safe and have Vic return for the 20-21 season and with a healthy Brogdon, Warren, Sabonis, Myles and with the improvement of Aaron Holiday and hopefully a returning Justin Holiday this team becomes even better. Give me a top 6 depth chart of Brogdon/Vic/Warren/Sabonis/Myles/Holiday over Hill/PG/Lance/West/Hibbert/Scola any day of the week.  Yes times have changed and Hibbert wouldn't make it in todays game IMO but the roster construction in my eyes is much better today surrounding our star player with better talent then back when PG was here.  Not a knock on the team when PG was here, but in my eyes, more talent is presently on the Pacers roster. 

 

So I say all the above to say this, if the two main things Vic is after come free agency is top money and winning big, the Pacers can win big(health can derail anything) and can throw money at Vic.  They would have all their top money in Brogdon($20.5 mil), Vic($27.5 Mil), Sabonis($18.5 mil), Myles($17.5 mil), Warren($11.7 Mil) and Lamb($10.5 mil) puts us at approx. $105 mil if Vic was to take around $27.5 mil.  You could flip say Myles and say Lamb(yes hes hurt but very affordable to a team looking for salary dump) and find some additional rotation players to improve the bench and still have a top four of Brogdon/Vic/Warren/Sabonis which in my eyes is very solid still.   Salary cap for 2020 is projected to be $115 mil with Luxury tax of $139 mil.  This is a very very good top 6 group not to mention Aaron Holiday(expecting a big step up come Orlando with Vic out) on a rookie contract still and say adding Justin Holiday back to the mix that is a very solid group of 8 guys(Coach plays a 9 man rotation). 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by dwtaylor1055

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

To me the PG and Vic situation are different, however, could approach the same status come 21-22 offseason.  IMO here are the two differences below:

PG(this is not a stab at PG as I am a big fan of his) -  PG was going to be the next big thing in Indiana and for the long term success of the Pacers.  He went toe to toe with Lebron and Wade during the playoffs in 11-12 when we lost in the 2nd rd and when we met them in the ECFs in 12-13 and 13-14.  Yes PG had George Hill, Lance Stephenson, David West and Roy Hibbert as his primary guys to contribute and cannot forget Luis Scola as a solid rotational guy).  Hill was not a true point guard, rather a SG playing out of position but was still never the less solid(unless it was in the 4th and he was at the charity stripe, he'd hit one of two every time lol).  Lance is lance and had his good and bad days(antics sometime got the best of him especially when he guarded Lebron), David West was a baaaaaad man and loved his game, his 12 footer just shot fad away reminded me a little of Dirk. Roy was a top shot blocker and rim protector in the NBA at his current time but he fell off the face of the earth rather quickly.  Yes there will always be a debate about the Granger for Turner trade and maybe this was the start of the fallout between PG and the Pacers idk.  PG was winning and winning big some would say during the 3 year stretch of 11-14 until his injury.  Could the front office of helped PG more, yes in my eyes.  Did PG force his way out, yes he did in my eyes as he felt the team wasn't constructed better and with how they let West walk this also put a sour taste in PGs mouth).  There was uncertainty after his injury and his ego got a little large.  And for the new article about Anthony Davis coming to Indy, well not sure that would have ever happened cause he was still under contract with NOLA and what would we have given up in return, 5 1st rd picks and say David West?  No way. 

 

Vic - Questions surrounded what Vic could be all throughout his career prior to arriving in Indy.  When he arrived, he put forth the work, effort and turned out to be what everyone thought he could be prior to his injury.  He helped formed a bond amongst the team and the chemistry shot out of the ceiling.  He became THE guy and became an All Star.  Now his supporting cast his first year consisted of Collison, Bojan, Thad, Myles and Sabonis.  This is a very solid core BUT this current roster is even stronger.  Brogdon(yes injury prone but best PG to be in Indy in quite some time), TJ Warren(guy can flat out score and not afraid to speak his feelings aka Jimmy Butler), Sabonis(all star as we all know) and Myles(top 5 rim protector in the league).  The talent is there for Vic IF he is healthy when he returns for the 20-21 season and that is a big if given the fact that Vic's injury is rare.  Yes breaking a leg is a big injury, however, IMO Vic's injury is harder to come back from.  Vic's last game before the NBA came to a halt looked as if he was right back to his old self. 

 

The NBA, especially for small market teams is all about risks and chances.  I am on the side of play it safe and have Vic return for the 20-21 season and with a healthy Brogdon, Warren, Sabonis, Myles and with the improvement of Aaron Holiday and hopefully a returning Justin Holiday this team becomes even better. Give me a top 6 depth chart of Brogdon/Vic/Warren/Sabonis/Myles/Holiday over Hill/PG/Lance/West/Hibbert/Scola any day of the week.  Yes times have changed and Hibbert wouldn't make it in todays game IMO but the roster construction in my eyes is much better today surrounding our star player with better talent then back when PG was here.  Not a knock on the team when PG was here, but in my eyes, more talent is presently on the Pacers roster. 

 

So I say all the above to say this, if the two main things Vic is after come free agency is top money and winning big, the Pacers can win big(health can derail anything) and can throw money at Vic.  They would have all their top money in Brogdon($20.5 mil), Vic($27.5 Mil), Sabonis($18.5 mil), Myles($17.5 mil), Warren($11.7 Mil) and Lamb($10.5 mil) puts us at approx. $105 mil if Vic was to take around $27.5 mil.  You could flip say Myles and say Lamb(yes hes hurt but very affordable to a team looking for salary dump) and find some additional rotation players to improve the bench and still have a top four of Brogdon/Vic/Warren/Sabonis which in my eyes is very solid still.   Salary cap for 2020 is projected to be $115 mil with Luxury tax of $139 mil.  This is a very very good top 6 group not to mention Aaron Holiday(expecting a big step up come Orlando with Vic out) on a rookie contract still and say adding Justin Holiday back to the mix that is a very solid group of 8 guys(Coach plays a 9 man rotation). 

 

 

Nice post. Not long enough, but pretty good. 😁

We'll just have to wait and see if Vic gets his full game back, agree the team/organization should (and seems like it is) take the cautious approach and work him back on his and his doctors' schedule, is there really a reason to rush right now other than fan demands/interest in seeing what the P's can do right away? The other contrast to the PG situation was Bird's pushing PG to play PF, clearly out of position, right on his return from a lost year to what could have been a career-ending injury. That was a major mistake by Bird and the organization, and of course it derailed the relationship with PG. (Not to rehash all of that discussion, but there was a very good, insightful article on why PG wanted to return to LA to play where his roots and family are, all the hate on him is seriously misplaced but not surprising for fans who love their team.)

I don't know if the roster is better constructed now then it was with the PG/Hill/West/Hibbert years -- re Lance's role vs. who the P's have now supports that imo, but I don't think Vic is on the level PG was/is (not far off but not a superstar), and West was at the top of his game then. If Vic returns to full health/game, he may take it to that next level -- imo, that's what the P's need, a legit superstar, or 2 if possible, surrounded by that very solid group. That's the difficulty though, it's really hard for mid-market teams to get and keep a legitimate superstar, and it's the rare exception (e.g., Pistons) for a team to be champion-contending without a true superstar. Vic's the best bet for the P's right now, and the P's know it.  

[Seeking6]

23 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

No great loss.  I do see it as foolish though.  If you're struggling to get playing time and stay in the league, now would seem to be a great opportunity to take advantage of some other players in front of you sitting it out.

Former 1st round pick who has started 3 games since being drafted 3 years ago is sitting out? Yep...not the best of moves showing GM's you'll do whatever it takes. Caleb should make his passport is active.

[dwtaylor1055]

29 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Nice post. Not long enough, but pretty good. 😁

We'll just have to wait and see if Vic gets his full game back, agree the team/organization should (and seems like it is) take the cautious approach and work him back on his and his doctors' schedule, is there really a reason to rush right now other than fan demands/interest in seeing what the P's can do right away? The other contrast to the PG situation was Bird's pushing PG to play PF, clearly out of position, right on his return from a lost year to what could have been a career-ending injury. That was a major mistake by Bird and the organization, and of course it derailed the relationship with PG. (Not to rehash all of that discussion, but there was a very good, insightful article on why PG wanted to return to LA to play where his roots and family are, all the hate on him is seriously misplaced but not surprising for fans who love their team.)

I don't know if the roster is better constructed now then it was with the PG/Hill/West/Hibbert years -- re Lance's role vs. who the P's have now supports that imo, but I don't think Vic is on the level PG was/is (not far off but not a superstar), and West was at the top of his game then. If Vic returns to full health/game, he may take it to that next level -- imo, that's what the P's need, a legit superstar, or 2 if possible, surrounded by that very solid group. That's the difficulty though, it's really hard for mid-market teams to get and keep a legitimate superstar, and it's the rare exception (e.g., Pistons) for a team to be champion-contending without a true superstar. Vic's the best bet for the P's right now, and the P's know it.  

I felt if I made it longer I would of lost my mind lol

 

Agree, PG being pressured to play the PF spot was a mistake(he's not built to be a PF or play that position).  I feared all along that at some point PG would find his way back to his roots, lots of players do it, it just stings a little more then they leave your favorite team.  I agree about the PG and Vic comparison, Vic is not on the same level as PG is, however, if he gets back to what he was pre injury, he would get close but in my eyes still a little behind.  All small to mid market teams windows are very small, say 2 years at most and we saw that with PG and the two ECF appearances.  If all returns for next season as expected, the next two or three years the P's could make some noise(advancement past rd 2 in the playoffs).   

 

I think the P's know it and surrounding Vic with a very solid group is their best bet and at the same time hoping say Aaron takes the next step and even Goga(which I think will turn into a  very solid role player at a minimum). 

[dwtaylor1055]

Victor will continue to practice in 5 on 5 in Orlando with the team for the remainder of the bubble season.  The belief right now according to sources close to the situation believe that if the Pacers make it past the first round that Victor will return in limited capacity. 

[dgambill]

29 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Victor will continue to practice in 5 on 5 in Orlando with the team for the remainder of the bubble season.  The belief right now according to sources close to the situation believe that if the Pacers make it past the first round that Victor will return in limited capacity. 

I'm just so confused with the Vic thing...but whatever. I want him to be the old Vic...and I want him to remain in Indy. Not sure of either of those things happening right now...time will tell.

[dwtaylor1055]

23 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I'm just so confused with the Vic thing...but whatever. I want him to be the old Vic...and I want him to remain in Indy. Not sure of either of those things happening right now...time will tell.

Yeah this is very confusing and the true info probably will not come out for quite some time. 

[IU Scott]

Listen to the Podcast of the Brink yesterday and they had Scott Agnes a Pacer reporter on the show.  He said behind the scenes that the Pacers are getting a little upset with some of the things that Vic has done over the last year and half. He did not go into detail but I think some has to do with Vic and his handlers are doing everything on their own and not consulting with the Pacers on any of his decisions.