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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Your view here is slanted. First, fwiw, on PG you just ignored that Kawhi specifically demanded PG to the Clips as his requirement for joining the Clips. No, PG is not LBJ, no one is, but no also, arguably the best player in the League demanded PG, and only PG (no other named star), be on the team for him to go to that team. That should tell you something.

Trying to find where he specifically asked for PG. I know his signing with the Clips was allegedly based on them getting a 2nd star to pair with him, and PG was the one they were able to get, but wasn't sure if he specifically asked for him or just a star. I do remember reading a behind the scenes article around that time that may have the answers, but was unable to locate it. Do you have any articles/links that come to mind?

On the subject of PG, not glowing reviews coming out about him...

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-nba-trade-rumors-la-clippers-preparing-a-trade-of-paul-george-to-brooklyn-nets/

Josh McIntyre from Fox Sports explained, “At the exit interviews, and this is just what I’ve heard, Paul George did not get rave reviews from his teammates.”

https://clutchpoints.com/clippers-rumors-paul-george-is-not-respected-la-locker-room/

 

 

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3 minutes ago, cybergates said:

Trying to find where he specifically asked for PG. I know his signing with the Clips was allegedly based on them getting a 2nd star to pair with him, and PG was the one they were able to get, but wasn't sure if he specifically asked for him or just a star. I do remember reading a behind the scenes article around that time that may have the answers, but was unable to locate it. Do you have any articles/links that come to mind?

On the subject of PG, not glowing reviews coming out about him...

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-nba-trade-rumors-la-clippers-preparing-a-trade-of-paul-george-to-brooklyn-nets/

Josh McIntyre from Fox Sports explained, “At the exit interviews, and this is just what I’ve heard, Paul George did not get rave reviews from his teammates.”

https://clutchpoints.com/clippers-rumors-paul-george-is-not-respected-la-locker-room/

 

 

It was repeatedly reported and confirmed, including by Kawhi, that he specifically requested PG. There are multiple stories covering it, including from the side of the both the Clips and Thunder as to how it went down. Couldn't care less what McIntyre says "just what I've heard." That stuff is bunk. The essentially sports article you link is based on McIntyre, and is purely speculative.

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

San Antonio did it mainly through the draft and got the #1 pick twice.  They also were lucky that both times that there was a once in a generation talent wiating there to be picked.

Scott, San Antonio made the playoff for something like 20 straight years. They started with the Duncan draft pick. That was the start. Duncan was drafted in 1997.

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Just now, Hoosierhoopster said:

It was repeatedly reported and confirmed, including by Kawhi, that he specifically requested PG. There are multiple stories covering it, including from the side of the both the Clips and Thunder as to how it went down. Couldn't care less what McIntyre says "just what I've heard." That stuff is bunk. The essentially sports article you link is based on McIntyre, and is purely speculative.

I did find this in my search...

After clandestine attempts to recruit, first, Jimmy Butler and then Kevin Durant to join him on the Los Angeles Clippers, Leonard was a driving force in persuading Paul George to abruptly request a trade from the Oklahoma City Thunder to the Clippers, according to three people familiar with the negotiations who were not authorized to discuss them publicly.

 

Leonard informed the Clippers heading into free agency that joining them was his preference, according to a person familiar with his stance who was not authorized to discuss it publicly — but only if they could pair him with another All-Star. If not, Leonard was prepared to stay with the Raptors, who could offer a five-year deal worth $190 million, or to perhaps accept the Lakers’ invitation to form the league’s starriest trio alongside LeBron James and Anthony Davis.

Leonard and his representatives also recruited Butler and then Durant to join him on the Clippers, according to three people familiar with the talks. But when Butler went ahead with his plans to push for a sign-and-trade deal from Philadelphia to Miami — and with Durant determined to form his own marquee partnership on the Nets with Kyrie Irving — Leonard spent the past week successfully persuading George to request a trade away from the mercurial point guard Russell Westbrook and the Thunder.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/06/sports/basketball/kawhi-leonard-paul-george-clippers.html

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just the facts of the conversation. "San Antonio Spurs fans have enjoyed winning seasons, a whopping 27 of the past 28 years. The lone exception being the 96-97 Spurs who went 20-62. The Spurs would play without an injured David Robinson for most of the year. ". 

https://airalamo.com/2017/07/25/san-antonio-spurs-season-review-1996-97/

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15 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Lol that was even earlier and they had just bombed when, in 97 -- more than 20 years ago -- Duncan was drafted. That's kind of the point Scott.

The only reason they tanked that one year was Robinson was out for the year.  The main point is that the smaller markets have to be a little lucky and draft well.  San Antonio was able to get the #1 draft pick twice and wa slucky that players like Robinson and duncan was there to draft.  Just like the Colts in the NFL had all of that sucess under Manning because they had a bad year to get him.  Then Manning goes down the exact year that Luck was coming out.  Instead it could be a year where like Baker Mayfield was the top pick in the draft.

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44 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The only reason they tanked that one year was Robinson was out for the year.  The main point is that the smaller markets have to be a little lucky and draft well.  San Antonio was able to get the #1 draft pick twice and wa slucky that players like Robinson and duncan was there to draft.  Just like the Colts in the NFL had all of that sucess under Manning because they had a bad year to get him.  Then Manning goes down the exact year that Luck was coming out.  Instead it could be a year where like Baker Mayfield was the top pick in the draft.

You Are Out Baker Mayfield GIF by NFL - Find & Share on GIPHY

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57 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The only reason they tanked that one year was Robinson was out for the year.  The main point is that the smaller markets have to be a little lucky and draft well.  San Antonio was able to get the #1 draft pick twice and wa slucky that players like Robinson and duncan was there to draft.  Just like the Colts in the NFL had all of that sucess under Manning because they had a bad year to get him.  Then Manning goes down the exact year that Luck was coming out.  Instead it could be a year where like Baker Mayfield was the top pick in the draft.

And then they went on to 20 or so years of straight playoffs including after both Robinson's and Duncan's respective retirements. Sometimes I think talking to you is the equivalent of banging my head against a wall. YES YOU NEED TO DRAFT WELL - AND YES YOU NEED TO THEN ACTUALLY MANAGE YOUR TEAM COMPETENTLY INCLUDING BUILDING AROUND THE DRAFTED PLAYERS WITH OTHER STAR-LEVEL AND COMPLIMENTARY PLAYERS.

The Spurs brought in developed guys like Manu (who was drafted in the 50s for crying out loud) and got the P's to draft Kawhi for them, and got Parker (late 20s in the draft) etc.. etc. etc. Compare the Pacers and their management decisions, Scott.

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It was repeatedly reported and confirmed, including by Kawhi, that he specifically requested PG. There are multiple stories covering it, including from the side of the both the Clips and Thunder as to how it went down. Couldn't care less what McIntyre says "just what I've heard." That stuff is bunk. The essentially sports article you link is based on McIntyre, and is purely speculative.

Must...........defend.........Paul Geo....gasp.....rge.........until........death....

Value-Pricing” of Drugs and Pharmaceutical Innovation – The Health Care Blog

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44 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

And then they went on to 20 or so years of straight playoffs including after both Robinson's and Duncan's respective retirements. Sometimes I think talking to you is the equivalent of banging my head against a wall. YES YOU NEED TO DRAFT WELL - AND YES YOU NEED TO THEN ACTUALLY MANAGE YOUR TEAM COMPETENTLY INCLUDING BUILDING AROUND THE DRAFTED PLAYERS WITH OTHER STAR-LEVEL AND COMPLIMENTARY PLAYERS.

The Spurs brought in developed guys like Manu (who was drafted in the 50s for crying out loud) and got the P's to draft Kawhi for them, and got Parker (late 20s in the draft) etc.. etc. etc. Compare the Pacers and their management decisions, Scott.

The thing we are saying is that today it will be harder for small market teams to keep all of those players together.  They al were on the same team for over 12+ years and it helps with developing your team chemistry.  Will next see with Gannis and see what he will do in the next year or so.  I hope he stays but I see it more than likely you will see him somewhere else like Miami.

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51 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The thing we are saying is that today it will be harder for small market teams to keep all of those players together.  They al were on the same team for over 12+ years and it helps with developing your team chemistry.  Will next see with Gannis and see what he will do in the next year or so.  I hope he stays but I see it more than likely you will see him somewhere else like Miami.

That falls into the "that depends" category for me. Dirk never left Dallas. He had multiple opportunities to do so (like Reggie before him in Indy, like Duncan with the Spurs). Guys like Dame, in Portland, another small market, have made it clear that have no interest in leaving their teams to team up with other stars. (Though, interestingly, Dame also recruited PG to join them in Portland, lol.)

On the other hand, look at Unibrow. He's about to win a championship, by teaming up with LBJ, after spending years with the Hornets/Pelicans. Another small market team, but one that failed to surround with enough talent to win, so he left, to join LBJ and win a championship. And of course before him Durant left the Thunder, teaming up with the team that knocked them out the prior year, Golden State (a chump move in my book), so he could win a championship, and then he did.

It depends on the players you're talking about. It depends on the organization and whether they're building right around the player.

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Dallas has not been an attractive FA location for max guys.   I don't consider them big market.  Maybe they are.   I'm curious if players will want to play with Luka though. Giannas come on down.   Dirk never considering leaving, I don't think. I'm glad Luka and KP were on the team last year to see how Dirk was treated around the league and especially in Dallas by the Mavs and their fans.  I bought a 41-21-1 Tee. 

KP seemingly did not want to stay in big market New York.  THJ mentioned how happy he was to get away from that team.  I don't blame players for wanting to move on from poorly managed teams be it in NY or Charlotte or to go shopping for better situations. 

Maybe VO is just positioning for contract negotiations.  If Pacers really offered 4 years / 80 mil that seems like a slap. 

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7 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Your view here is slanted. First, fwiw, on PG you just ignored that Kawhi specifically demanded PG to the Clips as his requirement for joining the Clips. No, PG is not LBJ, no one is, but no also, arguably the best player in the League demanded PG, and only PG (no other named star), be on the team for him to go to that team. That should tell you something.

Agree about Walsh generally, he was overall quite good. Man he made a mistake in going to the Knicks. But second, on the landscape changing, yes it changed to give more power to players over the years, but that started a long time ago. Really the Celtics putting together the team with Rondo, Pierce, Garnett et al. Was that guys wanting to play with their friends? No, it was stars being put together to create a Big 3. It's not just a bunch of buddies teaming up, it's the Big 3 (or Big 2 -- the Lakers) approach -- building a team around 2-3 mega stars. It's not just a bunch of friends, buddy buddy stuff. Calling players entitled and buddy buddy just misses the point man. That's just not it.

Third, the small market thing only goes so far. San Antonio is a small market. The Bucks, small market. Frankly Golden State is basically a small market team. You absolutely need good draft picks to start -- Golden State killed it, the Spurs killed it -- but you also need management to build around the stars that you picked well in the draft. Again, Golden State and San Antonio killed it. Their management is top flight. The Bucks got enough around Greek Freak to have the best overall reg season record, but the holes in their depth of elite players showed in the playoffs. They're still a work in progress and they may very well lose Giannis.

The Pacers? they did well with getting Vic and Sabonis, but now once again they're already losing a star in Vic. That's not the way you build a real contender. Management absolutely should be questioned. For that matter, they stuck with a mediocre coach until just now. Now they've fired him. Hopefully that's a step in the right direction.

Maybe it’s slanted...might be because I took the rose colored glasses off. If you don’t think the players have changed from the Birds, Magic’s, and Jordan eras and before to what we have now...so be it. Not going to argue because we will never agree.

Oh I admit the draft is intimately important...we haven’t done well at all. SA has done wonderful...especially identifying diamonds in the rough and identifying international talent. GS took huge risks in their drafts and they basically all paid off. Draymond a powder keg but his ability to play the 5 and be like a point forward, Steph who was small and had numerous injury concerns eventually worked out but many thought his slight build and bad ankles almost ended his career. The real key was signing Iggy imo. We will see if Milwaulkie can do anything with Gianis. I think he will stay. Seems foreign born players aren’t as focused on the limelight as much as a winning organization. 
As far as PG goes..I can’t change your mind on him and I’m not going to try. I never heard he was Khawis first choice...news to me. If he was what you think he is then why would the Pacers not keep him...if he is a superstar you take the chance and keep them and throw the moon and stars at him. Same with OKC. Both have now moved on from him. Now we hear LA is having some buyers remorse...I’m not surprised. A team is made up of more than just a stat line. It’s clear there is a lot under the surface. Imo there have always been empty stars in the NBA....guys that fill a stat sheet, make big money, but don’t equate to winning time. He is on that list for me. When he leads a team to a championship you can tell me to eat crow...until then I’ll stick to my opinion as slanted as it is.

We do agree the Pacers need to change it up. I don’t think it’s Pritchards fault. Simon has limited him. Doesn’t want to spend doesn’t want to go through a rebuild because he doesn’t want empty seats...so we will win just enough games to get into the playoffs and milk the fans but never give them a chip.

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25 minutes ago, rico said:

 @IU Scott

I thought you were "old school?"  Hell, when I first started watching the NBA there were no small market teams.  It was a bunch of teams that changed cities every year.

Well I think like an old school guy even if I am not as old as some of you are LOL!  I figured when you started watching they had to stop play to take the ball out of the basket.

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This is about having a well run organization, not small market vs. big market. You have to have smart, stable ownership that hires smart basketball people and allows them to do their jobs, etc. 

The Knicks are in a massive market and have been a joke for 20 years. The Bulls have largely been a joke for 20 years outside of the short Rose/Butler run. The Clippers were a joke for 40 years. The Celtics were awful from post-Bird until about 2002  

San Antonio was a contender for 30 years. OKC was a contender for a decade. The Pacers, while having some issues recently, have been a competitive playoff team for most of 30 years. 

Yes, being lucky in the draft helps, of course, but you have to be smart around that. If San Antonio doesn’t bring in Parker and Ginobili, which were super smart moves, Duncan probably leaves for Orlando which he almost did.

Its why Dirk stayed in Dallas, Cuban was committed to winning. It’s why Anthony Davis left New Orleans, the franchise is a joke. 

Success in the NBA is about have a smart, stable front office with an ownership group that will invest in winners and let the basketball people do their jobs, and with anything a little luck thrown in too. 

The Lakers are the only team in the league that can literally do everything wrong and still stumble into a title team. 

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