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1 minute ago, BGleas said:

Agree, would have been crazy for the Pacers to do that. Same reason the Celtics let him walk (though they may s&t with Charlotte). 

Bottom line here is, Hayward went for the pay day over winning and over going home. 

Yep. I don't want to make any wild accusations but seems like he just chose $ which kind of hurts. He and Cody can share stories I guess while they struggle to get to 35 wins.

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10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Doesn't seem like it was about giving in to Boston, seems like it was more about getting outbid by Charlotte (not suggesting Indy should have matched Charlotte'sbid, but that seems to be what happened here). 

 

Sorry we just don't know that is what happened. He very well could have agreed to 4 years and $25M with the Pacers and he only looked elsewhere because of Ainge. 

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12 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Sorry we just don't know that is what happened. He very well could have agreed to 4 years and $25M with the Pacers and he only looked elsewhere because of Ainge. 

Or he was disrespected that Indiana wouldn't poney up 4/120 so he shifted to Charlotte? We can both make assumptions, but you seem to really, really want this to be pinned on Ainge when it's looking like that probably wasn't the case. 

Charlotte was always listed as one of the suitors if Hayward opted out, and has been interested in him for years. They even signed him several years ago, but Utah matched. 

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9 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Or he was disrespected that Indiana wouldn't poney up 4/120 so he shifted to Charlotte? We can both make assumptions, but you seem to really, really want this to be pinned on Ainge when it's looking like that probably wasn't the case. 

Charlotte was always listed as one of the suitors if Hayward opted out, and has been interested in him for years. They even signed him several years ago, but Utah matched. 

And you seem to really, really not want to admit Ainge just lost Hayward for nothing because he asked for something he and no leverage to ask for. 

It's really hard it say the Pacers did anything wrong by not wanting to overpay either in money or in a trade. The Celtics, on the other hand just LOST andasset and got nothing. So sure, they may still have option, but it all will involve having to give up another asset they'd have retained otherwise if they had gotten Turner. 

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Just now, KoB2011 said:

And you seem to really, really not want to admit Ainge just lost Hayward for nothing because he asked for something he and no leverage to ask for. 

Not really. I've been pretty balanced in this discussion. Mentioning numerous times that all parties had leverage and weaknesses, that all parties should look out for their own best interest, etc., etc. I mentioned numerous times that Indiana should not give up Warren or Oladipo along with Turner, but that there is a meet in the middle point.

If Indiana was hellbent on only including McDermott along with Turner and nothing else, and not giving Hayward what Charlotte offerend, then that is on them. 

You seem to have a deep dislike for Ainge and have wanted to bash him the entire time.

The Celtics were never going to pay Hayward north of $100M and apparently the Pacers weren't willing to go to $120M. Smart moves by both franchises in my opinion. 

Ainge's responsibility is to the Boston Celtics, not to Gordon Hayward or the Indiana Pacers. If Ainge doesn't want Doug McDermott he should negotiate for something else, as it seems that is what he did. In the meantime Hayward went out and got a better deal. 

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Just now, BGleas said:

Not really. I've been pretty balanced in this discussion. Mentioning numerous times that all parties had leverage and weaknesses, that all parties should look out for their own best interest, etc., etc. I mentioned numerous times that Indiana should not give up Warren or Oladipo along with Turner, but that there is a meet in the middle point.

If Indiana was hellbent on only including McDermott along with Turner and nothing else, and not giving Hayward what Charlotte offerend, then that is on them. 

You seem to have a deep dislike for Ainge and have wanted to bash him the entire time.

The Celtics were never going to pay Hayward north of $100M and apparently the Pacers weren't willing to go to $120M. Smart moves by both franchises in my opinion. 

Ainge's responsibility is to the Boston Celtics, not to Gordon Hayward or the Indiana Pacers. If Ainge doesn't want Doug McDermott he should negotiate for something else, as it seems that is what he did. In the meantime Hayward went out and got a better deal. 

I don't disagree if he didn't want McDermott he should negotiate for something else, but from a negotiation perspective he went nuclear and blew it up. 

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Just now, KoB2011 said:

I don't disagree if he didn't want McDermott he should negotiate for something else, but from a negotiation perspective he went nuclear and blew it up. 

Yeah, you don't know that at all. You really think Hayward was going to give Indiana a $20M hometown discount? I understand if you're upset that Indiana missed out on Hayward, he would have been a big pickup for them, but to lay the blame all on Ainge is ridiculous. 

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@BGleas, at the risk of beating a dead horse here, would it still not make better sense to take Turner and McDermott than let Hayward just walk?  I'll admit to being a novice here, but it seems that Boston has even less leverage with Charlotte now than they would have with Indiana?  Not debating here...just trying to become a little more educated.

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3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Yeah, you don't know that at all. You really think Hayward was going to give Indiana a $20M hometown discount? I understand if you're upset that Indiana missed out on Hayward, he would have been a big pickup for them, but to lay the blame all on Ainge is ridiculous. 

I do know that Ainge went nuclear with the counter and there has been no reports or any progress since he did that. 

What we don't know is what type of discount Hayward was willing to give the team where he grew up and has built a house so he can raise his family. That could have also been a factor, for sure, but we know Ainge went nuclear. That's the only thing we actually know unless you're saying that report wasn't true. 

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Just now, FKIM01 said:

@BGleas, at the risk of beating a dead horse here, would it still not make better sense to take Turner and McDermott than let Hayward just walk?  I'll admit to being a novice here, but it seems that Boston has even less leverage with Charlotte now than they would have with Indiana?  Not debating here...just trying to become a little more educated.

Not necessarily. Maybe Ainge and Stevens aren't huge fans of Turner and also didn't want McDermott, so that offer wasn't too attractive for them? I don't know that, but just bringing up a possible scenario. 

Turner is an athletic young player who brings some really good things (good athlete, weakside defender and shotblocker, with some range), but at the same time he regressed last season, is not a good PnR defender and shoots 3's at volume for a big. 

Maybe Ainge and Stevens aren't as high on Turner as others, so thought if we're going to do this then we need more. That is a completely reasonable position to take. The Celtics have Daniel Theis who is a great PnR defender, not as dynamic a shot blocker as Turner and has the same struggles defending the larger bigs, but maybe Ainge thought we have a similar guy in Theis, Robert Williams is developing well and brings that long, athletic shot blocking that Turner would have, and then we can go get Aaron Baynes as another big. 

For the Celtics side, it comes down to what they valued and it reads to me that they weren't ever as high on Turner as some others wanted them to be. 

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4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I do know that Ainge went nuclear with the counter and there has been no reports or any progress since he did that. 

What we don't know is what type of discount Hayward was willing to give the team where he grew up and has built a house so he can raise his family. That could have also been a factor, for sure, but we know Ainge went nuclear. That's the only thing we actually know unless you're saying that report wasn't true. 

That's you putting your seemingly hatred for Ainge spin on it. "Nuclear" is your word to frame it negatively so the Pacers are absolved of any responsibility.  

If the Pacers were unwilling to negotiate beyond the initial offer and ante up for Hayward, then that is squarely on them. If they said "take it or leave it" on the Turner/McDermott offer, then that is squarely on them. 

You can't make Danny Ainge, the Celtics ownership and Brad Stevens want Myles Turner and Doug McDermott just because that's what you want. You can say the Celtics are the losers, but it's not everyday that Indiana actually gets a free agent of Hayward's caliber that wants to go there and it seems they refused to negotiate. 

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I doubt anyone will agree with me but I don’t think Hayward is worth $30 M per year for four years.  What confirms it is that the Hornets paid that.  They are one of the most bumbling franchises in all of North American sports.

As for Hayward, take into account his age and history, and that’s an ill advised contract from the Hornets perspective, IMO.  We won’t need to look at that in two years and use hindsight.  We can see it now, today.

He is a nice player but he’s gone into folk hero status.   

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Just now, BobSaccamanno said:

I doubt anyone will agree with me but I don’t think Hayward is worth $30 M per year for four years.  What confirms it is that the Hornets paid that.  They are one of the most bumbling franchises in all of North American sports.

As for Hayward, take into account his age and history, and that’s an ill advised contract from the Hornets perspective, IMO.  We won’t need to look at that in two years and use hindsight.  We can see it now, today.

He is a nice player but he’s gone into folk hero status.   

You'll get no argument from me on that.  In the near term with the revenue hits coming, it seems even dumber in the eyes of an amateur NBA watcher.

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At the end of the day, my real takeaway is that Danny Ainge doesn't really love Myles Turner, and Indiana didn't love Hayward enough to give up more. IMO that is the crux of this.

Ainge doesn't feel Myles Turner is a guy they need or fits what they're doing. He wouldn't have pushed for more to the point of losing Hayward for nothing if he felt Turner was what would put them over the top.  Conversely, if Indiana was in love with Hayward they would have brought more to the table. 

The piece we really don't know is Hayward's role. I know he wanted Indiana, but it seems to me he was more than happy to take Charlotte's extra $20M. Boston and Indiana would have gotten a deal done if they wanted too. There is pressure agents can put on teams, etc., to almost force these things to happen, but it seems to me Hayward wasn't too upset to reel in Charlotte's offer and take it. 

 

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6 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I doubt anyone will agree with me but I don’t think Hayward is worth $30 M per year for four years.  What confirms it is that the Hornets paid that.  They are one of the most bumbling franchises in all of North American sports.

As for Hayward, take into account his age and history, and that’s an ill advised contract from the Hornets perspective, IMO.  We won’t need to look at that in two years and use hindsight.  We can see it now, today.

He is a nice player but he’s gone into folk hero status.   

I think most everyone except Michael Jordan agrees with you. Neither Boston nor Indiana was ever going to pay Hayward that much. That's why I think blaming Ainge for this doesn't add up. 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Also, maybe it wasn't the Celtics that "botched" this, maybe Indiana wouldn't ante up to Hayward at the level that Charlotte did?

Charlotte just gave Hayward $120 million over 4 years, Indiana would have had to at least match that. The Celtics may have just been waiting to see who Hayward chose to see who the sign and trade would be with. 

I love Indiana but I'd gladly live in north carolina for 120 million.  

Pacers aren't paying that for a guy that was the 4th option on a team that couldn't get to the finals.  And they shouldn't.

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4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think most everyone except Michael Jordan agrees with you. Neither Boston nor Indiana was ever going to pay Hayward that much. That's why I think blaming Ainge for this doesn't add up. 

Ainge is probably relieved.  Hayward's injuries have held your franchise back, imo.  

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