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2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Hold the phone the Pacers signed Amida Brehma to an undisclosed deal.  This deal will put the Pacers over the hump LOL!

Literally googling the name.  Please hold for my comments.  I'll be right back lol

Edit: I remember him.  26 year old.  I can't find nba stats for him.  Looks like a g league lifer

 

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Brogdon nailed the welcome press conference this morning.  Wants to make everyone around him better, Brogdon mentioned how he wanted to play for the Indiana Pacers, wanted to play for Nate, wants to m

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58 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

He turned down more money to pay for the Clippers though. Harrell took a low deal to leave the Clippers, too. I wonder what is causing guys to not want to play with the Clippers?

 

Honestly where are you going with this? Lately it’s like you’re looking to poke to cause trouble? Harrell left to chase a ring, which is kind of lame, especially going to the next door Lakers. Smacks of a Durant-like move. Obviously there are locker room issues. Obviously they fell apart. If this is a back/door jab at PG it’s lame. 

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2 hours ago, BGleas said:

The gap between OG and Brown offensively is infinitely greater than the gap between OG and Brown defensively. 

Brown is the second best defender on the Celtics after Smart, and the Celtics are one of the top defensive teams in the league. When Smart was coming off the bench Brown always started on the opponents best player. 

Honestly, HH this is silly Brown is an all-star level player, OG isn't close to that conversation. 

Brown is the better player by far. I love OG, every GM in the league would laugh and hangup if you tried to offer OG straight up for Brown. 

I would say you have a heavy dose of IU colored glasses on this one. 

Geez, pretty aggressive there Gleas. Brown is the better player, I said he’s really good and a border line all star - you then say he is an all star level player - since I don’t disagree what’s the point? And then you reply about GM’s laughing? Ok.  You’re over-valuing Brown’s D. He’s not on the level you’re backing. That’s my point. OG frankly is close, he is in the mold of a Kawhi defensively, if he keeps improving and stays healthy he could be one of the best wing defenders in the League.  He is an outstanding lock down defender, that’s not rose colored glasses it’s just fact. 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Celtics signed Tristan Thompson and Jeff Teague. Helps with several issues. Thompson is a double-double guy who can defend true bigs and provides toughness and leadership, while Teague gives us a backup point guard and scorer off the bench. 

I don't love Teague, but options were limited and he's upgrade over Brad Wanamaker. I'll take those two. 

Tristan is a good sign. He will battle bigs and is an efficient scorer and elite rebounder..but he will not stretch the floor. 
 

Funny is OGs stats basically mirror Jaylons first 3 years....if not better. Brown definitely stepped out this year and upped his offensive game...he can put it on the floor and create a better but OG is the much more efficient player. Be interesting if Toronto entrusts him with a bigger part of their offense. Browns turnovers went way up with having the ball in his hands. Guys efficiency typically go down the more their usage goes up so no doubt Brown had a great year but will he now be able to become as efficient with the ball as he was before...let’s see. It’s a lot easier to avg more points when your taking more shots. Maybe OG won’t be able to take on a bigger role but I think his projection is very similar to Browns...and his defense is elite. Can truly guard 1-4.

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9 hours ago, dgambill said:

Tristan is a good sign. He will battle bigs and is an efficient scorer and elite rebounder..but he will not stretch the floor. 
 

Funny is OGs stats basically mirror Jaylons first 3 years....if not better. Brown definitely stepped out this year and upped his offensive game...he can put it on the floor and create a better but OG is the much more efficient player. Be interesting if Toronto entrusts him with a bigger part of their offense. Browns turnovers went way up with having the ball in his hands. Guys efficiency typically go down the more their usage goes up so no doubt Brown had a great year but will he now be able to become as efficient with the ball as he was before...let’s see. It’s a lot easier to avg more points when your taking more shots. Maybe OG won’t be able to take on a bigger role but I think his projection is very similar to Browns...and his defense is elite. Can truly guard 1-4.

Your second to ast line about projection is fair. Brown is what OG would hope to become if he develops, but to compare them as if they're similar players right now is unfair to Brown. 

Brown has already realized that potential of taking on a bigger role on a contending team and he excelled and still has room to grow.  

Offensively they're miles apart. There's a huge difference in the NBA between being a guy that averages 10ppg off of others creating and being a 20ppg guy that is relied on to create offense. 

Brown has made that leap and done it on a contending team, OG has not and that is a massive leap in the NBA.

Defensively OG is elite, I completely get that, but Brown also guards 1-4 and is the second best defender on a consistently top 10 defensive team. I believe he ranked top 10 last year in defensive work load which factors in the level of player you defend into the metric. 

OG is a good player who I'd love to have on my team, but Brown is on a different level currently.  

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Ok so let's take this a couple steps further. Miles apart?

Fouls could enter an appearance here lol because even a simple look at the metrics show that's just not the case. If you look a little deeper here Gleas, Brown has been featured offensively, OG has not, that drives the point difference you're focused on. Here's just a few of the stats reflecting OG frankly has been better than Brown, offensively, in several respects. All of the below are 2019-20, from stats reference.

Per 100 possessions:

OG - Offensive rating (ORtg) 114, Brown 110. (DRtg OG 104 to Brown's 108). OG clearly better in both categories. 

OG - 3P% 39, Brown 38. 2p% OG 58, Brown 54.

ORB OG 1.8 to Brown's 1.5. 

But -- more on this below - FGA (attempts per game per 100) Brown 22.1 to OG's 13. Of course Brown has more points. 

Adjusted shooting:

OG EFg 58 to Brown's 55. OG's 3PAr 40 to Brown's 38. 

Advanced

OG's Vorp 1.7 to Brown's 1.4.

WS Iwin shares) OG's 5.7 to Brown's 4.9. But Brown gets OWS 2.3 to OG's 2.1.

Could keep going here but instead of just focusing on who had more points consider the why --

Offensive usage and shots;

USG% Brown's 24,7 to OG's 14.3. Yes, Brown scores more, because he takes way more shots on way more usage. 

Listen, I said I think Brown is better offensively. I think so, generally, because has been able to carve out a major scoring role on a good Boston team, and again he played at an almost all star level. But you are really being dismissive of OG's offensive game, and you're doing that based on how many points he scored without looking at the fact that he shoots better, on any measure, both from 2 and from 3, he scores more efficiently, he just shoots a lot less because Toronto -- which obviously also is a very good team with its own stars -- looks to get most of its offense from its guards -- lowry and Fleet score the most on that team -- followed by Siakim. OG is now the 4th leading scorer on that team. That's hardly chopped liver, and if he was emphasized the way Brown is in Boston, he would score a lot more, any GM looking at him would consider that, it's clear he can score at a high level and against the elite teams, and it's clear his D - his primary usage on the that team, is elite.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anunoog01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownja02.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Ok so let's take this a couple steps further. Miles apart?

Fouls could enter an appearance here lol because even a simple look at the metrics show that's just not the case. If you look a little deeper here Gleas, Brown has been featured offensively, OG has not, that drives the point difference you're focused on. Here's just a few of the stats reflecting OG frankly has been better than Brown, offensively, in several respects. All of the below are 2019-20, from stats reference.

Per 100 possessions:

OG - Offensive rating (ORtg) 114, Brown 110. (DRtg OG 104 to Brown's 108). OG clearly better in both categories. 

OG - 3P% 39, Brown 38. 2p% OG 58, Brown 54.

ORB OG 1.8 to Brown's 1.5. 

But -- more on this below - FGA (attempts per game per 100) Brown 22.1 to OG's 13. Of course Brown has more points. 

Adjusted shooting:

OG EFg 58 to Brown's 55. OG's 3PAr 40 to Brown's 38. 

Advanced

OG's Vorp 1.7 to Brown's 1.4.

WS Iwin shares) OG's 5.7 to Brown's 4.9. But Brown gets OWS 2.3 to OG's 2.1.

Could keep going here but instead of just focusing on who had more points consider the why --

Offensive usage and shots;

USG% Brown's 24,7 to OG's 14.3. Yes, Brown scores more, because he takes way more shots on way more usage. 

Listen, I said I think Brown is better offensively. I think so, generally, because has been able to carve out a major scoring role on a good Boston team, and again he played at an almost all star level. But you are really being dismissive of OG's offensive game, and you're doing that based on how many points he scored without looking at the fact that he shoots better, on any measure, both from 2 and from 3, he scores more efficiently, he just shoots a lot less because Toronto -- which obviously also is a very good team with its own stars -- looks to get most of its offense from its guards -- lowry and Fleet score the most on that team -- followed by Siakim. OG is now the 4th leading scorer on that team. That's hardly chopped liver, and if he was emphasized the way Brown is in Boston, he would score a lot more, any GM looking at him would consider that, it's clear he can score at a high level and against the elite teams, and it's clear his D - his primary usage on the that team, is elite.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anunoog01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownja02.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

To support @BGleas usage always causes efficiency to drop....unless you are Lebron James the more that is asked of you the harder it is. Brown does create offense much much better and much more is asked of him. Do I think OG could score 20 a game too...yes if that was his role but could he score 20 as efficiently as Brown did this past year....no not yet...he is still somewhat limited offensively. He is really good at what they ask of him but to take that leap he has to be able to create his own offense. My point was OGs first 3 years to Browns he actually was as good if not better (with an injury)....but yes he needs to make that leap like Brown...and how much more efficient can Brown be at his current usage...not sure...we can only wait and see. I do think OG is ready for the same Breakout that Siakam made.

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The big difference here is that OG has quite a leap to make offensively to be considered a star player. He's a guy that spots up in the corner to hit open 3's that are created by others. He scores off streaking to the basket off others creating. The hardest leap in the NBA is going from 4th/5th option offensively to a top option on your team that is relied upon to create offense, not just captialize off of others creating.

Jaylen Brown has already made that leap and he's done it on a contending team. I understand OG's season last year was derailed by injuries, but then we also need to recognize that Jaylen Brown's 3rd season was derailed by the fiasco that was Kyrie Irving and the Celtics forcing a not yet healthy Gordon Hayward into the lineup when he wasn't ready. 

Jaylen's 3rd year would have been closer to what we saw this season without that trainwreck of a Celtics season. 

OG has make a huge leap offensively in this discussion and it's the hardest leap to make for an NBA player. Jaylen has improved his shooting from all levels and his handles tremendously, OG needs to do that. Maybe he can, but even going into next season he's at best Toronto's 4th option with Lowery, Siakim and Van Vleet all back. 

The better comparison between these two teams is comparing Brown to Siakim, who he drastically outplayed in their playoff series. 

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OG is not some spot up corner 3 guy, that’s not his game. I agree he hasn’t shot at a high enough volume — behind Lowry, Fleet and Siakim - to know if he can make that “leap” to all star level offensive player, but it’s clearly inaccurate to dismiss his offensive game. He’s very good, and consistently, offensively, to go with his elite D, he’s a true 2-way high level player, and teams and GM’s see that. Will be interesting to see where Toronto and OG go from here. 

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19 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

OG is not some spot up corner 3 guy, that’s not his game. I agree he hasn’t shot at a high enough volume — behind Lowry, Fleet and Siakim - to know if he can make that “leap” to all star level offensive player, but it’s clearly inaccurate to dismiss his offensive game. He’s very good, and consistently, offensively, to go with his elite D, he’s a true 2-way high level player, and teams and GM’s see that. Will be interesting to see where Toronto and OG go from here. 

Yes, at this point OG is a spot up 3 guy and a cutter who scores off of others creating. He's an 11ppg guy that gets baskets off of other guys. The Raptors rarely run offense through him. They run their offense through Lowry, Van Vleet and Siakim, and even Gasol. 

That's not a criticism of OG, he's very good in his role for Toronto. But, Jaylen Brown is a 20ppg scorer on a contending team who is relied upon to create offense along with Tatum and Kemba. Brown has already made the leap we hope OG can make. 

OG is great and I'd love to have him on my team, as I love having Jaylen Brown on my team,, but in terms of comparing the two Brown is what OG would hope to become. 

None of this is criticizing OG, again I'd love to have him on the Celtics, but he's not on Brown's level yet. 

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27 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Source: Kings' Bogdan Bogdanovic drawing interest from Pacers, Hawks | RSN (nbcsports.com)

Interesting if the Pacers could do a sign and trade for Bogdanovic

 

NBA free agency notes on Fred VanVleet, Jae Crowder and more (hoopshype.com)

Odd that it said the Pacers looked into a sign and trade for Van fleet

Looks like Bogdanovic signed with Atlanta. Kings can match. 

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2 hours ago, BGleas said:

Yes, at this point OG is a spot up 3 guy and a cutter who scores off of others creating. He's an 11ppg guy that gets baskets off of other guys. The Raptors rarely run offense through him. They run their offense through Lowry, Van Vleet and Siakim, and even Gasol. 

That's not a criticism of OG, he's very good in his role for Toronto. But, Jaylen Brown is a 20ppg scorer on a contending team who is relied upon to create offense along with Tatum and Kemba. Brown has already made the leap we hope OG can make. 

OG is great and I'd love to have him on my team, as I love having Jaylen Brown on my team,, but in terms of comparing the two Brown is what OG would hope to become. 

None of this is criticizing OG, again I'd love to have him on the Celtics, but he's not on Brown's level yet. 

Gleas, no, OG is not a spot up shooter, that tells me you’re not following his game. 
I already walked you through OG’s offensive stats many of which are better than Brown’s, your answer is Brown is a 20 ppg scorer (that’s just this season) while ignoring his significant usage difference. 

What was Kawhi’s scoring average after year 3? 

It was 12.8. He was around the 4th option as an offensive scorer on that team. Sound familiar? OG’s game is remarkably similar. No of course he’s not Kawhi, but he is very much in the mold of Kawhi, a lock  down defender who can shut down about anyone and he can easily score 20 plus when called upon to do so, just pull up some of his games and you’ll see that, and much like Kawhi he scores efficiently, more efficiently than Brown. 
 

Year 4 Kawhi averaged 16.5, year 5 21.2, and so on. If you don’t think OG can  average 20 you’re really not following his game at all. Their respective roles are different because of who they are playing with and the constructed roster and who the coach is. You are really touting Brown really based on what he did just this past season. Your view in comparing them is skewed and you keep ignoring OG’s better offensively stats - many - across the board.
Can he score that efficiently if he shoots more, from 13 shots (that is not a small number) to Brown’s 22 a game? We don’t know really one way or the other, but your dismissing his offense is to ignore what he’s shown. You started this discussion saying GM’s would laugh, no they wouldn’t, OG’s promise is already widely recognized, we don’t know if he will be a 20-plus scorer but frankly there’s no reason to believe he can’t 

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8 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Gleas, no, OG is not a spot up shooter, that tells me you’re not following his game. 
I already walked you through OG’s offensive stats many of which are better than Brown’s, your answer is Brown is a 20 ppg scorer (that’s just this season) while ignoring his significant usage difference. 

What was Kawhi’s scoring average after year 3? 

It was 12.8. He was around the 4th option as an offensive scorer on that team. Sound familiar? OG’s game is remarkably similar. No of course he’s not Kawhi, but he is very much in the mold of Kawhi, a lock  down defender who can shut down about anyone and he can easily score 20 plus when called upon to do so, just pull up some of his games and you’ll see that, and much like Kawhi he scores efficiently, more efficiently than Brown. 
 

Year 4 Kawhi averaged 16.5, year 5 21.2, and so on. If you don’t think OG can  average 20 you’re really not following his game at all. Their respective roles are different because of who they are playing with and the constructed roster and who the coach is. You are really touting Brown really based on what he did just this past season. Your view in comparing them is skewed and you keep ignoring OG’s better offensively stats - many - across the board.
Can he score that efficiently if he shoots more, from 13 shots (that is not a small number) to Brown’s 22 a game? We don’t know really one way or the other, but your dismissing his offense is to ignore what he’s shown. You started this discussion saying GM’s would laugh, no they wouldn’t, OG’s promise is already widely recognized, we don’t know if he will be a 20-plus scorer but frankly there’s no reason to believe he can’t 

Stop it, you know I watched every game of the Celtics-Raptors series. You know I watch a ton of NBA. In that series OG spent a ton of time spotting up in the corner as Toronto ran their offense through Lowry, Van Vleet and Siakim. 

OG is not an offense creator, yet. If you think he is, then you're not watching. He absolutely, 100% spots up and scores off slashing in their offense. He is not a facilitator of offense yet, Jaylen Brown is. 

Efficiency numbers are great, but until usage rises for OG, its not all that significant. The guy averages 11ppg scoring as a 4th/5th option on his team. 

The biggest leap in the NBA is going from a 10-15ppg secondary option to a legit 20ppg scorer that carries an offensive load, and Jaylen Brown has made that leap, OG hasn't. 

OG is excellent in his role, but he is not yet close to being in the Pascal Siakim, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum conversation. 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Stop it, you know I watched every game of the Celtics-Raptors series. You know I watch a ton of NBA. In that series OG spent a ton of time spotting up in the corner as Toronto ran their offense through Lowry, Van Vleet and Siakim. 

OG is not an offense creator, yet. If you think he is, then you're not watching. He absolutely, 100% spots up and scores off slashing in their offense. He is not a facilitator of offense yet, Jaylen Brown is. 

Efficiency numbers are great, but until usage rises for OG, its not all that significant. The guy averages 11ppg scoring as a 4th/5th option on his team. 

The biggest leap in the NBA is going from a 10-15ppg secondary option to a legit 20ppg scorer that carries an offensive load, and Jaylen Brown has made that leap, OG hasn't. 

OG is excellent in his role, but he is not yet close to being in the Pascal Siakim, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum conversation. 

Stop it? Wow Gleas. I’ve watched OG create off the dribble multiple times, from the wing. Give me a break. You just keep ignoring that exactly the same things you’re saying about OG after his third year could be said about Kawhi, would you have said then that Brown is better than Kawhi? OG is taking 13 shots, that’s hardly insignificant, any GM looking at that sees he s efficiency. I never said OG has made the “leap” to a 20 point scorer, I said we don’t know, but everything points to his ability to do that and all you do is ignore and downplay it, I get the impression you just can’t admit what the numbers show, that surprises me man, thanks for the stop it though 

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6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Stop it? Wow Gleas. I’ve watched OG create off the dribble multiple times, from the wing. Give me a break. You just keep ignoring that exactly the same things you’re saying about OG after his third year could be said about Kawhi, would you have said then that Brown is better than Kawhi? OG is taking 13 shots, that’s hardly insignificant, any GM looking at that sees he s efficiency. I never said OG has made the “leap” to a 20 point scorer, I said we don’t know, but everything points to his ability to do that and all you do is ignore and downplay it, I get the impression you just can’t admit what the numbers show, that surprises me man, thanks for the stop it though 

You know I've followed his game. You know I've seen him play a ton and watch as much NBA as anyone on this board. 

I would never say Jaylen Brown is as good as Kawhi, just like I would never say OG is as good as Brown currently. 

Do Brown and OG both have characteristics and similarities of Kawhi's game? Sure, they both do, but Brown would have to take another big leap to get there and OG would have to take a massive leap. Tons of guys have potential and signs they could be great, realizing it is the hard part. 

Once again, OG's is an excellent player and I'd love my team to have him. He plays his role really well. He's an excellent defender and efficient in his role offensively. I haven't said any different. 

But, he is currently a role player. He's a 4th/5th offensive option on his team. Maybe with Ibaka and Gasol moving on and Lowry aging Toronto will change their style and he'll get more opportunities to create. 

But at this point his efficiency is great and his 13 shots per game are great, but he's not a creator, he largely scores and gets those shots off of Toronto's play makers creating. 

I dont even know what we're talking about anymore. I was discussing Boston vs Toronto and how Boston arguably, with Lowry aging, has the two best players between the two teams. You brought OG out of nowhere, who again while a really good young player with a bright future, isn't in that conversation. 

I'm a big OG fan, just being realistic about where he currently is in the NBA. 

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2 hours ago, BGleas said:

You know I've followed his game. You know I've seen him play a ton and watch as much NBA as anyone on this board. 

I would never say Jaylen Brown is as good as Kawhi, just like I would never say OG is as good as Brown currently. 

Do Brown and OG both have characteristics and similarities of Kawhi's game? Sure, they both do, but Brown would have to take another big leap to get there and OG would have to take a massive leap. Tons of guys have potential and signs they could be great, realizing it is the hard part. 

Once again, OG's is an excellent player and I'd love my team to have him. He plays his role really well. He's an excellent defender and efficient in his role offensively. I haven't said any different. 

But, he is currently a role player. He's a 4th/5th offensive option on his team. Maybe with Ibaka and Gasol moving on and Lowry aging Toronto will change their style and he'll get more opportunities to create. 

But at this point his efficiency is great and his 13 shots per game are great, but he's not a creator, he largely scores and gets those shots off of Toronto's play makers creating. 

I dont even know what we're talking about anymore. I was discussing Boston vs Toronto and how Boston arguably, with Lowry aging, has the two best players between the two teams. You brought OG out of nowhere, who again while a really good young player with a bright future, isn't in that conversation. 

I'm a big OG fan, just being realistic about where he currently is in the NBA. 

Hmm, I didn’t bring OG out of nowhere but it’s all good. We apparently see OG’s upside and current level of play differently. That’s ok. I wouldn’t put Brown though anywhere remotely in the Kawhi comparison, they are just different players and I don’t see Brown having anywhere near that defensive potential, just a different style of player. He’s better offfensively than OG at this stage, never said otherwise, but also recognize based on his stats with what his usage is that OG is fully capable of being a 20 ppg player, and he is the better defender, I really don’t think that’s fairly arguable. 
On Boston v Toronto,C’s have the clear advantage right now.

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