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1 hour ago, rico said:

That is total BS.  You and your contraction thoughts.  The American population is growing, or have you noticed?  More people=more talent out there.

Not to mention the 107 international players on opening night rosters including 3 players who made the all NBA first team.  Joker, Luka and the Greek.  That's 7 teams right tthere.

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8 minutes ago, rico said:

Whoa.  There are more people...they are just having fewer kids.

Yes...and as it is going given our quickly aging population because we are having fewer and fewer kids we are not "growing" we are on the verge of actually losing population (unless we use immigration). It's an ongoing problem for many of the worlds developed countries. Heck China has even moved off the 1 child policy because they were facing a looming crisis. It's a whole subject for another time but we simply aren't having enough kids to pay into the social safety net systems to cover the aging population. The govt should be promoting strong families and incentivize tax breaks for child care if they want to be serious about addressing the problem they have created.

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20 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Yes...and as it is going given our quickly aging population because we are having fewer and fewer kids we are not "growing" we are on the verge of actually losing population (unless we use immigration). It's an ongoing problem for many of the worlds developed countries. Heck China has even moved off the 1 child policy because they were facing a looming crisis. It's a whole subject for another time but we simply aren't having enough kids to pay into the social safety net systems to cover the aging population. The govt should be promoting strong families and incentivize tax breaks for child care if they want to be serious about addressing the problem they have created.

That is a topic for another thread in a different forum.  My original point was that Scott is always speaking of contraction rather than expansion.  The NBA product is as strong as it has ever been.

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1 minute ago, rico said:

That is a topic for another thread in a different forum.  My original point was that Scott is always speaking of contraction rather than expansion.  The NBA product is as strong as it has ever been.

Yes agreed. TV market is expanding and going up, franchise values going through the roof. It is indeed doing very well on that front!

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8 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

But expansion dilutes the talent even more than it is already is.

I think there is two different topics. NBA product value and then product value (performance) of actually on the floor. I'm sure @BGleas could offer up a better argument but scoring and shooting ability (talent) has gone through the roof in the past 10 years. There are more talent then ever in the nba...basically if you compare the bottom half of rosters now vs 30 years ago. Everyone coming into the league now is much much more advanced then what we had back then. I know its a different game but I think the talent level is fine in the nba....my issue is trying to make sure teams that acquire it can keep it if they want to...but again..that might not be an expansion issue..just a nature of the beast thing. Not sure if contraction or expansion would slow or stop the shift of the best talent congregating into a few teams.

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4 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I think there is two different topics. NBA product value and then product value (performance) of actually on the floor. I'm sure @BGleas could offer up a better argument but scoring and shooting ability (talent) has gone through the roof in the past 10 years. There are more talent then ever in the nba...basically if you compare the bottom half of rosters now vs 30 years ago. Everyone coming into the league now is much much more advanced then what we had back then. I know its a different game but I think the talent level is fine in the nba....my issue is trying to make sure teams that acquire it can keep it if they want to...but again..they might not be an expansion issue..just a nature of the beast thing.

If the NBA(or MLB for that matter) could somehow "mimic" the NFL then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

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6 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I think there is two different topics. NBA product value and then product value (performance) of actually on the floor. I'm sure @BGleas could offer up a better argument but scoring and shooting ability (talent) has gone through the roof in the past 10 years. There are more talent then ever in the nba...basically if you compare the bottom half of rosters now vs 30 years ago. Everyone coming into the league now is much much more advanced then what we had back then. I know its a different game but I think the talent level is fine in the nba....my issue is trying to make sure teams that acquire it can keep it if they want to...but again..that might not be an expansion issue..just a nature of the beast thing. Not sure if contraction or expansion would slow or stop the shift of the best talent congregating into a few teams.

I guess I disagree because I look at players who play the majority of the minutes and see players today that wouldn't have seen big minutes back then.  I look at the Hawks and maybe one player would have a chance to start for the Lakers or Celtics of the 80's.  That is how I compare the eras and not the bottom of the roster.

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7 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I guess I disagree because I look at players who play the majority of the minutes and see players today that wouldn't have seen big minutes back then.  I look at the Hawks and maybe one player would have a chance to start for the Lakers or Celtics of the 80's.  That is how I compare the eras and not the bottom of the roster.

You need glasses...

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6 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I guess I disagree because I look at players who play the majority of the minutes and see players today that wouldn't have seen big minutes back then.  I look at the Hawks and maybe one player would have a chance to start for the Lakers or Celtics of the 80's.  That is how I compare the eras and not the bottom of the roster.

Well what about the other 22 teams in the NBA in the 80's lol. That's a pretty narrow view considering those are two of probably the top 10 teams in league history basically. I mean take the 85-86 Pacers for example......I'm not sure a single one of those guys could start on the 2020 Pacers who missed the playoffs lol. I think that is just a narrow view...but I'm not going to argue...it's your opinion.

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3 minutes ago, rico said:

You need glasses...

Well it is obvious we have different opinions on this.  Who would start over Jabaar, Magic and Worthy.  Also for that Lakers team Byron Scott was a perfect 2 guard.  That team was about getting the rebound and getting out on the fast break by filling the lanes.

Who would start over Bird, McHale and Parrish and Johnson and Ainge was a great back court. Back then it was about putting pieces together over just putting the most talent on the court.

 

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8 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Well what about the other 22 teams in the NBA in the 80's lol. That's a pretty narrow view considering those are two of probably the top 10 teams in league history basically. I mean take the 85-86 Pacers for example......I'm not sure a single one of those guys could start on the 2020 Pacers who missed the playoffs lol. I think that is just a narrow view...but I'm not going to argue...it's your opinion.

I would say players like Tisdale, Williams and Kellogg ate better than any Pacer today. 

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Just now, IU Scott said:

Well it is obvious we have different opinions on this.  Who would start over Jabaar, Magic and Worthy.  Also for that Lakers team Byron Scott was a perfect 2 guard.  That team was about getting the rebound and getting out on the fast break by filling the lanes.

Who would start over Bird, McHale and Parrish and Johnson and Ainge was a great back court. Back then it was about putting pieces together over just putting the most talent on the court.

 

No my friend...just no.  

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3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I would say players like Tisdale, Williams and Kellogg ate better than any Pacer today. 

Ok...that's your opinion. Not going to fight you on it. IMO teams like them and some of those Cavalier, Spurs, Kings, Clippers teams were just God awful but again...I don't think we are convincing one another differently.

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11 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Well it is obvious we have different opinions on this.  Who would start over Jabaar, Magic and Worthy.  Also for that Lakers team Byron Scott was a perfect 2 guard.  That team was about getting the rebound and getting out on the fast break by filling the lanes.

Who would start over Bird, McHale and Parrish and Johnson and Ainge was a great back court. Back then it was about putting pieces together over just putting the most talent on the court.

 

Again...and I'll leave it at this...quit focusing on two of the all time greatest teams ever assembled....and compare the marjority of the rest of the nba rosters. Yes each team had a couple stars on them but top to bottom the modern nba teams have way way way better talent/skilled players. 

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I love the 80s Lakers vs Celtics, but when you look at the moves that someone like Kevin Heurter does that basically no one on the either of those teams could do (they weren't prevalent/"invented" back then), you can see that the players today are more advanced. However, those teams were very good at what they did and didn't "need" those moves. Part of the reason why IMO it is impossible to compare teams/players from different eras objectively.

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4 minutes ago, cybergates said:

I love the 80s Lakers vs Celtics, but when you look at the moves that someone like Kevin Heurter does that basically no one on the either of those teams could do (they weren't prevalent/"invented" back then), you can see that the players today are more advanced. However, those teams were very good at what they did and didn't "need" those moves. Part of the reason why IMO it is impossible to compare teams/players from different eras objectively.

So are you saying if Michael Jordan knew what a "Euro step" was he would avg 40?? 😄

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23 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

He would average 50 with the defense that is played today

Probably...MJ is one of those special cases that would thrive in any era. I think he could avg just about whatever he wanted. That said anything over 40 and it might have a counter productive effect on his team...as other players need to get in rhythm and flow of the game etc. I think Jordan wanting to win would tone down his scoring to make sure his team was successful....but when he needed it....sky would be the limit for sure.

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3 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Probably...MJ is one of those special cases that would thrive in any era. I think he could avg just about whatever he wanted. That said anything over 40 and it might have a counter productive effect on his team...as other players need to get in rhythm and flow of the game etc. I think Jordan wanting to win would tone down his scoring to make sure his team was successful....but when he needed it....sky would be the limit for sure.

That is what happened early in his career where he scored 63 in a playoff game against the Celtics but lost.  He didn't start winning until they got Pippen and Grant

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