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3 hours ago, IU Scott said:

I guess I disagree because I look at players who play the majority of the minutes and see players today that wouldn't have seen big minutes back then.  I look at the Hawks and maybe one player would have a chance to start for the Lakers or Celtics of the 80's.  That is how I compare the eras and not the bottom of the roster.

Comparing a 5 seed to two all time great dynasties makes so much sense...

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Because of the conversation about the 90s that was just happening, it seems relevant to bring up Jeff Hornacek. That dude started for the Suns then the Jazz and was an above average shooting guard at that time - he'd be lucky to be in the rotation for any of the elite teams today. 

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10 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Because of the conversation about the 90s that was just happening, it seems relevant to bring up Jeff Hornacek. That dude started for the Suns then the Jazz and was an above average shooting guard at that time - he'd be lucky to be in the rotation for any of the elite teams today. 

I agree with the larger point, but I think Hornacek is a bad example. He was a really good player, an all star once. He would start for almost any team left. 

 

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1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

Because of the conversation about the 90s that was just happening, it seems relevant to bring up Jeff Hornacek. That dude started for the Suns then the Jazz and was an above average shooting guard at that time - he'd be lucky to be in the rotation for any of the elite teams today. 

He is a lot better than Huerter

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2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

He is a lot better than Huerter

Agree. Look at last years Finals, he's better then Calwell-Pope who started for the Lakers and he's better then both Jae Crowder and Duncan Robinson who started for Miami. 

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OK take out the Lakers and Celtics and look at a team like the 95 Magic and with Shaq, Hardaway, Scott and Anderson and would take that foursome over anything we have in the playoffs right now

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

OK take out the Lakers and Celtics and look at a team like the 95 Magic and with Shaq, Hardaway, Scott and Anderson and would take that foursome over anything we have in the playoffs right now

Uh, I agree but that doesn't really support your argument. That Magic team was post-expansion. 

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2 hours ago, BGleas said:

I agree with the larger point, but I think Hornacek is a bad example. He was a really good player, an all star once. He would start for almost any team left. 

 

I know he was really good, but I don't think he would be now. That was my point. 

The dude was an unathletic 6'3, 190 lb shooting guard. That's not a starter in the NBA today. You guys said he was better than Duncan Robinson and I just can't agree. Duncan Robinson has 5 or 6 inches on him and is just as good of a shooter. Hornacek put up better numbers, I get that, but what in his skillset says he can do that today?

Is he better than Jae Crowder? He's a better shooter but he isn't providing the level of toughness or defense Crowder does. 

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I just hate when people say that guys back then couldn't compete today.  You act like the guys back then we're all slow stiff white guys with no athletic ability.  There were plenty of athletic players back then who could compete today.  If today's players are so much better athletes then why can't they play every game and not worry about load management.

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8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I know he was really good, but I don't think he would be now. That was my point. 

The dude was an unathletic 6'3, 190 lb shooting guard. That's not a starter in the NBA today. You guys said he was better than Duncan Robinson and I just can't agree. Duncan Robinson has 5 or 6 inches on him and is just as good of a shooter. Hornacek put up better numbers, I get that, but what in his skillset says he can do that today?

Is he better than Jae Crowder? He's a better shooter but he isn't providing the level of toughness or defense Crowder does. 

We typically agree on most things, but in the times we've disagreed i don't think I've ever disagreed with you more than I do now. 

Jae Crowder isn't remotely close to as talented as Jeff Hornacek was. Hornacek was miles ahead offensively, and would often defend the opponents best guard/wing for the Jazz. He spent most of the time defending Jordan when they played the Bulls. 

Hornacek was a far better offensive player than Robinson is at this point, and defensively he was far, far better as well. 

Same goes for KCP who started for the Lakers last year as well as Caruso who was key for them off the bench. Hornacek was way, way better then them. 

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25 minutes ago, BGleas said:

We typically agree on most things, but in the times we've disagreed i don't think I've ever disagreed with you more than I do now. 

Jae Crowder isn't remotely close to as talented as Jeff Hornacek was. Hornacek was miles ahead offensively, and would often defend the opponents best guard/wing for the Jazz. He spent most of the time defending Jordan when they played the Bulls. 

Hornacek was a far better offensive player than Robinson is at this point, and defensively he was far, far better as well. 

Same goes for KCP who started for the Lakers last year as well as Caruso who was key for them off the bench. Hornacek was way, way better then them. 

He was a 6'3 player who primarily scored with jumpers. I don't think there is a single guy in today's NBA that fits that profile that isn't a future HOFer. I'm open to being wrong there, but you'd have to point out a starting two guard who fits his profile today. 

I don't disagree he is more skilled than those two players, but those two are much bigger. Size matters. Duncan Robinson can get shots off that Hornacek couldn't simply because of size and Crowder plays a completely different role. He's a stretch, 3 and D four that is there as much for his toughness as anything. 

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I do agree with your larger point @KoB2011, that overall players today are more skilled. I've always agreed with that. 

I just think Jeff Hornacek and the comment that he wouldn't be in the rotation for good teams today, was a really, really bad example. 

The guy made an all-star team and was the 3rd best player on a team that went to back-to-back Finals. 

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Just now, KoB2011 said:

Is your argument that humans we're better athletes in the 80s and 90s? It's an absurd, objectively wrong argument if so.

Whatever and your assertion that players from the past couldn't play  today is absurd as well.  Overall they might be better athletes but to me on the whole they are not better basketball players.  I would love to see Durant trying to guard Karl Malone in the post. If they are better athletes then why do they play less minutes during games and sit out games when not injured.

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2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

He was a 6'3 player who primarily scored with jumpers. I don't think there is a single guy in today's NBA that fits that profile that isn't a future HOFer. I'm open to being wrong there, but you'd have to point out a starting two guard who fits his profile today. 

I don't disagree he is more skilled than those two players, but those two are much bigger. Size matters. Duncan Robinson can get shots off that Hornacek couldn't simply because of size and Crowder plays a completely different role. He's a stretch, 3 and D four that is there as much for his toughness as anything. 

Again, the guy was an all-star once. He's better then Marcus Smart who is the Celtics 2-guard. 

He's better then Seth Curry who is the Sixers 2-guard. 

He was better then Gary Harris who was the Nuggets 2-guard before the trade. 

Just rattling off a few. 

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1 minute ago, BGleas said:

I do agree with your larger point @KoB2011, that overall players today are more skilled. I've always agreed with that. 

I just think Jeff Hornacek and the comment that he wouldn't be in the rotation for good teams today, was a really, really bad example. 

The guy made an all-star team and was the 3rd best player on a team that went to back-to-back Finals. 

It's not just that players are more skilled. It's that they're bigger, faster, and stronger too. We've had a monumental leap in terms of the human body on the pat 20-30 years because not only have we kept evolving, we no so much more about how to take care of our bodies than we ever have. 

The elite guys from yesteryear could probably match up athletically because to some level they're just born different, but the average and even good athletes from today are leaps and bounds better than that same class from then. 

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Whatever and your assertion that players from the past couldn't play  today is absurd as well.  Overall they might be better athletes but to me on the whole they are not better basketball players.  I would love to see Durant trying to guard Karl Malone in the post. If they are better athletes then why do they play less minutes during games and sit out games when not injured.

Durant wouldn't guard Malone in the post though? They don't play the same position. 

Malone is an all firm great, he could play on any era. No doubt. 

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4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

It's not just that players are more skilled. It's that they're bigger, faster, and stronger too. We've had a monumental leap in terms of the human body on the pat 20-30 years because not only have we kept evolving, we no so much more about how to take care of our bodies than we ever have. 

The elite guys from yesteryear could probably match up athletically because to some level they're just born different, but the average and even good athletes from today are leaps and bounds better than that same class from then. 

I agree with a lot of that. I just don't think Hornacek is the guy to plant your flag on with this one. He was a player. Don't forget, he was largely defended by Jordan in those Finals too. 

The flip side to your position is that due to the change in defensive rules, I think there are a lot of guys, primarily some of these smaller guards that are putting up numbers, that wouldn't make it in the NBA of the 90's with the physicality and hand checking. 

Again, a guy like Seth Curry comes to mind. 

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2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I agree with a lot of that. I just don't think Hornacek is the guy to plant your flag on with this one. He was a player. Don't forget, he was largely defended by Jordan in those Finals too. 

The flip side to your position is that due to the change in defensive rules, I think there are a lot of guys, primarily some of these smaller guards that are putting up numbers, that wouldn't make it in the NBA of the 90's with the physicality and hand checking. 

Again, a guy like Seth Curry comes to mind. 

Even a guy on Trae Young who is very good would struggle with the physicality of the game in the 80's and 90's.  Players back then had to have a different mentality especially going to the basketball.  Now you have free reign to get the basket with no feat of getting your head knocked off

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22 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I agree with a lot of that. I just don't think Hornacek is the guy to plant your flag on with this one. He was a player. Don't forget, he was largely defended by Jordan in those Finals too. 

The flip side to your position is that due to the change in defensive rules, I think there are a lot of guys, primarily some of these smaller guards that are putting up numbers, that wouldn't make it in the NBA of the 90's with the physicality and hand checking. 

Again, a guy like Seth Curry comes to mind. 

I think that's a fair point about the rule changes. Maybe Hornacek isn't the best example, but I guess my point is that I don't think he is a high level two guard in the NBA today like he was then. Is he better than some marginal starting two guards? Yeah, I think that's more than fair. 

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20 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Even a guy on Trae Young who is very good would struggle with the physicality of the game in the 80's and 90's.  Players back then had to have a different mentality especially going to the basketball.  Now you have free reign to get the basket with no feat of getting your head knocked off

Yes and no. There was more physicality allowed, but they couldn't play zone defense then so you didn't get walled off as much as you do today. 

Trae Young, in particular, has also extended defenses in ways no one did back then. It's hard to say how things would've been officiated with the rules then when you think about how far defenses get extended and the hybrid and zone looks we see; there is a potential for a lot of illegal defense calls. 

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2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think that's a fair point about the rule changes. Maybe Hornacek isn't the best example, but I guess my point is that I don't think he is a high level two guard in the NBA today like he was then. Is he better than some marginal starting two guards? Yeah, I think that's more than fair. 

Agree to disagree. I think he'd actually be better offensively today the way the game is played.

It's not like he played in the '50's. He was going up against Jordan, Drexler, Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Latrell Spreewell, etc., etc and he wasdriving the lane to meet centers like Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, etc.

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9 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree to disagree. I think he'd actually be better offensively today the way the game is played.

It's not like he played in the '50's. He was going up against Jordan, Drexler, Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Latrell Spreewell, etc., etc and he wasdriving the lane to meet centers like Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, etc.

Fair enough, I only remember his really late years where he would have obviously been a different player than he was at his peak.

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