Wichita State post game thread

[JWoolsey]

19 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

I'd actually disagree with a lot of the above two statements.  Basketball is a basic game.  Don't make things overly complicated.  Play basic but nuanced.  Don't have to be straight out of the textbook, but you don't have to reinvent the wheel either.

And whoever succeeds K at Duke will have a tall order, but I think Marshall would be a great candidate.  Smart at Texas is the perfect counter-example.  "Young", "innovative", "different".  Sounds like what you're describing above.  Hasn't exactly worked so far.  Because it's basic, Marshall's style is portable.  It would work well anywhere. 

I'm all for disagreements! I'm glad you responded. Basketball is not a a basic game at all! It's a perfect game because the added element of luck/randomness creates the skill. You can never play it perfectly but you can always play it optimally! What you can do is quantify it and play as optimally as you can based off of what you know has worked in the past.

Let me give you a quote on game theory. 
"the branch of mathematics concerned with the analysis of strategies for dealing with competitive situations where the outcome of a participant's choice of action depends critically on the actions of other participants. Game theory has been applied to contexts in war, business, and biology."

What's perfect today can be exploited easily under the right situations. We've got a hundred years of this and it's getting fun. Picture a 'perfect' game. You'd shoot 100/100 on 3's and get 100/100 stops. You can never do that but what we've been seeing play out is a a situation where every team is trying to be better than they were last season. This is why you HAVE to shoot 3's and you have to play efficient defense. You can't run from the math.

Teams will always shoot better and will always stop shooters. You have to. 

If you aren't playing optimally, someone else is and that's an advantage. That's the battle and it always changes. 

Maybe Tony Bennett has figured it out? I don't think so but he's really doubling down. 

Marshall is a good coach with old ideas. Old dogs and new tricks and all that. 

 

[Long Duk Dong]

9 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

We're ashamed you're a Hoosier too. 

Now, in all your infinite wisdom, Monsieur Dong, who would not have been a "lazy and cheap hire"?

How about the guy who just kicked our butts at home with 10 newbies? A team that will be excellent next  year while we lose our two best. How about Donovan? Tony Bennett? 

How about offering more money than effing Wichita State does for a head coach to coach at Indiana?

Indiana athletics are absolutely shameful. I'm sorry if you aren't ashamed at the state and culture of IU athletics.

[JWoolsey]

3 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

How about the guy who just kicked our butts at home with 10 newbies? A team that will be excellent next  year while we lose our two best. How about Donovan? Tony Bennett? 

How about offering more money than effing Wichita State does for a head coach to coach at Indiana?

Indiana athletics are absolutely shameful. I'm sorry if you aren't ashamed at the state and culture of IU athletics.

Preach brother! I've been saying that for so long that I've gone full circle. Its to the point now where I just catch the games of the teams that play 'good ball' ... we'll turn it around when we turn it around. It's not apathy, it's money and we have lots of it.

When the money is threatened, the program will be motivated. 

 

FYI...IU Soccer is INCREDIBLE. Soccer is the worlds game and we crush it. So there's that

[addictedtoIU]

Good coaching was on display tonight by W. State. Their players came to AH to win, their ball screens were tight, and they moved the ball well and played a tough/physical game. Their players were ready to sacrifice their bodies and made things difficult for us. Nothing was easy for us. I don't even remember if I saw our team was able to put together a good 5-minute run. We looked like an undisciplined team and deserved to lose. Looking forward to the next season. 

[Zlinedavid]

2 minutes ago, JWoolsey said:

I'm all for disagreements! I'm glad you responded. Basketball is not a a basic game at all! It's a perfect game because the added element of luck/randomness creates the skill. You can never play it perfectly but you can always play it optimally! What you can do is quantify it and play as optimally as you can based off of what you know has worked in the past.

Let me give you a quote on game theory. 
"the branch of mathematics concerned with the analysis of strategies for dealing with competitive situations where the outcome of a participant's choice of action depends critically on the actions of other participants. Game theory has been applied to contexts in war, business, and biology."

What's perfect today can be exploited easily under the right situations. We've got a hundred years of this and it's getting fun. Picture a 'perfect' game. You'd shoot 100/100 on 3's and get 100/100 stops. You can never do that but what we've been seeing play out is a a situation where every team is trying to be better than they were last season. This is why you HAVE you shoot 3's and you have to play efficient defense. 

Teams will always shoot better and will always stop shooters. You have to. 

If you aren't playing optimally, someone else is and that's an advantage. That's the battle and it always changes. 

Maybe Tony Bennett has figured it out? I don't think so but he's really doubling down. 

Marshall is a good coach with old ideas. Old dogs and new tricks and all that. 

 

Make your shots, and keep your opponent from making theirs.  Sounds pretty basic to me. 

I use predictive models and ridiculously complex data sets every day.  Want complicated? Try to forecast how much electricity a given community will use on a certain hour of a certain day 3 years from now.  Factoring in weather, population growth, changes in demographics, potential of large businesses entering or leaving, new housing starts....all integrated with various models based purely on past consumption.  Trust me.  Basketball is simple. 

You can crunch down all the trends, statistics, predictions, etc.  You can know your models inside and out.  Want to know the most valuable skill pertaining to them? Knowing when they've failed, and figuring out why.  Knowing the non-statistical environment, and making the right gut call is still reality. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

We need shooters. 

It’s really that simple.

[Long Duk Dong]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

We need shooters. 

It’s really that simple.

Yeah. Thats it. This program is Michigan/Michigan State if we had a couple of shooters lol

[OGIUAndy]

1 minute ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Yeah. Thats it. This program is Michigan/Michigan State if we had a couple of shooters lol

Ashamed to be a Hoosier yet on Hoosier Sports Nation. Make up your mind. lol 

[JWoolsey]

16 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

Make your shots, and keep your opponent from making theirs.  Sounds pretty basic to me. 

I use predictive models and ridiculously complex data sets every day.  Want complicated? Try to forecast how much electricity a given community will use on a certain hour of a certain day 3 years from now.  Factoring in weather, population growth, changes in demographics, potential of large businesses entering or leaving, new housing starts....all integrated with various models based purely on past consumption.  Trust me.  Basketball is simple. 

You can crunch down all the trends, statistics, predictions, etc.  You can know your models inside and out.  Want to know the most valuable skill pertaining to them? Knowing when they've failed, and figuring out why.  Knowing the non-statistical environment, and making the right gut call is still reality. 

WOAH!!!!!  Sir, will you have this dance? 💃

This is fun stuff. Sometimes you have to flex and you're not trying to be a jerk when you do it either. You just have a different background with different perspectives. Not right, or wrong just confident.

You're absolutely spot on with knowing what failed and figuring out why. That's the whole point of it all isn't it? I love it. That's how you win in the end if you can beat everyone else to the punch and implicate it. 

 

 

I'm feeling really humbled with the making the right gut call line too because that's the ultimate end game. Strong. Very strong.

 

 

 

[Stlboiler23]

41 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Why did Cody Zeller come back?  He was projected higher than Romeo.

Pretty sure academics played a pretty big role with Zeller didn’t it? Not 100% sure but don’t think Romeo is nearly as concerned about that. 

[BADGERVOL]

Can we just win? Why is it seem it is SO much harder for IU despite us having SO much going for us than so many other programs?

tennessee??!! Virginia Tech? Virginia?!! Come on people they don’t have the facilities, traditions, recruiting base, etc that we do...and that’s just three. What the HECK IS OUR PROBLEM???!!!

[JWoolsey]

3 minutes ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Pretty sure academics played a pretty big role with Zeller didn’t it? Not 100% sure but don’t think Romeo is nearly as concerned about that. 

 

Correct. Plus IU was coming into the season #1.

[Long Duk Dong]

4 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Can we just win? Why is it seem it is SO much harder for IU despite us having SO much going for us than so many other programs?

tennessee??!! Virginia Tech? Virginia?!! Come on people they don’t have the facilities, traditions, recruiting base, etc that we do...and that’s just three. What the HECK IS OUR PROBLEM???!!!

Because we are too cheap to hire the best and brightest coaches.

The administration simply does not want to win anymore. 

Indiana is done and they are fine with tgat.

[BADGERVOL]

Just now, Long Duk Dong said:

Because we are too cheap to hire the best and brightest coaches 

Let’s be serious though if we had hired Barnes would you have been excited? I sure as heck wouldn’t have been. That’s just one example...

[FKIM01]

6 minutes ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Pretty sure academics played a pretty big role with Zeller didn’t it? Not 100% sure but don’t think Romeo is nearly as concerned about that. 

Not really.  Cody could come back anytime and finish his degree.  In fact, he's done just that.  He was enjoying his time at IU and not anxious to jump to the NBA at that point.  By all accounts, Romeo is also a good student.  I think he said calculus was his favorite subject in high school.

[5 championships]

2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

I am very disappointed in Smith this year because I really thought he would have a breakout season this year.  I just don't knw if he has the right mentality to play at IU ad do what it takes to be a good basketball player.  He seems to laid back and comes across as not caring and really does not look like he plays hard.  Unfortunalty today we got the bad green for the most part and just can't understand why these two can't play with passion every night.

Smith is always a step behind. He just isn’t basketball smart. Gifted with an incredible body and athleticism but doesn’t know how use it. 

[5 championships]

2 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

As critical as I’ve been of the coaching, and today’s game was a perfect example of what I hate about the offense (no movement, all iso drives and telegraphed passes into the paint) and defense (pack the paint and allow three point shooters to go nuts)...

Archie just needs to cut bait on Smith and Green before next year.  You are never going to win with two players like that getting heavy minutes.  Smith is just lazy and terrible at basketball, and Green’s late-season “renaissance” (which was really just a bunch of BS threes that happened to go in) was total fool’s gold.  Might make us worse in the short run, but it’s going to be impossible for Archie to build a winning culture with those guys on the roster.

I agree on smith. I think Devonte can add solid depth. 

[FW_Hoosier]

Uhhh.... Wow.  Guess the NIT means more when you come from a 1-2 bid conference.  I had to check and make sure that happened in our locker room tonight and not in the locker room a couple years back when they went to the actual Final 4.  Gatorade bath for beating this IU team...?  Lol

[madmax]

13 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Because we are too cheap to hire the best and brightest coaches.

The administration simply does not want to win anymore. 

Indiana is done and they are fine with tgat.

I rarely post, generally just a lurker, but seriously? Can you just go back to Peegs with this nonsense?

Yes, the administration still wants to win. It is completely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. We paid Crean millions of dollars to go away, simply because we wanted to win. Further, look back a few years and Archie was on EVERYONE'S list of the "best and brightest". Another thing not necessarily directed at you-people who suggest that Glass should be looking at replacing Archie after 2 years are completely ridiculous. Gee, what a great way to attract a high level coach, by giving him 2 years and then firing him. Archie gets at a minimum 2 more years, barring an absolute meltdown.

[Zlinedavid]

13 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

How about the guy who just kicked our butts at home with 10 newbies? A team that will be excellent next  year while we lose our two best. 

All the reasons why we (or likely anyone else) wasn't getting Marshall last year, this year or anytime soon are below:

1 hour ago, Zlinedavid said:

Actually, I've had a few interesting conversations with WSU fans over the last couple of days. Shockernet is a decent community, BTW. Very similar to HSN.

A few tidbits I picked up:

 

A) Marshall has never "begged" anyone to hire him. Has he listened to offers? Sure. But hasn't been even halfway close to leaving WSU.

B) He's never once balked at having an extremely large buyout included in his contract. A buyout typically only applied at "destination" jobs. This year, it's $15M. The next highest in the AAC, $2M. Not the action of a guy that plans on going anywhere.

C) He doesn't have a blank check, but isn't far from it. WSU has a standing offer to match or exceed any "reasonable" offer.

D) In addition to his salary, there are other benefits he has in his contract (likely Koch funded). All team flights are chartered. He has nearly open access to a Koch private jet, so long as it isn't abused.

E) He has a very businesslike approach, and overall is a reasonable, low maintenance person. You'll never see a clause in his contract that says he must be one of the X highest paid coaches. He knows the financial situation he's in, and will use it to his benefit, but isn't going to abuse it.

F) Mark Few is a fair comparison. He's happy in Wichita. He's near the top of his profession in salary and has built a nationally competitive program. That said, even WSU fans won't say he's as entrenched as Few. There is one job that would tempt him the most, when it opens up eventually: Duke. Primarily because, he's a native of that area,and if he made a move, it'd be the last move of his career.

 

So the idea of a big name walking in with a big check....nowhere near as certain as you'd like it to be. Could he leave? Sure. But he's in no hurry and has minimal desire to do so.

 

15 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

How about Donovan?

Tried.  No amount of money was going to pry him from the NBA. 

 

15 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Tony Bennett?

A) There's still some lingering bad blood between the Bennett family and Indiana over the firing of Tony's sister Kathi. 
B) You'd complain that we just hired the only coach to ever lose to a 16 seed.

 

15 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

How about offering more money than effing Wichita State does for a head coach to coach at Indiana?

Find an IU benefactor with a net worth even approaching the Koch brothers and you can make this claim.  And just as a reminder of the scale you're up against, their combined net worth is 25X that of Mark Cuban.  Marshall's salary is a rounding error to them. 

 

15 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Indiana athletics are absolutely shameful. I'm sorry if you aren't ashamed at the state and culture of IU athletics.

I think what you mean to say is that you're ashamed of the state of IU men's basketball.  Last I checked, women's basketball is as competitive as they've ever been.  Men's soccer is coming off of a B10 title, and back to back College Cup appearances.  We have probably the most dominant women's swimmer on the planet at the moment.  Baseball has made the NCAA tournament in 6 out of the past 7 years, with one CWS appearance and 2 conference titles. 

Now, while YOU may be ashamed of IU basketball at the moment, I'm not.  Why? Because I can draw a clear, distinct line between "not entirely happy" and "ashamed".  Now, 11 years ago, I was ashamed of IU basketball.  Today, not entirely happy, but I can also respect a clean program with a coach that appears to be putting his all into it.  That gets me well past the threshold of "ashamed". 

Any other brilliant insights you'd like to offer now, Nostradongus?

[FKIM01]

5 minutes ago, madmax said:

I rarely post, generally just a lurker, but seriously? Can you just go back to Peegs with this nonsense?

Yes, the administration still wants to win. It is completely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. We paid Crean millions of dollars to go away, simply because we wanted to win. Further, look back a few years and Archie was on EVERYONE'S list of the "best and brightest". Another thing not necessarily directed at you-people who suggest that Glass should be looking at replacing Archie after 2 years are completely ridiculous. Gee, what a great way to attract a high level coach, by giving him 2 years and then firing him. Archie gets at a minimum 2 more years, barring an absolute meltdown.

You should post more.  I move the forum admins give you Ding Dong's post allotment.

[Zlinedavid]

22 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Can we just win? Why is it seem it is SO much harder for IU despite us having SO much going for us than so many other programs?

tennessee??!! Virginia Tech? Virginia?!! Come on people they don’t have the facilities, traditions, recruiting base, etc that we do...and that’s just three. What the HECK IS OUR PROBLEM???!!!

Virginia may not have as much tradition as we do, but they're a few tiers ahead of Tennessee and VT.  They've been a very solid program since the early 80s. 

[madmax]

I might have to. Seriously though, one of the reasons that I've always enjoyed this community is that even though there are disagreements and even posters who don't like each other, it generally seems that people try to debate and argue with logic and civility. Unfortunately it seems that we have lately had influx of posters who simply like to flame and post idiotic statements with absolutely no merit to them. I don't want to see this place turn into a cesspool like some of the other IU forums on the web. Seriously, anytime I want to be depressed I just go to Peegs and read a few threads. Even after a great win it couldn't be more negative.

[Zlinedavid]

3 minutes ago, madmax said:

 Seriously, anytime I want to be depressed I just go to Peegs and read a few threads. Even after a great win it couldn't be more negative.

The general outlook over there is as dark as Eeyore's butthole during a blackout.

[madmax]

5 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

Virginia may not have as much tradition as we do, but they're a few tiers ahead of Tennessee and VT.  They've been a very solid program since the early 80s. 

They also have a fantastic coach who has had the time to fully emplace his system. I think they will be perennially good for a long time, at least as long as Bennett is there. I also think he is going to break through to the final 4 this year.