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Purdue does more with less than Indiana


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43 minutes ago, BGleas said:

The biggest difference between IU and Purdue right now is one has a coach in his 12th or 13th year and the other has a coach just after his 2nd. 

Chris Beard vs. Bob Huggins in the Big 12.  The .new guy finished 1st and made the Final 4.  The veteran finished last and lost in the CBI quarterfinals.  I think there is more to it than tenure at the school.  Things like Beard snagging the perfect grad transfer in Matt Mooney, while Archie swung and missed with Evan Fitzner.  

Bottom line is Archie needs and deserves time.  But, he does not get a free pass.  

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

The biggest difference between IU and Purdue right now is one has a coach in his 12th or 13th year and the other has a coach just after his 2nd. 

What did Painter do in his 2nd season at Purdue?

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Chris Beard vs. Bob Huggins in the Big 12.  The .new guy finished 1st and made the Final 4.  The veteran finished last and lost in the CBI quarterfinals.  I think there is more to it than tenure at the school.  Things like Beard snagging the perfect grad transfer in Matt Mooney, while Archie swung and missed with Evan Fitzner.  

Bottom line is Archie needs and deserves time.  But, he does not get a free pass.  

And Chris Beard will have bad seasons too eventually. My real point is that the reason Matt Painter can lose 4 starters and not skip a beat is because he has an established program and culture. He’s developed that over 12 to 13 years. His underclassmen know what’s expected and how to play in the system, so they’re ready when a bunch a veterans leave. 

That takes time to cultivate. 

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4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I had no idea. Much different transition from Keady to Painter, than from Crean to Archie. 

See, this where some of the problem lies.  You bring up tenure as an "argument" point.  Get refuted on it and then there is another "excuse".  Now it is about transition?  

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Bottom line is that Painter has done a good (not great) job at Purdue.  Archie has not had success at IU yet.  My question for IU fans is whether a Painter level of success is going to be good enough 12 or 13 seasons into Archie's tenure.  I suspect not, because anything short of a Final Four has proven to insufficient for IU fans.  Heck, a Final Four wasn't even good enough for Mike Davis.  

IU needs to win a Championship, or IU fans need to re-calibrate what they consider success, or we may just keep running through coaches.   

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2 hours ago, rico said:

See, this where some of the problem lies.  You bring up tenure as an "argument" point.  Get refuted on it and then there is another "excuse".  Now it is about transition?  

It’s not an excuse, it’s called context and it matters. Painter took over a program where he was an assistant already, knew the system and didn’t have to change it, knew the culture, had been a part of establishing it already, already had all the in-state and local contacts and relationships, etc.  

I also didn’t bring up an “argument point  I just pointed out that there is a difference between being in Year 12 or 13 vs. year 2. They’re completely different situations. 

Its not an excuse, it’s context. Those things matter. 

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3 hours ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Keady didn’t leave Painter with a ton of talent. I’d argue Archie inherited more talent than Painter did. 

He left more disciplined players in a similar style... I would assume that a Purdue fan is not going to claim that Crean was a better coach than Keady

I am not claiming that Archie is a better coach than Painter.

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3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Bottom line is that Painter has done a good (not great) job at Purdue.  Archie has not had success at IU yet.  My question for IU fans is whether a Painter level of success is going to be good enough 12 or 13 seasons into Archie's tenure.  I suspect not, because anything short of a Final Four has proven to insufficient for IU fans.  Heck, a Final Four wasn't even good enough for Mike Davis.  

IU needs to win a Championship, or IU fans need to re-calibrate what they consider success, or we may just keep running through coaches.   

I've brought this question up in other threads, and I think it really is a different answer based on the generation. If the majority of someone's experience with IU basketball is the last 20 years, I'd imagine they'd be happy with Painter's level, or something close to that (you know, like actually going to a FF, unlike Painter). Those of us that are a little older and have been through multiple NC's likely want or expect more than that. 

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3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Bottom line is that Painter has done a good (not great) job at Purdue.  Archie has not had success at IU yet.  My question for IU fans is whether a Painter level of success is going to be good enough 12 or 13 seasons into Archie's tenure.  I suspect not, because anything short of a Final Four has proven to insufficient for IU fans.  Heck, a Final Four wasn't even good enough for Mike Davis.  

IU needs to win a Championship, or IU fans need to re-calibrate what they consider success, or we may just keep running through coaches.   

Yeah, I don’t think this is really true anymore.  Might’ve been true when Davis got fired, but I think IU fans’ expectations are significantly lower now than they were then, and they probably will be for good.  We still wax rapturous about Crean’s Sweet 16 teams... It was the terrible seasons in between that did him in.  Now, Archie managing to make the tournament at Dayton four years in a row is held up as the standard we’re aspiring to.  

I think visions of banners are dancing in the heads of mostly old guard Knight diehards... Most IU fans I talk to are at the point where they just want to hear Indiana’s name called on Selection Sunday on a regular basis again, and then let the chips fall where they may. 

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5 hours ago, rico said:

See, this where some of the problem lies.  You bring up tenure as an "argument" point.  Get refuted on it and then there is another "excuse".  Now it is about transition?  

The point is, there's not just one cause.  Surely you can see that?  We could add injuries and locker room chemistry as additional causes.

Give Archie a little more time to mold his program and the results will come.  I agree that's probably the biggest challenge for Archie right now.  He's still working the "Crean" out of his program and installing the "Miller".

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7 hours ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Keady didn’t leave Painter with a ton of talent. I’d argue Archie inherited more talent than Painter did. 

In regards to the 1980 Olympic hockey team:

"I'm not looking for the best players, I'm looking for the right ones."

- Herb Brooks

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1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

The point is, there's not just one cause.  Surely you can see that?  We could add injuries and locker room chemistry as additional causes.

Give Archie a little more time to mold his program and the results will come.  I agree that's probably the biggest challenge for Archie right now.  He's still working the "Crean" out of his program and installing the "Miller".

"Ronnie Bass" is that you?

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13 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Archie managing to make the tournament at Dayton four years in a row is held up as the standard we’re aspiring to.  

I'm not sure that is true.  I know CAM having that run of success at Dayton has certainly made me think "If he did that there, what can he do here - if given time?"

I wouldn't say it's the standard, more of a CAM did so much with a $1000 investment, what can he do with million dollars sort of analogy.

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