The Perception and the Reality: IU over the last 25 years

[HoosierMama]

This one should generate some conversation.  A lot to dig through but some interesting points, especially at the end.  

The Perception and the Reality: IU over the last 25 years

 

[FKIM01]

Excellent article.  We'll have the usuals nitpick it apart, but a lot of truth there.

[StLHoosier]

Very good article.  It hurts to read, but it's the truth.  IU just isn't a top program any longer in terms of recent success, and we haven't been consistently relevant during the lives of the kids we're recruiting.  We are currently not a blue blood, but I hope we can get there again some day.

[rico]

9 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Excellent article.  We'll have the usuals nitpick it apart, but a lot of truth there.

From this Hoosier fan's perspective, that read was spot on.

[IUCrazy2]

49 minutes ago, HoosierMama said:

This one should generate some conversation.  A lot to dig through but some interesting points, especially at the end.  

The Perception and the Reality: IU over the last 25 years

 

That all sucks.

I am trying to temper my expectations about the program but the Board of Trustees and Administration who have run this program for the past 25 years have absolutely destroyed one of the gems of this University.

I am all fine with Archie getting some time now but I am still royally pissed at what happened to this program.  With all of the built in advantages we should have had here, to hear that Miller basically laughed about the way some of the stuff was being run at Indiana is infuriating to say the least.  

[FKIM01]

Should change the section title to "A History of Excellence Followed by 25 years in the Desert".

[Zlinedavid]

All 100% true, and for me personally, 0% shock.  Doesn't diminish any optimism I may hold for the future. 

[Seeking6]

Good article. Not much to really comment on that we haven't discussed for years now...but I do love the data. 

I'm sure there are others with similar stories. Used to rent a condo at Eagle Pointe for a couple of months each summer for years. Basically started in 2006 and did it every summer up until 2012. Used to bump into several pretty high profile IU Administration/Athletic Department people at the bar in the clubhouse. I'm always critical of myself for not being able to look into the future a little better at the time. The way they acted, talked, discussed IU Athletics was honestly just embarrassing....and borderline idiotic. Some of these yahoos actually thought a program like IU could just run itself. Wasn't until Sampson came in and described our facilities as just archaic (before Cook Hall). 

If I was an aspiring journalist....I'd be writing a book on our Athletic Depart and Administration starting right around 2000 and highlight every single decision regarding money spent (or lack there of)....the players and coaches all get ripped to shreds. Why not let some of these trustees, sid's, ad administration all get called out. Perhaps the people in those jobs now might get motivated a bit to not repeat what their predecessors did. 

 

[IU Scott]

8 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

That all sucks.

I am trying to temper my expectations about the program but the Board of Trustees and Administration who have run this program for the past 25 years have absolutely destroyed one of the gems of this University.

I am all fine with Archie getting some time now but I am still royally pissed at what happened to this program.  With all of the built in advantages we should have had here, to hear that Miller basically laughed about the way some of the stuff was being run at Indiana is infuriating to say the least.  

That is the thing we have no more advantages than many of the other teams in major conferences..  Recruiting is so much different today than it was when we were more of a dominate program because of AAU basketball where these kids can be seen my every coach in the country.  The talent level is dispersed to many more teams today than it was in the past and ne reason is that kids are not willing to wait long for playing time.  Also when they took scholarships form 15 to 13 it allowed the lesser programs a chance to get better players and kept the top programs from just getting all the top players.

Today with about any basketball game being on some sort of national TV it allows these players an opportunity to see more teams play and give them a better understanding of these programs.  Also being on TV the players realize that their families will still be able to watch most of their games even if they go across country to play.

Also all top program have as good as facilities as we do so where do we really have anymore of an advantage than any other program.

[FKIM01]

2 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

All 100% true, and for me personally, 0% shock.  Doesn't diminish any optimism I may hold for the future. 

Feel the same. If some of our crazies would shut up about wishing kids would transfer and wishing Archie was fired, I'd be very optimistic about the future. Social media may kill this program yet.  Nuking the Rivals forum would help but some days, Twitter is every bit as bad.

[IUCrazy2]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

That is the thing we have no more advantages than many of the other teams in major conferences..  Recruiting is so much different today than it was when we were more of a dominate program because of AAU basketball where these kids can be seen my every coach in the country.  The talent level is dispersed to many more teams today than it was in the past and ne reason is that kids are not willing to wait long for playing time.  Also when they took scholarships form 15 to 13 it allowed the lesser programs a chance to get better players and kept the top programs from just getting all the top players.

Today with about any basketball game being on some sort of national TV it allows these players an opportunity to see more teams play and give them a better understanding of these programs.  Also being on TV the players realize that their families will still be able to watch most of their games even if they go across country to play.

Also all top program have as good as facilities as we do so where do we really have anymore of an advantage than any other program.

Disagree.

We do have advantages that not every other program can lean on.  You can start with fanbase, we are the third most valuable college basketball program based on those rankings that come out every year, we sit in prime recruiting territory and in that territory we are the most supported and talked about program....

Don't confuse not taking advantage of our advantages with not having them.  We have a group of administrators who has incompetently led up the program for 25 years.  This is going to be heresy, but one of the first things we should have been screaming about is Adidas sending players we were recruiting to other schools.  No bleeping way I promote their brand when I know they are actively working against me.  After Knight left we should have gone all in on whatever Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, MSU, etc. were doing. 

[Madison22]

21 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I am trying to temper my expectations about the program but the Board of Trustees and Administration who have run this program for the past 25 years have absolutely destroyed one of the gems of this University.

HSN needs to add a "100 likes" button.

[IUCrazy2]

6 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Feel the same. If some of our crazies would shut up about wishing kids would transfer and wishing Archie was fired, I'd be very optimistic about the future. Social media may kill this program yet.  Nuking the Rivals forum would help but some days, Twitter is every bit as bad.

Twitter is much worse than any internet forum.  People send notes directly to kids with an @ attached to their message.  You have to hunt out the Rivals site, on Twitter the anger comes to you.

On another note, the article touched on this too, some of the attitude and hustle displayed by our players the last year was absolutely worthy of criticism.

The biggest thing separating this team from the ones we saw in the tournament was their apparent lack of giving a crap for a major portion of the year.

[FKIM01]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Disagree.

We do have advantages that not every other program can lean on.  You can start with fanbase, we are the third most valuable college basketball program based on those rankings that come out every year, we sit in prime recruiting territory and in that territory we are the most supported and talked about program....

Don't confuse not taking advantage of our advantages with not having them.  We have a group of administrators who has incompetently led up the program for 25 years.  This is going to be heresy, but one of the first things we should have been screaming about is Adidas sending players we were recruiting to other schools.  No bleeping way I promote their brand when I know they are actively working against me.  After Knight left we should have gone all in on whatever Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, MSU, etc. were doing. 

You are absolutely spot on with everything but the cheating. I'll never want any part of that. What we should have been doing instead was exposing the cheating and advocating for rule changes to level the playing field.  Either legalize the cheating or put some real teeth into the punishment. I don't care which way you go there but level the damned playing field. 

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Disagree.

We do have advantages that not every other program can lean on.  You can start with fanbase, we are the third most valuable college basketball program based on those rankings that come out every year, we sit in prime recruiting territory and in that territory we are the most supported and talked about program....

Don't confuse not taking advantage of our advantages with not having them.  We have a group of administrators who has incompetently led up the program for 25 years.  This is going to be heresy, but one of the first things we should have been screaming about is Adidas sending players we were recruiting to other schools.  No bleeping way I promote their brand when I know they are actively working against me.  After Knight left we should have gone all in on whatever Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, MSU, etc. were doing. 

I guess we will agree to disagree on this topic because I feel IU has no more of an advantage than any other power 5 conference teams.  Also most of the fan base is a positive but more and more of the vocal minority of this fan base is making the fan base a disadvantage.  You go to the rival site and there is no way that part of this fan base is an advantage for this program and the nuts on twitter is making it more and more difficult for a coach to do well at IU.

[ArchieBall13]

Good article and good reminder of the reality of where our program currently stands. Two things that stuck out to me:

-Liked the part about not holding Bob Knight accountable during the 90's. Whether you agree/disagree with him having a long leash, he definitely lost his magic towards the end based on the stats. I know others have cited his interest in hunting/fishing over recruiting and investing in the players that could have been one of the reasons. Increasing temper/frustrations could have been another. He probably more than earned that leash (behavior aside), but it's still a valid point to bring to the table in looking at where we have gotten to today.

-Did not agree with probably should have let Crean go after winning the Big Ten title. Seems to run counter to the idea of stability the article was putting forth. That was a great season even though the bottom fell out shortly thereafter. That move would have made zero sense if you fire Crean then.

 

[IUCrazy2]

21 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

You are absolutely spot on with everything but the cheating. I'll never want any part of that. What we should have been doing instead was exposing the cheating and advocating for rule changes to level the playing field.  Either legalize the cheating or put some real teeth into the punishment. I don't care which way you go there but level the damned playing field. 

Yes, level the field.  That is what I want.  The NCAA apparently did not give a crap so to me an unenforced rule is not a rule at all.

The teams at the top of the heap in that article are the same ones with players all over those FBI reports.  There is a reason they are consistently so good. 

[IUCrazy2]

21 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I guess we will agree to disagree on this topic because I feel IU has no more of an advantage than any other power 5 conference teams.  Also most of the fan base is a positive but more and more of the vocal minority of this fan base is making the fan base a disadvantage.  You go to the rival site and there is no way that part of this fan base is an advantage for this program and the nuts on twitter is making it more and more difficult for a coach to do well at IU.

Yeah, agree to disagree.

I think we all agree that things need to get better though.

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Yeah, agree to disagree.

I think we all agree that things need to get better though.

No doubt, even though I was not for the Archie hire we have to come together as a fan base and let him have time to build his culture.  To me what I think he envisions for IU is the type of team that Texas Tech plays like with defense and good efficient offense.

[Hoosierhoopster]

There is some good and not so good in this article.

The not so good:

The article's premise is "reality" but then the writer deliberately "does not count" vacated seasons or what the "NCAA stripped" from a program, well, there goes reality. You can't have it both ways. If a program won by cheating, that's reality.

The article's premise is also the idea that just looking at wins and losses, and the "raw numbers" during a time period that includes the complete destruction of a program (courtesy of Sampson and IU's self-imposed sanctions) -- while of course not including that for the other schools compared -- can give a fair or objective analysis. To say that's a faulty premise is to engage in serious understatement.

We lost multiple -- MULTIPLE -- years of on-court success and recruiting because of the essentially self-imposed destruction of our program. It's not some routine "scandal" or coaching change, it was the complete and utter destruction of IU's program and specifically the self-imposed sanctions that made winning impossible for years. That's "reality." It's "reality" that the compared schools, on "raw numbers" did not go through that or for most, anything remotely close.

You can't just look at "raw numbers" over this time span and say IU is in the "same ballpark" as West Virginia. Come on, while the article says it looks at things in context, there it does just the opposite. 

OF COURSE IU has "not lived up" over the past 25 years. I mean, seriously? We went through the several coaching changes following the highly disruptive firing of Coach Knight followed by the program destruction with Sampson. No kidding.

 

 

[rico]

12 minutes ago, ArchieBall13 said:

I know others have cited his interest in hunting/fishing over recruiting and investing in the players that could have been one of the reasons. 

 

I know Knight likes to fish and hunt but I in no way buy into the recruiting aspect of that.  Reed, Recker, and Collier came to IU heralded recruits.  Bob ran them off.

[IUCrazy2]

13 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

No doubt, even though I was not for the Archie hire we have to come together as a fan base and let him have time to build his culture.  To me what I think he envisions for IU is the type of team that Texas Tech plays like with defense and good efficient offense.

I have been as mad as any but I am starting to transition into the same "hope" mode that I have every off season.  "If we can just add this piece or that...."

I am apparently a glutton for punishment.

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I have been as mad as any but I am starting to transition into the same "hope" mode that I have every off season.  "If we can just add this piece or that...."

I am apparently a glutton for punishment.

That is part of being a fan because you go through both the good and the bad.  If you leave every time  it got bad it wouldn't make the good worth going through.

[BADGERVOL]

All the tools are there to be a blue blood. We are and will continue to be a sleeping giant. This administration obviously wants to try and “get there” by hiring an up and comer and we have no choice but to support that decision. If this doesn’t workout then we need to take a lesson from schools like Tennessee who when faced with a hire they knew wasn’t in the best interest of the program LITERALLY FORCED RHE HAND OF THEIR SCHOOL TO CHANGE. When Sciano was hired “verbal agreement” to UT the FANS stopped it. And I’m thrilled they did. Do IU fans have the same back bone that UT fans have to look at their leaders and make it clear “so help me GOD if you hire another up and comer we will DESTROY YOU.” Do we have that kind of clout? Or will we forever just sit back and talk about the glory days?

im all for Archie and think he’ll pan out, but yes there’s a chance he won’t...IF he doesn’t, how WE as fans respond will determine the future...not whoever is president and AD at the time. If we get to that point it’s about GROWING A PAIR.

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

All the tools are there to be a blue blood. We are and will continue to be a sleeping giant. This administration obviously wants to try and “get there” by hiring an up and comer and we have no choice but to support that decision. If this doesn’t workout then we need to take a lesson from schools like Tennessee who when faced with a hire they knew wasn’t in the best interest of the program LITERALLY FORCED RHE HAND OF THEIR SCHOOL TO CHANGE. When Sciano was hired “verbal agreement” to UT the FANS stopped it. And I’m thrilled they did. Do IU fans have the same back bone that UT fans have to look at their leaders and make it clear “so help me GOD if you hire another up and comer we will DESTROY YOU.” Do we have that kind of clout? Or will we forever just sit back and talk about the glory days?

im all for Archie and think he’ll pan out, but yes there’s a chance he won’t...IF he doesn’t, how WE as fans respond will determine the future...not whoever is president and AD at the time. If we get to that point it’s about GROWING A PAIR.

You can't say that about a young coach because there are not any elite coaches out there that would leave their current situation to come here.  To me unless a Stevens or Donovan wants to come back to college there are no home run hires out there that would leave their current program.   Even to me Beard would not be a home run hire because there has been other coaches who has made the final four who has not succeeded at other schools(Crean and Smart)