The Perception and the Reality: IU over the last 25 years

[ArchieBall13]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

You can't say that about a young coach because there are not any elite coaches out there that would leave their current situation to come here.  To me unless a Stevens or Donovan wants to come back to college there are no home run hires out there that would leave their current program.   Even to me Beard would not be a home run hire because there has been other coaches who has made the final four who has not succeeded at other schools(Crean and Smart)

Beard's resume doesn't compare to Crean/Smart based on what I see. Crean/Smart caught lightning in a bottle to get to the Final 4 with some solid seasons mixed in. What Beard is building is quite impressive and much more consistently high level. Don't feel like looking up wins/losses but I'm guessing the stats would back this up. Beard has a very consistent/strong upward trend going on at TT. 

[BADGERVOL]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

You can't say that about a young coach because there are not any elite coaches out there that would leave their current situation to come here.  To me unless a Stevens or Donovan wants to come back to college there are no home run hires out there that would leave their current program.   Even to me Beard would not be a home run hire because there has been other coaches who has made the final four who has not succeeded at other schools(Crean and Smart)

If I KNEW our administration offered BIG bucks to a top dog I’d be fine. So they need to leak that that’s what they did. I get that you don’t want to under cut the new coach...but the fan base needs to know that from the top down we are ALL IN.

[SawatchHoosier]

I've always felt that the end of Bob Knight's employment at Indiana set the precedent for future hiring and recruiting. I'm not saying that Knight cheated but his treatment of players set the precedent that under no uncertain terms would any type of cheating or abuse take place by an Indiana men's basketball coach. The self-imposed sanctions after the Sampson era are proof and the hiring or Crean and Miller are proof of this as well. 

Has this affected the winning percentage, NCAA tournament play and other stats mentioned in the article? Yes of course but I'm also happy knowing that we aren't getting sanctioned anytime soon.

 

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

If I KNEW our administration offered BIG bucks to a top dog I’d be fine. So they need to leak that that’s what they did. I get that you don’t want to under cut the new coach...but the fan base needs to know that from the top down we are ALL IN.

Again where are all of these top dogs you are talking about.  also why would nay of them leave their situation to come to a place that is willing to fire a coach after a couple of years.  All the  coaches in the final four have proven they can win big at the place they are now and will have job security for the time being.  So why would they come to IU with no job security since we just fired a coach after a couple of years.

[Steubenhoosier]

1 hour ago, BADGERVOL said:

All the tools are there to be a blue blood. We are and will continue to be a sleeping giant. This administration obviously wants to try and “get there” by hiring an up and comer and we have no choice but to support that decision. If this doesn’t workout then we need to take a lesson from schools like Tennessee who when faced with a hire they knew wasn’t in the best interest of the program LITERALLY FORCED RHE HAND OF THEIR SCHOOL TO CHANGE. When Sciano was hired “verbal agreement” to UT the FANS stopped it. And I’m thrilled they did. Do IU fans have the same back bone that UT fans have to look at their leaders and make it clear “so help me GOD if you hire another up and comer we will DESTROY YOU.” Do we have that kind of clout? Or will we forever just sit back and talk about the glory days?

im all for Archie and think he’ll pan out, but yes there’s a chance he won’t...IF he doesn’t, how WE as fans respond will determine the future...not whoever is president and AD at the time. If we get to that point it’s about GROWING A PAIR.

Sorry Badger, but your example is exactly what is wrong with these "witch hunts." Greg Schiano did nothing wrong or illegal. He reported that he witnessed Sandusky  Improperly touch a kid. The UT fans went on a clear rampage to keep the university from hiring a coach that was nothing more than guilty by association. May be the part of the country that Tennessee is in, but it certainly was a situation where a non-deserving person got railroaded out of town.

https://www.jakedonnelly.com/greg-schiano-problem-evidence-longer-matters/

 

[Steubenhoosier]

Agree with much of what this article says, and provides a sobering reality of where the program is currently. Hopefully, a wake up call has already occurred--and I am optimistic that it has with the hiring of CAM. While expectations of the fan base may have been unrealistic over the last 25 years, without expecting to excel, I don't know that we ever will.

The only concern I have with the author's premise is when he compares overall records between schools, and even conference records. For these statistics, and thus the rankings, to be valid, he would have to also include analysis of strength of schedule. Total records certainly are skewed by the quality of league that a team plays in. Can anyone really say with a straight face that Gonzaga competes in a conference comparable to any of the Power 5 leagues? They are skewed by the quality of the team's out of conference games. A team that schedules mostly cupcake o-o-c games to beef up their record and appear more tournament worthy, will naturally have a better ranking as evaluated by this writer. Conference schedules including winning regular season conference titles can be skewed by the unbalanced schedules we have seen as conference expansion has occurred. 

[FKIM01]

28 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Agree with much of what this article says, and provides a sobering reality of where the program is currently. Hopefully, a wake up call has already occurred--and I am optimistic that it has with the hiring of CAM. While expectations of the fan base may have been unrealistic over the last 25 years, without expecting to excel, I don't know that we ever will.

The only concern I have with the author's premise is when he compares overall records between schools, and even conference records. For these statistics, and thus the rankings, to be valid, he would have to also include analysis of strength of schedule. Total records certainly are skewed by the quality of league that a team plays in. Can anyone really say with a straight face that Gonzaga competes in a conference comparable to any of the Power 5 leagues? They are skewed by the quality of the team's out of conference games. A team that schedules mostly cupcake o-o-c games to beef up their record and appear more tournament worthy, will naturally have a better ranking as evaluated by this writer. Conference schedules including winning regular season conference titles can be skewed by the unbalanced schedules we have seen as conference expansion has occurred. 

All fair points.  I'm sure the author skipped SOS simply because of the time involved in adjusting for that every year.  It almost has to be a simplistic analysis in some respects if you're going to avoid a project that takes far too long and looks like War & Peace when it's done.

[Steubenhoosier]

10 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

All fair points.  I'm sure the author skipped SOS simply because of the time involved in adjusting for that every year.  It almost has to be a simplistic analysis in some respects if you're going to avoid a project that takes far too long and looks like War & Peace when it's done.

Agreed. Sabremetrics can be good, but sometimes getting too bogged down in statistics overrules common sense. 

[AxnJxn]

This seems like a lot of work compiling data to show what a large majority of us already know - IU has been a slightly above average program for 25 years. I don't know anyone that perceives us as anything more in that period.

[BADGERVOL]

2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Again where are all of these top dogs you are talking about.  also why would nay of them leave their situation to come to a place that is willing to fire a coach after a couple of years.  All the  coaches in the final four have proven they can win big at the place they are now and will have job security for the time being.  So why would they come to IU with no job security since we just fired a coach after a couple of years.

When have we fired a coach after a couple years? Name one time we’ve done that?

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

When have we fired a coach after a couple years? Name one time we’ve done that?

I am talking about if we fired Archie after this year like some want

[rico]

3 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Agreed. Sabremetrics can be good, but sometimes getting too bogged down in statistics overrules common sense. 

And metrics can also be used to skew a particular viewpoint.

[JWoolsey]

That's a very good article and I appreciate the effort put into it. When you put a lot of effort into things like that you're sort of forced to take a stand in one direction more than you might want to for the sake of the point so I understand his POV and what HH was saying. 

There's a few things that I'm in the minority in. I don't believe in @ ing college kids but forums are fair game and if you want to speak your mind and get your POV out there then that's a right. I also think it's fair game to put pressure on the players and especially the staff. We pay good $ to go the games and good $ on apparel. The program is valued so highly because of us. There should be inherent pressure to match that from a results POV. 

Unrealistic expectations are a big problem and someone with my background should have known better (regarding the Archie firing talk). I was out of line with the presentation but I think the points I made getting there are worth considering and worth being debated. 

I didn't like what I saw from a game play point of view and especially not from a metric POV but he deserves the time and I've done a 180 on keeping him around. I wanted a young up and coming coach if we missed on Donovan and that's what we landed so we've got to let that play out. He will get better and he will adapt there's no denying that. I think we all just need to adapt the time frame for getting there. 

I think we need to see one more season to look at player development, system development, game play, and importantly recruiting. That needs to match our ambitions and so far, so good there. 

[milehiiu]

Ken Bikoff has done some great work in terms of documenting IU history.  In fact , if you never read his series on the history of Assembly Hall... you owe your self a favor by going on line and checking it out.  It's been years since Ken and I communicated when I was part of the team, before HSN left 247.... and he came back to Peegs and became a part of the 247 team. I want it understood that Ken does great work. Always has. And continues to do so.

Having said that. I find it disturbing on his part, knowing his history... to cherry pick the whole history of Indiana University basketball. The perception and history of IU basketball over the past 25 years ?

What about the history of IU basketball over the past 100 years ?

What about the five banners hanging in Assembly Hall ?  The very Assembly Hall that Ken documented in his great series over 100 years ?

Why pick out just 25 years ?

IU has been playing basketball for 119 seasons.

Why not talk about that ?  Why cherry pick just 25 seasons ?  What about the 1833 victories spanning the entire time IU has been playing basketball ?  Why not talk about those victories which places IU among the greatest programs of all time ?

The five banners hanging in Assembly Hall, aside.... what about  the number of IU wins in the NCAAT, which currently stands at 68, resulting in 8, final four appearances.

 

Folks.  Let's let's focus on what IU has accomplished... not the past 25 years.  But for the past 119 years.

 

 

[rico]

1 hour ago, milehiiu said:

Ken Bikoff has done some great work in terms of documenting IU history.  In fact , if you never read his series on the history of Assembly Hall... you owe your self a favor by going on line and checking it out.  It's been years since Ken and I communicated when I was part of the team, before HSN left 247.... and he came back to Peegs and became a part of the 247 team. I want it understood that Ken does great work. Always has. And continues to do so.

Having said that. I find it disturbing on his part, knowing his history... to cherry pick the whole history of Indiana University basketball. The perception and history of IU basketball over the past 25 years ?

What about the history of IU basketball over the past 100 years ?

What about the five banners hanging in Assembly Hall ?  The very Assembly Hall that Ken documented in his great series over 100 years ?

Why pick out just 25 years ?

IU has been playing basketball for 119 seasons.

Why not talk about that ?  Why cherry pick just 25 seasons ?  What about the 1833 victories spanning the entire time IU has been playing basketball ?  Why not talk about those victories which places IU among the greatest programs of all time ?

The five banners hanging in Assembly Hall, aside.... what about  the number of IU wins in the NCAAT, which currently stands at 68, resulting in 8, final four appearances.

 

Folks.  Let's let's focus on what IU has accomplished... not the past 25 years.  But for the past 119 years.

 

 

It is pretty simple my friend.  You pick out the years that fit your argument.....and those years fit his argument and/or agenda.

[IUCrazy2]

6 minutes ago, rico said:

It is pretty simple my friend.  You pick out the years that fit your argument.....and those years fit his argument and/or agenda.

No, he picked out about 25 years because it encompasses the majority of the lifespan for someone like me who just hit middle age.  I am 40.  The only championship win for Indiana that I even vaguely remember was the 1987 team.  I was 8...in second grade.  I have children older than I was the last time Indiana won a title.  The last time we were in a Final Four was the year after I graduated from IU, 2002.  The kids we are  currently recruiting were either babies or had not been born.

So yeah, we can celebrate our past but I feel that the people who run Indiana have spent the better part of this past 25 years in selling the fanbase on what we were as opposed to doing what it took to make sure what we were is what we currently are.  The person that wrote that article is correct, we need to start making new memories for young people to hang their hat on along with celebrating the past.  If all you can sell me is how great it used to be, I get pissed that I too cannot enjoy what all those people did.

[rico]

2 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

No, he picked out about 25 years because it encompasses the majority of the lifespan for someone like me who just hit middle age.  I am 40.  The only championship win for Indiana that I even vaguely remember was the 1987 team.  I was 8...in second grade.  I have children older than I was the last time Indiana won a title.  The last time we were in a Final Four was the year after I graduated from IU, 2002.  The kids we are  currently recruiting were either babies or had not been born.

So yeah, we can celebrate our past but I feel that the people who run Indiana have spent the better part of this past 25 years in selling the fanbase on what we were as opposed to doing what it took to make sure what we were is what we currently are.  The person that wrote that article is correct, we need to start making new memories for young people to hang their hat on along with celebrating the past.  If all you can sell me is how great it used to be, I get pissed that I too cannot enjoy what all those people did.

So you are saying he went after your age demographic?  Is that not a POV?

[milehiiu]

20 minutes ago, rico said:

It is pretty simple my friend.  You pick out the years that fit your argument.....and those years fit his argument and/or agenda.

The very reason why we have history books.  And why I studied American History, my freshman and sophomore years at IU. I did not live it. But I NEEDED to know what went on. There is so much more to IUBB than just the past 25 years.  To just pay attention to the last 25 years, is not doing any IU fan a favor.

[IUaic]

22 minutes ago, rico said:

It is pretty simple my friend.  You pick out the years that fit your argument.....and those years fit his argument and/or agenda.

True. If he went to 30 years, now you include the Cheaney years and his argument loses a little sting.

Personally, I thought the article was pretty spot on. We haven't been the IU we middle aged fans know and love since the early 90's. We have become a catch lightning in a bottle every so often program as opposed to the year in and year out conference contender that MSU has been under Izzo.

[rico]

7 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

The very reason why we have history books.  And why I studied American History, my freshman ans sophomore years at IU. I did not live it. But I NEEDED to know what went on. There is so much more to IUBB than just the past 25 years.  To just pay attention to the last 25 years, is not doing any IU fan a favor.

Ya see Bro, that is the thing.  A lot of fans, including ours, are not "students of the game".  

[IUCrazy2]

19 minutes ago, rico said:

So you are saying he went after your age demographic?  Is that not a POV?

My age and lower.  He basically admitted as much in the article.  I am paraphrasing but he said that a program like IU has been able to sustain because of all of the people who lived through the highs of the Knight years sticking through the hard times and continuing to donate and buy tickets through these lean years.  That has been great, that is where history helped.

Now take someone in my age demographic and lower.  Eventually those Knight stalwarts who lived through the best 25 year period in Indiana basketball are going to give way to those who have lived through the 25 worst.  History is great but when you are selling a product, you can only rest on your laurels so long.  Think the US car market in the late 70's and through the 80's.  They rested on their laurels, quality dropped, and they lost market share to Japan in a major way.  They have never fully recovered.

So yes, celebrate history.  Believe me, the young Indiana fans are well aware of the history of this program but trying to sell new fans on how awesome it was to watch Steve Alford and celebrate that great run will only go so far.  It was great that some of you got to live through that, for a fan that is 30, that is not the case.  What do you need to keep their interest?  Win.  Stop saying how great we were and start doing what it takes to show them how great we are.  Fred Glass gets caught up in this nostalgia stuff all the time.  It is his number 1 shtick.  And we love it to so we eat it up...to a point.  When you sell how great this program was, it makes how mediocre it has been for about 2/3 of my life and even more for those younger than me stick out like a sore thumb.  I think that is kind of the point of the article.  We celebrate how special we were before every game and to someone that is 30, that is a thumb in the eye.  Great, we were awesome when my parents were my age, can we do something so that we can be awesome now so that I can enjoy the same things that people over 50 have?

[rico]

2 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

My age and lower.  He basically admitted as much in the article.  I am paraphrasing but he said that a program like IU has been able to sustain because of all of the people who lived through the highs of the Knight years sticking through the hard times and continuing to donate and buy tickets through these lean years.  That has been great, that is where history helped.

Now take someone in my age demographic and lower.  Eventually those Knight stalwarts who lived through the best 25 year period in Indiana basketball are going to give way to those who have lived through the 25 worst.  History is great but when you are selling a product, you can only rest on your laurels so long.  Think the US car market in the late 70's and through the 80's.  They rested on their laurels, quality dropped, and they lost market share to Japan in a major way.  They have never fully recovered.

So yes, celebrate history.  Believe me, the young Indiana fans are well aware of the history of this program but trying to sell new fans on how awesome it was to watch Steve Alford and celebrate that great run will only go so far.  It was great that some of you got to live through that, for a fan that is 30, that is not the case.  What do you need to keep their interest?  Win.  Stop saying how great we were and start doing what it takes to show them how great we are.  Fred Glass gets caught up in this nostalgia stuff all the time.  It is his number 1 shtick.  And we love it to so we eat it up...to a point.  When you sell how great this program was, it makes how mediocre it has been for about 2/3 of my life and even more for those younger than me stick out like a sore thumb.  I think that is kind of the point of the article.  We celebrate how special we were before every game and to someone that is 30, that is a thimble in the eye.  Great, we were awesome when my parents were my age, can we do something so that we can be awesome now so that I can enjoy the same things that people over 50 have?

So now you are picking on us guys that are 50 and over?  LOL  I understand your argument/POV.  My son is 27, he barely remembers IU magical championship run.

[Steubenhoosier]

The theme of this article was relevance. As in 2019 relevance. What happened, especially more than 25 years ago, is a nice story, makes the fanbase and alumni feel good about themselves (mostly) and honors the kids who put on the candy stripes and played their hearts out for whomever was the coach at the time. My take on this article was that even though it was focused on the fans and expectations, it was equally directed at kids who may become future Hoosiers. To those kids, the past is not nearly as important as what the program is now, and what it can progress to in the future. 

[IUCrazy2]

15 minutes ago, rico said:

So now you are picking on us guys that are 50 and over?  LOL  I understand your argument/POV.  My son is 27, he barely remembers IU magical championship run.

Not picking, when it comes to IU basketball, envying.

Some of us want to get back to seeing that and much of the younger fanbase wants to have the chance to experience that for themselves.  I caught a little taste in 2002 and it was crazy during that run.  Would like to see that more often.

[hoosierdaddy_72]

I really didn't see the point of the article.  It was like 10,000 words to tell us IU has been mediocre over the last 25 years?  We knew that.  Maybe for a national reporter it would have made sense to write, but for an IU reporter it was kind of silly to me.  What does he want us to do, stop caring so much?