Madison22 Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 Edit: this post contains some errors made by me, which kind readers have politely pointed out. I've left them in. Here's the OP without changes: I've read on several of our threads that it takes a new coach a long time to install a new style of play. Perhaps years. Get new players, hope you get the right players, have those new right players learn and execute, then maybe get a bit lucky. The younger the players, the harder it is. I know that every example has a counter-example. One case does not equal proof. I get that. I bring this for discussion only. Knight's Final Four team in his second year. The IU coach before Bob Knight was 4 - 17. Then Knight took over. Young team. Lots of freshman. Year one: 17 - 8. Year two: 22 - 6. Final Four. Lost to Bill Walton's UCLA powerhouse by 11 points, while UCLA went on to win the championship by 21. IU beat Kentucky earlier in the tournament. Then IU dropped 97 points on Providence to win 3rd place (they played for 3rd place back then). Before the shot clock or 3-point basket. Still a young team. Year three: 23 - 5. Year four: 31 - 1. Year five: 32 - 0. As I said, an example is not proof. For every Bob Knight, there may be 10 other coaches that support the "it takes years" theory. I hope this thread (if it becomes a thread 😀) doesn't devolve into lobbing but-what-abouts at each other. Just politely bringing this for discussion, if anyone wants to chime in. It touches on topics of patience, building a team, recruiting, expectations, growth, progress - just about everything. Still, 97 points on Providence to finish #3 in the NCAA tournament, by a defense-oriented Bob Knight team who had just installed a brand new system to unproven players. The man could coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiveoutofsix Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 Its a totally different era and type of kids. When Coach Knight took over it was documented IU was looking for someone that would have discipline and he was able to take some athletes and have them play more fundamental. Those kids went through boot camp and took it. This IU team has to many players that are not skilled and they want a different role than the coach wants for him. How can I say this? Smith's dads comments gives me that evidence. Furthermore, this was not a good roster. Should IU of won 3-4 more games this year even with the injuries? Yes; however, I do think the future is bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Duk Dong Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 It can take some time learning the ropes. I remember when I turned 21 and I went to my first night club. After a couple of drinks a older woman who was average looking tapped me on the shoulder. I turned around, she smiled and winked and said "you're coming home with me, young man'. I froze. All I could manage was a 'yes maam'. So that was the night I also lost my virginity. But that's another story altogether..... After a couple more weekends clubbing, I got the hang of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feathery Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 Archie said when he first got here it would take 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 So, either you set the alarm and hope that they figure out “the system “ before it goes off, or you trust the process and don’t focus on the timeframe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 I think it takes longer when the new system is soooooooo much different than the old system. - Captain Obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Madison22 said: I've read on several of our threads that it takes a new coach a long time to install a new style of play. Perhaps years. Get new players, hope you get the right players, have those new right players learn and execute, then maybe get a bit lucky. The younger the players, the harder it is. I know that every example has a counter-example. One case does not equal proof. I get that. I bring this for discussion only. Knight's Final Four team in his second year. The IU coach before Bob Knight was 4 - 17. Then Knight took over. Young team. Lots of freshman. Year one: 17 - 8. Year two: 22 - 6. Final Four. Lost to Bill Walton's UCLA powerhouse by 11 points, while UCLA went on to win the championship by 21. IU beat Kentucky earlier in the tournament. Then IU dropped 97 points on Providence to win 3rd place (they played for 3rd place back then). Before the shot clock or 3-point basket. Still a young team. Year three: 23 - 5. Year four: 31 - 1. Year five: 32 - 0. As I said, an example is not proof. For every Bob Knight, there may be 10 other coaches that support the "it takes years" theory. I hope this thread (if it becomes a thread 😀) doesn't devolve into lobbing but-what-abouts at each other. Just politely bringing this for discussion, if anyone wants to chime in. It touches on topics of patience, building a team, recruiting, expectations, growth, progress - just about everything. Still, 97 points on Providence to finish #3 in the NCAA tournament, by a defense-oriented Bob Knight team who had just installed a brand new system to unproven players. The man could coach. Except you are completely wrong about what Knight took over....... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970–71_Indiana_Hoosiers_men's_basketball_team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomBaby Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Madison22 said: I've read on several of our threads that it takes a new coach a long time to install a new style of play. Perhaps years. Get new players, hope you get the right players, have those new right players learn and execute, then maybe get a bit lucky. The younger the players, the harder it is. I know that every example has a counter-example. One case does not equal proof. I get that. I bring this for discussion only. Knight's Final Four team in his second year. The IU coach before Bob Knight was 4 - 17. Then Knight took over. Young team. Lots of freshman. Year one: 17 - 8. Year two: 22 - 6. Final Four. Lost to Bill Walton's UCLA powerhouse by 11 points, while UCLA went on to win the championship by 21. IU beat Kentucky earlier in the tournament. Then IU dropped 97 points on Providence to win 3rd place (they played for 3rd place back then). Before the shot clock or 3-point basket. Still a young team. Year three: 23 - 5. Year four: 31 - 1. Year five: 32 - 0. As I said, an example is not proof. For every Bob Knight, there may be 10 other coaches that support the "it takes years" theory. I hope this thread (if it becomes a thread 😀) doesn't devolve into lobbing but-what-abouts at each other. Just politely bringing this for discussion, if anyone wants to chime in. It touches on topics of patience, building a team, recruiting, expectations, growth, progress - just about everything. Still, 97 points on Providence to finish #3 in the NCAA tournament, by a defense-oriented Bob Knight team who had just installed a brand new system to unproven players. The man could coach. Sorry, but you're mistaken. Watson's last team went 17-7, not 4-17. Knight's first team had a number of veterans, including Steve Downing, Joby Wright, and John Ritter. His first team actually had a slightly worse record at 17-8 than the previous year. Of course, Watson's last team included a fellow named George McGinnis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 I hate it when someone cuts my premise to ribbons. Makes me feel like I might as well wash my car in a snowstorm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison22 Posted April 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 34 minutes ago, rico said: Except you are completely wrong about what Knight took over....... You're totally right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison22 Posted April 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 37 minutes ago, BoomBaby said: Sorry, but you're mistaken. Watson's last team went 17-7, not 4-17. Knight's first team had a number of veterans, including Steve Downing, Joby Wright, and John Ritter. His first team actually had a slightly worse record at 17-8 than the previous year. Of course, Watson's last team included a fellow named George McGinnis. Ha, you're correct, too. I misread the Wiki entry which listed someone other than Watson as the coach immediately before Knight: Jerry Oliver 1969 - 1970, 1971 4 - 17 Confusing, but I was still wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison22 Posted April 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 Sheesh, sorry for the errors, everyone. I would edit them out, but what the heck, I made them so I'll leave them. Thanks for not shredding me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue3542 Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 I think of it like a skilled trade - take carpentry/woodworking for example. It doesn't take overly long to learn how to do something like cutting dovetails or miters, but it takes a lot longer to MASTER them and execute them flawlessly. I think what we are seeing with the defense (and towards the end of the season, the offense) is that the team is close to the end of the learning stage, but patience is required while they learn to master it. UVA is a good example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlinedavid Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 12 hours ago, Long Duk Dong said: It can take some time learning the ropes. I remember when I turned 21 and I went to my first night club. After a couple of drinks a older woman who was average looking tapped me on the shoulder. I turned around, she smiled and winked and said "you're coming home with me, young man'. I froze. All I could manage was a 'yes maam'. So that was the night I also lost my virginity. But that's another story altogether..... After a couple more weekends clubbing, I got the hang of it. If picking up cougars at clubs isn't already "getting the hang of it", I don't want to be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jv1972iu Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 13 hours ago, Fiveoutofsix said: Its a totally different era and type of kids. When Coach Knight took over it was documented IU was looking for someone that would have discipline and he was able to take some athletes and have them play more fundamental. Those kids went through boot camp and took it. This IU team has to many players that are not skilled and they want a different role than the coach wants for him. How can I say this? Smith's dads comments gives me that evidence. Furthermore, this was not a good roster. Should IU of won 3-4 more games this year even with the injuries? Yes; however, I do think the future is bright. I would also add that AAU programs weren't a big part of young players lives and there wasn't the enormous emphasis to become a professional basketball player by every kid who received a scholarship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Zlinedavid said: If picking up cougars at clubs isn't already "getting the hang of it", I don't want to be right. You're forgetting that he said she was average-looking after a couple of drinks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlinedavid Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 hour ago, rogue3542 said: I think of it like a skilled trade - take carpentry/woodworking for example. It doesn't take overly long to learn how to do something like cutting dovetails or miters, but it takes a lot longer to MASTER them and execute them flawlessly. I think what we are seeing with the defense (and towards the end of the season, the offense) is that the team is close to the end of the learning stage, but patience is required while they learn to master it. UVA is a good example... And you haven't mastered anything until you acknowledge that even if you've mastered it, you'll never be perfect (as the pile of 1/8" misaligned dado cuts from this weekend sitting in my garage will attest). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlinedavid Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, FKIM01 said: You're forgetting that he said she was average-looking after a couple of drinks... Could be worse. Could have been below average after a couple of drinks. (not that that may or may not have stopped me in the past....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 29 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said: Could be worse. Could have been below average after a couple of drinks. (not that that may or may not have stopped me in the past....) Or it could have been a man....dressed as a woman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 ^^ alright let's stop the slide into inappropriate posts for this board, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 Isn't there something about 10,000 hours of practice to master a skill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 29 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: 23 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said: Isn't there something about 10,000 hours of practice to master a skill? 10,000 casts to catch a muskie, so they say. I had one in 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, rico said: 10,000 casts to catch a muskie, so they say. I had one in 5. Wilt had 10,000 casts before he... oh wait that was something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 You guy are making Hoopster nervous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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