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Mr. Smith (or should I say Mr. Ball?)


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11 hours ago, JWoolsey said:

@IndySportsPartizanif Archie is such a great coach then why do his teams always perform so poorly in big games? 

Overall

174 94 64.93%
A Level Games 23-51 31.08%
B Level Games 37-24 60.66%
     
A+B 60-75 44.44%
     
Non A+B Games 114-19 85.71%
Conference tourn nit ncaa
5-8 2-2 5-4

 

Crean's Last  6 years.

A Level Games 42-44 48.84%
B Level Games 25-10 71.43%
     
A+B 67-54

55.37%

 

conf tourn nit ncaa
5-6 0-1 6-4

 

FWIW I'm open minded going into next year so let's see what happens. 

 

Why are you comparing Creans last 6 years to Archie’s last 6? Crean was at a Power 5 school and Archie was at a mid major for 4 of those years. Archie also had to clean up Creans APR mess. So you are setting Archie up to fail in basically any comparison by he has a severe talent disadvantage to what Crean had for the 6 year periods. Numbers and stats will tell you what you want when manipulated, which is what you are doing.

Ok, that is all, carry on trolling. 

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1*f7CaAqKTP3gYnx2xDanSmQ.png

55 minutes ago, dgambill said:

My wife loved this...it hit a little too close to home for me however.

51 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Admit to having been there.  Even as recently as today. 

I had a few posts typed and ready today.  Shut everything down and took a long walk instead.

Here's to good decisions.   :cheers:

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2 minutes ago, Feathery said:

Why are you comparing Creans last 6 years to Archie’s last 6? Crean was at a Power 5 school and Archie was at a mid major for 4 of those years. Archie also had to clean up Creans APR mess. So you are setting Archie up to fail in basically any comparison by he has a severe talent disadvantage to what Crean had for the 6 year periods. Numbers and stats will tell you what you want when manipulated, which is what you are doing.

Ok, that is all, carry on trolling. 

See the source image

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1 hour ago, Feathery said:

Why are you comparing Creans last 6 years to Archie’s last 6? Crean was at a Power 5 school and Archie was at a mid major for 4 of those years. Archie also had to clean up Creans APR mess. So you are setting Archie up to fail in basically any comparison by he has a severe talent disadvantage to what Crean had for the 6 year periods. Numbers and stats will tell you what you want when manipulated, which is what you are doing.

Ok, that is all, carry on trolling. 

Actually you're wrong, Dayton is/was more of a power player in their conference than Indiana was under Crean. Dayton is always legit...before Archie and now they're good again already. If you bothered to read further you'd see that I explained all those losses came vs teams of the same level as Dayton like Rhode Island, St Joes, St Bonn, random mid-level SEC and PAC 12 teams, etc so the comparisons are completely fair. Archie inherited an excellent mid-major team full of Jr's and Sr's so his first years weren't in the same ballpark as Crean's. Crean's just as flawed as Archie and I showed, very fairly I might add, that Crean put out a product capable of beating anybody on any night

There's nothing wrong with critiquing those in charge when it's merited and you can read the topic if you want some of the reasoning. I'm sorry that I'm not telling you what you want to hear and that you don't like it. If you paid more attention then you'd have noticed that I made sure to point out on a few of occasions that he's a better coach than I anticipated, that he'll be fine even if nothing is adjusted, that I'm bullish and optimistic for next season, and that his defense is close to the level required to win a title...so yeah. I've also said that you don't fire a coach that has half of the puzzle nearly figured out so get lost with that trolling nonsense. 

I think the offensive system is broken so why not try to take a look around and see what's there to support your cause? I'm pretty sure that's how anybody with any point ever to make approach it. 

 I'd let sleeping dogs lie but I hate when certain players get isolated by fan bases and are registered as the official team boo boys while others go completely free of criticism. It annoys me to no end...players like Jordy and Hartman were immune back in the day and now players like Rob and Al are now too. People regularly went to town on Troy and Devonte and Justin get roasted on the daily now. Coaches aren't immune to a little heat and neither are the golden boys. 

I'm a procrastinator by heart so I'll kill 20-30 minutes any chance I can get goofing off.  I can very easily cook up some more explanations and examples but I think that's enough. I'm going for balanced positivity / negativity :)

 

 

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23 minutes ago, JWoolsey said:

Actually you're wrong, Dayton is/was more of a power player in their conference than Indiana was under Crean. Dayton is always legit...before Archie and now they're good again already. If you bothered to read further you'd see that I explained all those losses came vs teams of the same level as Dayton like Rhode Island, St Joes, St Bonn, random mid-level SEC and PAC 12 teams, etc so the comparisons are completely fair. Archie inherited an excellent mid-major team full of Jr's and Sr's so his first years weren't in the same ballpark as Crean's. Crean's just as flawed as Archie and I showed, very fairly I might add, that Crean put out a product capable of beating anybody on any night

There's nothing wrong with critiquing those in charge when it's merited and you can read the topic if you want some of the reasoning. I'm sorry that I'm not telling you what you want to hear and that you don't like it. If you paid more attention then you'd have noticed that I made sure to point out on a few of occasions that he's a better coach than I anticipated, that he'll be fine even if nothing is adjusted, that I'm bullish and optimistic for next season, and that his defense is close to the level required to win a title...so yeah. I've also said that you don't fire a coach that has half of the puzzle nearly figured out so get lost with that trolling nonsense. 

I think the offensive system is broken so why not try to take a look around and see what's there to support your cause? I'm pretty sure that's how anybody with any point ever to make approach it. 

 I'd let sleeping dogs lie but I hate when certain players get isolated by fan bases and are registered as the official team boo boys while others go completely free of criticism. It annoys me to no end...players like Jordy and Hartman were immune back in the day and now players like Rob and Al are now too. People regularly went to town on Troy and Devonte and Justin get roasted on the daily now. Coaches aren't immune to a little heat and neither are the golden boys. 

I'm a procrastinator by heart so I'll kill 20-30 minutes any chance I can get goofing off.  I can very easily cook up some more explanations and examples but I think that's enough. I'm going for balanced positivity / negativity :)

 

 

I'm all for criticism if done in a context that is justifiable and productive.  If one comes forward with only complaint and no solution I find that person often getting tuned out.  You have a knack for analysis of numbers.  Numbers are important and as has been said, not the most important unless you are talking Ws and Ls. More than numbers go into those W/L columns, though numbers can be a predictor, they are not the end all be all.  Again, I say nothing new with that.  What I believe is missed is the importance of cohesion.  I will expand on that.  CAM said 3 years for his system to be in place iirc (posted by another poster in this thread)?  Injuries, illness, suspension, differing preferences of personal play style (some doing their own thing rather than what coach instructs), chemistry, personnel (lack of an injury free consistent big & some would say shooters) to name a few things off the top of my head that have caused setbacks and hampered the team, CAM, and cohesion.  The whole unit must be one.  We clearly did not see that this season.  Not absolving CAM completely, but I can see the coaching acumen and effort was there.  We saw CAM ride the hot hand when it was JM, DG, or JS or anyone else.  In the not to distant past, we saw the hot hand get pulled.  We also heard CAM say players have the green light on the open 3 point shot.  If coach gives his blessing for that shot and that shot continues to not fall, I'm not sure we can fault Archie.  At some point a player must be confident and know their shot is going down in the flow of the offense.  Cohesion is important. 

This coming season, CAMs 3rd, we get to find out several things.  Was the injury bug overplayed? (Do we see more wins with the 2 biggest producers moving on while everyone else is healthy).  With more than half the team CAMs recruits, we get to see how he builds HIS team and how they function.  (Might get nailed on that one, but for the sake of this post, let's say CAM's hands were tied by the admin due to APR reasons).  With all the off season changes, not singling anyone out who has moved on (they all did don the candystripes), I see a step forward with the team (culture building-Brunk).  Let's just hope the situation that went nuclear this past season doesn't repeat itself and we all see the team respond to the opportunity and be that cohesive unit from CAM to the walkons.

TLDR: next season will not be last season.

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1 hour ago, JWoolsey said:

Actually you're wrong, Dayton is/was more of a power player in their conference than Indiana was under Crean. Dayton is always legit...before Archie and now they're good again already. If you bothered to read further you'd see that I explained all those losses came vs teams of the same level as Dayton like Rhode Island, St Joes, St Bonn, random mid-level SEC and PAC 12 teams, etc so the comparisons are completely fair. Archie inherited an excellent mid-major team full of Jr's and Sr's so his first years weren't in the same ballpark as Crean's. Crean's just as flawed as Archie and I showed, very fairly I might add, that Crean put out a product capable of beating anybody on any night

There's nothing wrong with critiquing those in charge when it's merited and you can read the topic if you want some of the reasoning. I'm sorry that I'm not telling you what you want to hear and that you don't like it. If you paid more attention then you'd have noticed that I made sure to point out on a few of occasions that he's a better coach than I anticipated, that he'll be fine even if nothing is adjusted, that I'm bullish and optimistic for next season, and that his defense is close to the level required to win a title...so yeah. I've also said that you don't fire a coach that has half of the puzzle nearly figured out so get lost with that trolling nonsense. 

I think the offensive system is broken so why not try to take a look around and see what's there to support your cause? I'm pretty sure that's how anybody with any point ever to make approach it. 

 I'd let sleeping dogs lie but I hate when certain players get isolated by fan bases and are registered as the official team boo boys while others go completely free of criticism. It annoys me to no end...players like Jordy and Hartman were immune back in the day and now players like Rob and Al are now too. People regularly went to town on Troy and Devonte and Justin get roasted on the daily now. Coaches aren't immune to a little heat and neither are the golden boys. 

I'm a procrastinator by heart so I'll kill 20-30 minutes any chance I can get goofing off.  I can very easily cook up some more explanations and examples but I think that's enough. I'm going for balanced positivity / negativity :)

 

 

You’re right, I didn’t read the rest of the thread. Your original post didn’t have enough info in it to be accurate. I’ve now read the rest of the thread. 

Statistical analysis is great and all but you need to remember context. Like young teams are inconsistent, wrong players taking the shots from 3, etc.

I agree I want to see more 3’s from the offense. However, I’m not sold on anyone outside of Green taking a 3 and he comes with a lot of flaws to his game. Saying that i think Phinisee, Durham (improves his 3pt Shooting by 7), and Damezi can be solid shooters and will be 40% plus from deep by the time they are upperclassmen. With the talent Archie had at his disposal last year, I don’t blame him for not opening it up offensively. 

Creans issues were specific styles caused him fits. It’s why he will never win a national title. He can’t beat a Syracuse zone, couldn’t at Marquette either. He also struggled against teams that would slow it down and make you play a half court game, see Wisconsin. People like to think that you can just run and gun to a championship. But in the NCAA tournament you have to be able to execute a half court offense, because good teams will take away your transition game. Crean couldn’t do that. Verdict is still out on Archie. I said I’d hold judgement on any coach until after year 3. Archie wasn’t my first, second, third, or even fourth choice, but I’m going to give him a chance.  He is young and can grow. I’d like to ask him what he has learned now that he has been in the league for 2 years. 

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3 minutes ago, PoHoosier said:

I'm all for criticism if done in a context that is justifiable and productive.  If one comes forward with only complaint and no solution I find that person often getting tuned out.  You have a knack for analysis of numbers.  Numbers are important and as has been said, not the most important unless you are talking Ws and Ls. More than numbers go into those W/L columns, though numbers can be a predictor, they are not the end all be all.  Again, I say nothing new with that.  What I believe is missed is the importance of cohesion.  I will expand on that.  CAM said 3 years for his system to be in place iirc (posted by another poster in this thread)?  Injuries, illness, suspension, differing preferences of personal play style (some doing their own thing rather than what coach instructs), chemistry, personnel (lack of an injury free consistent big & some would say shooters) to name a few things off the top of my head that have caused setbacks and hampered the team, CAM, and cohesion.  The whole unit must be one.  We clearly did not see that this season.  Not absolving CAM completely, but I can see the coaching acumen and effort was there.  We saw CAM ride the hot hand when it was JM, DG, or JS or anyone else.  In the not to distant past, we saw the hot hand get pulled.  We also heard CAM say players have the green light on the open 3 point shot.  If coach gives his blessing for that shot and that shot continues to not fall, I'm not sure we can fault Archie.  At some point a player must be confident and know their shot is going down in the flow of the offense.  Cohesion is important. 

This coming season, CAMs 3rd, we get to find out several things.  Was the injury bug overplayed? (Do we see more wins with the 2 biggest producers moving on while everyone else is healthy).  With more than half the team CAMs recruits, we get to see how he builds HIS team and how they function.  (Might get nailed on that one, but for the sake of this post, let's say CAM's hands were tied by the admin due to APR reasons).  With all the off season changes, not singling anyone out who has moved on (they all did don the candystripes), I see a step forward with the team (culture building-Brunk).  Let's just hope the situation that went nuclear this past season doesn't repeat itself and we all see the team respond to the opportunity and be that cohesive unit from CAM to the walkons.

TLDR: next season will not be last season.

Hats off to you for that post. Incredible response and it's exactly what I'm looking to get out of from the forum. I said some things that I thought you all might like to know or be made aware of and you've shown me some things that I might need to know and be aware of.

I've played way too much poker man. Doing something a million times changes the way your brain works and sees things. I'm looking at the past and figuring out the end game and the way you get there is through baby steps and eradicating mistakes that you used to make and if you really want to win big you eradicate the mistakes that everyone else is making on top of your own. That's exhausting as hell. You've looked at the present and dialed in nicely and I admire that. It's tough to do for me at this point.

Great stuff bud.

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39 minutes ago, Feathery said:

You’re right, I didn’t read the rest of the thread. Your original post didn’t have enough info in it to be accurate. I’ve now read the rest of the thread. 

Statistical analysis is great and all but you need to remember context. Like young teams are inconsistent, wrong players taking the shots from 3, etc.

I agree I want to see more 3’s from the offense. However, I’m not sold on anyone outside of Green taking a 3 and he comes with a lot of flaws to his game. Saying that i think Phinisee, Durham (improves his 3pt Shooting by 7), and Damezi can be solid shooters and will be 40% plus from deep by the time they are upperclassmen. With the talent Archie had at his disposal last year, I don’t blame him for not opening it up offensively. 

Creans issues were specific styles caused him fits. It’s why he will never win a national title. He can’t beat a Syracuse zone, couldn’t at Marquette either. He also struggled against teams that would slow it down and make you play a half court game, see Wisconsin. People like to think that you can just run and gun to a championship. But in the NCAA tournament you have to be able to execute a half court offense, because good teams will take away your transition game. Crean couldn’t do that. Verdict is still out on Archie. I said I’d hold judgement on any coach until after year 3. Archie wasn’t my first, second, third, or even fourth choice, but I’m going to give him a chance.  He is young and can grow. I’d like to ask him what he has learned now that he has been in the league for 2 years. 

Glad you got back to me. This is good stuff and I like what you're saying about the context. Let me propose another layer to that. The context is true in relation to last season as well as going into the next one so you're correct there but the things that I'm trying to get out there for people to look at transcend context. It's an ideology, approach, belief system or however you want to word it. So check out TO%...18, 18, 17, 19, 18, 18, 22, 20. Check out FT% too...66, 66, 69, 67, 69, 68, 72, 78. Check out 3pt attempted %'s. 34, 34, 38, 35, 38, 32, 29, 40.

For me that transcends context and looks to me like it's clearly a system in place. It's also indicative of the type of roster he builds. You can see him continuing that roster build / style here. Rob continues the cycle of minimal 3pt shooting and he was also poor at the line (he obviously does have the things that Archie values so I'm not ignoring that). I wouldn't consider Franklin a true shooter and Damezi shot 37% in HS which is good but doesn't translate to a definitive good shooter in college. We haven't signed a shooter in this class and might not land one eithe. I'm also looking at how Fitzner was used too. If Archie wanted more shooting then he would have ran schemes to utilize Fitzner better and placed a bigger role on Devonte?

I'm going into next season free of judgement and open minded for sure but I did think that it was worth it to put it out there where I stand. Something worth considering at least. It looks to me like a Dayton rebuild which is going to be a stressful process for me lol

I'm curious what you make of those continuous stats I mentioned? 

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By all accounts Justin will be an IU player the next two years.  Archie would not of given him the minutes he did if there was belief about the future and his value.

Selfishly, I'm excited as this is the first time I could say an IU basketball player went to the same high school as me.  

With that being said there is decent about his role.  Justin and his dad want him as a shooting guard, and IU wants him to initiate offense and rebound (more traditional 4).  Althought THERE is not any true position on the offense, Archie did not want Justin to shoot the ball.  This is where Ed Smith first started to use the voice of twitter to take shots.  He me wrote something like Archie only wants Morgan and Romeo to shoot and score.  

Obviously he thinks through passive aggressive tactics he can get Justin a larger role.  This did not help.

The joke of what he was trying to say recently about Morgan working with a trainer is a sign.  Joke!  Purdue players, butler players and his guy Crean players worked with the same trainer.  Kids with coaches like Matt Painter work with the guy.  Kids work with trainers all the time.

Ed has an agenda and it is going to take the media to question him and get it out.  Justin, please start with reducing the arc on your shot to help it be more consistent.

Ed, Archie is a known as a great coach.  Ex players and big time coaches have voiced this.  I encourage you in the BG spirit of sportmanship to sit down and iron it out.  The Watfords did it, and so did others with your guy.

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13 minutes ago, JWoolsey said:

Justin at the two!!!!!!????

That's crazy enough that I'm actually baffled enough to consider if something might be in that. 

 

Picturing Archie going full on two's only with a Rob, Justin, Al, Trayce, and Davis lineup.:panic::panic::panic:

I know parents can be blinded by the love for their children, but if Ed thinks Justin is a '2', he obviously hasn't been watching the games.  If that's where the disconnect is, there may be no saving the relationship, and it might be better for all parties to move on.  Not saying that Justin was the issue, but we CANNOT have another season derailed by internal locker room issues. 

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13 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

I know parents can be blinded by the love for their children, but if Ed thinks Justin is a '2', he obviously hasn't been watching the games.  If that's where the disconnect is, there may be no saving the relationship, and it might be better for all parties to move on.  Not saying that Justin was the issue, but we CANNOT have another season derailed by internal locker room issues. 

To me to many parents live through their kids and all they see is $$$ and can't see the kids limitations.  There is no place that Justin would ever be a 2 guard in the college game since he can't shoot outside of 15 feet.

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You've got to feel bad for the guy and the family though. You know Crean sold them on being able to showcase yourself and given freedom to play on the perimeter and that turns into you playing only as a traditional 4. Yuck,That's pretty damn rough. 

 

The 3? Ok sure maybe that might be possible. The two is just pure delusion. 

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5 minutes ago, JWoolsey said:

You've got to feel bad for the guy and the family though. You know Crean sold them on being able to showcase yourself and given freedom to play on the perimeter and that turns into you playing only as a traditional 4. Yuck,That's pretty damn rough. 

 

The 3? Ok sure maybe that might be possible. The two is just pure delusion. 

I agree. But, I'd feel worse for him if he wanted to play the perimeter but was stuck on the bench because Archie didn't think he could do it. The reality is that Smith played a ton of minutes last season and while it was at the 4, he had every opportunity to prove he could play on the perimeter. He had the ball on the perimeter a lot this season and teams literally didn't have anyone even attempt to defend him. He missed a ton of wide open shots, when he tried to penetrate he typically turned it over or took bad shots. He had a huge chance to prove he could do it. 

The answer in getting into the gym and busting all summer to improve his skills. 

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7 minutes ago, JWoolsey said:

You've got to feel bad for the guy and the family though. You know Crean sold them on being able to showcase yourself and given freedom to play on the perimeter and that turns into you playing only as a traditional 4. Yuck,That's pretty damn rough. 

 

The 3? Ok sure maybe that might be possible. The two is just pure delusion. 

Why would I feel bad for him?  Justin and his Dad can transfer.....there are a lot of Americans that just want to complain and blame others for their shortcomings.........there is a reason everyone left Justin open to take the 3

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24 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Interesting that he deleted the tweet. The guy is director of b-ball or scouting at an agency. He said there are numerous G-League guys not in the NBA because of their parents being so vocal/critical. 

Did you have any interactions with this guy, while you were employed by the Boston Celtics ? 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Interesting that he deleted the tweet. The guy is director of b-ball or scouting at an agency. He said there are numerous G-League guys not in the NBA because of their parents being so vocal/critical. 

Amazing that parents can cause trouble even at that level.  I'd love to hear a more in depth answer as to why he feels that way.

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