Leathernecks Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 9 hours ago, rico said: My point was that you used a bad example and I know all to well how the ERA stat is formulated. But you are missing out on something there when it comes to relief pitchers. And that be what they do with inherited runners. A reliever can come into a game with 2 out and the bases loaded and promptly give up a bases clearing double and the runs don't count against his ERA. There are lots of metrics out there that don't get tracked out there efficiently enough. I would guess the data the public gets is only a fraction of what professional teams actually have at their disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Leathernecks said: I would guess the data the public gets is only a fraction of what professional teams actually have at their disposal. I am sure they do. Just like the old stats, the new metrics don't tell everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlinedavid Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 22 hours ago, IU Scott said: I miss actually seeing complete games and starting pitching going more than 5 or 6 innings. One of the best games I ever watched was game 7 of the 91 World series between the Twins and the braves. The game ended 1-0 in 10 innings and Jake Morris pitched a complete game shutout. To me there seems way ore injuries today than there were in the past even though they are babying the pitchers today. Guys use to pitch 300 innings a year and probably pitched over 120 pitches a game but seemed to make it though the year. Right now the Yankees have 13 players on the DL and it is hard to figure out why injuries are up It's not the mileage that you've put on the car, it's how many miles are on it in total. The injuries, specifically when it comes to pitching, are likely attributed to the way youth sports have evolved. In my day (as in yours, I'm assuming) sports were cyclical. Baseball in the late spring/summer, football in the late summer/fall, basketball in early fall/winter. Today, you see more and more kids dedicating themselves to one sport nearly year round. With something like pitching, it's a lot of repetitive motion, placing stress on specific parts of the body. Even if youth coaches are conscious of this and institute pitch counts/limits on breaking balls, it's still a lot more additional strain. Just a random number, but if a 24 year old reached the majors in 1990 and had thrown 25,000 pitches in his lifetime, today it's probably more like 75,000. And yes, sports medicine has made huge leaps and bounds, but the ligaments in the elbow and shoulder aren't something that can be strengthened to that same degree. You can strengthen the muscles around it, and by using good form, you can keep some of the strain off of them, but these aren't large muscles that can be built up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Zlinedavid said: It's not the mileage that you've put on the car, it's how many miles are on it in total. The injuries, specifically when it comes to pitching, are likely attributed to the way youth sports have evolved. In my day (as in yours, I'm assuming) sports were cyclical. Baseball in the late spring/summer, football in the late summer/fall, basketball in early fall/winter. Today, you see more and more kids dedicating themselves to one sport nearly year round. With something like pitching, it's a lot of repetitive motion, placing stress on specific parts of the body. Even if youth coaches are conscious of this and institute pitch counts/limits on breaking balls, it's still a lot more additional strain. Just a random number, but if a 24 year old reached the majors in 1990 and had thrown 25,000 pitches in his lifetime, today it's probably more like 75,000. And yes, sports medicine has made huge leaps and bounds, but the ligaments in the elbow and shoulder aren't something that can be strengthened to that same degree. You can strengthen the muscles around it, and by using good form, you can keep some of the strain off of them, but these aren't large muscles that can be built up. Good post....but you just wait, they will have analytics on all that in a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblaz13 Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 IUFB fans in this conversation .. Did the - much closer to (the)home(team) work of .....Matt Rhea and David Ballou come to mind for anyone else here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATX_sig Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 I think to much blame is put on analytics in basketball. The rule changes that catered to guards. The players now are more multi skilled across positions. Centers shoot 3's. PF's run offenses. I'm a big fan of the spacing that is created in the game with all the 3 point shooters that teams can run out to the court. I agree with the sentiment that hurry up and chuck a 3 is not so fun to watch. The 2 best teams in basketball last year put on an unwatchable series except for the drama of it going 7 games and the fact that Houston may have knocked off the Warriors. If you like mid range basketball then watch the spurs. The spurs probably don't have the high end star talent to go to far in the playoffs but their 2 stars are not 3 point shooters. They could make the WCF or lose in Rd 1. Hopefully they last until they play GS. Baseball, maybe I can agree with analytics making it less fun to watch. Still, I have no problem watching games. Now it just seems to be more of a power game. Players are bigger, stronger. Pitchers are throwing harder and more players are swing for the fences. New ballparks are mostly designed to favor hitters. I don't mind the shifts if it helps drive down the high scoring games. Not sure that is the case. Seems to be to much offense. 11 to 7 games are fun when they happen once in a while but they happen to much for me. What impact did the lowering the mound in the late 60's/early 70's have? Did that lead to more arm injuries? I think it led to more runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 1 hour ago, ATX_sig said: I think to much blame is put on analytics in basketball. The rule changes that catered to guards. The players now are more multi skilled across positions. Centers shoot 3's. PF's run offenses. I'm a big fan of the spacing that is created in the game with all the 3 point shooters that teams can run out to the court. I agree with the sentiment that hurry up and chuck a 3 is not so fun to watch. The 2 best teams in basketball last year put on an unwatchable series except for the drama of it going 7 games and the fact that Houston may have knocked off the Warriors. If you like mid range basketball then watch the spurs. The spurs probably don't have the high end star talent to go to far in the playoffs but their 2 stars are not 3 point shooters. They could make the WCF or lose in Rd 1. Hopefully they last until they play GS. Baseball, maybe I can agree with analytics making it less fun to watch. Still, I have no problem watching games. Now it just seems to be more of a power game. Players are bigger, stronger. Pitchers are throwing harder and more players are swing for the fences. New ballparks are mostly designed to favor hitters. I don't mind the shifts if it helps drive down the high scoring games. Not sure that is the case. Seems to be to much offense. 11 to 7 games are fun when they happen once in a while but they happen to much for me. What impact did the lowering the mound in the late 60's/early 70's have? Did that lead to more arm injuries? I think it led to more runs. Where I have a problem with baseball is that most of the runs are scored by homeruns. In the first two games the Reds scored all 7 of their runs via the homerun and was still able to win both games. To me I enjoy seeing base running and seeing guys steal bases. I also like seeing the hit and run and run so you can get a guy to go from 1st to 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlinedavid Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Where I have a problem with baseball is that most of the runs are scored by homeruns. In the first two games the Reds scored all 7 of their runs via the homerun and was still able to win both games. To me I enjoy seeing base running and seeing guys steal bases. I also like seeing the hit and run and run so you can get a guy to go from 1st to 3rd. Whiteyball: get the leadoff man on, steal 2nd, sac bunt to 3rd, sac fly scores. Rinse and repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 45 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said: Whiteyball: get the leadoff man on, steal 2nd, sac bunt to 3rd, sac fly scores. Rinse and repeat. Remember one year that Tommy Herr of the cardinals batted 3rd and drove in over 100 runs and only hitting 9 homeruns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Remember one year that Tommy Herr of the cardinals batted 3rd and drove in over 100 runs and only hitting 9 homeruns Fun fact, Tommy Herr was one of my assistant coaches (basketball) in high school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Zlinedavid said: Whiteyball: get the leadoff man on, steal 2nd, sac bunt to 3rd, sac fly scores. Rinse and repeat. Earl Weaver: Get a couple of guys on and wait for a HR. Worked better for Earl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlinedavid Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 3 hours ago, rico said: Earl Weaver: Get a couple of guys on and wait for a HR. Worked better for Earl. That's kind of like choosing between the ribeye and the porterhouse: matter of personal preference. Each won 1 Series and had multiple pennants, Herzog reached the playoffs in both leagues, Weaver had more total pennants in one league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said: That's kind of like choosing between the ribeye and the porterhouse: matter of personal preference. Each won 1 Series and had multiple pennants, Herzog reached the playoffs in both leagues, Weaver had more total pennants in one league. I'll take Earl Weaver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlinedavid Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 1 minute ago, rico said: I'll take Earl Weaver. Not really a wrong choice either way. If allowed to open the menu up, I'd probably go LaRussa in front of either one, but now we're entering territory that belongs in the MLB thread.....ZD Cooper strikes again...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 8 hours ago, Zlinedavid said: Not really a wrong choice either way. If allowed to open the menu up, I'd probably go LaRussa in front of either one, but now we're entering territory that belongs in the MLB thread.....ZD Cooper strikes again...lol LOL. BTW, funny you mention LaRussa. He was probably the first manager that metrics affected job wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlinedavid Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, rico said: LOL. BTW, funny you mention LaRussa. He was probably the first manager that metrics affected job wise. Which is part of the reason I'd choose him: solid blend of metrics and gut calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Zlinedavid said: Which is part of the reason I'd choose him: solid blend of metrics and gut calls. He also left Oakland because of the very approach of metrics new ownership was taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricBoogaloo Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 On 4/21/2019 at 3:55 PM, 5fouls said: Pitchers don't pitch to contact any more. Greg Maddux used to throw 85 pitches in a complete game. Pitchers these days (especially Reds starters) seem to get to that number in the 4th or 5th inning. One of my favorite White Sox pitchers, Mark Buehrle, pitched to contact. He'd have about 40-60 pitches in the fifth inning so he could go deep in games. Didn't have the best stuff or the meanest fastball but he would put pitches in the right spot and change speeds dramatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricBoogaloo Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 Analytics are great in the sense that they provide objective knowledge of the game. Any advance in knowledge is generally a good thing. Baseball especially has run wild with it because the player interactions are mostly individual feats as opposed to team feats. The problem with analytics is when people ONLY use analytics like they're assembling a fantasy team. That info is only a piece of the puzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 14 hours ago, IU Scott said: Remember one year that Tommy Herr of the cardinals batted 3rd and drove in over 100 runs and only hitting 9 homeruns The use of analytics and that every sport is geared toward offense. Also my last point on this and that is that my main point starting this was due to IU fans not mind cheating. To me the majority of the fans who think just win at any cost is from the generation that is probably from age 18-30 who has not seen that you can win without cheating. I don't care what other fans bases think or do but I do care about the integrity of this fan base and have not liked what I have seen from it the last few year This is what you said in another thread... so you're blaming it on the younger generation that, even though they aren't the ones changing rules because they aren't the ones in power, it's their fault? That's illogical at best. So no one over the age of 30 is fine with IU cheating/bending the rules to compete gotcha. Older generation is just incredible, I mean look at the role models you all have produced: Bill Cosby, Jerry Sandusky, R Kelley, all the celebs that paid to get their kids in to colleges, Kevin Spacey, not to mention the cheaters you produced in sports Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds, ARod, Jose Canseco, etc. Should I continue with how fantastic your generation is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 15 hours ago, IU Scott said: Remember one year that Tommy Herr of the cardinals batted 3rd and drove in over 100 runs and only hitting 9 homeruns I think your generation ruined sports by introducing PEDs into it. See how lazy that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, btownqb said: I think your generation ruined sports by introducing PEDs into it. See how lazy that is? Well you are right and I could not stand that cheating as well. like I said in about 20-25 years you will be doing the same thing to the generation or 2 below you because it happens every generation. Everything seems so much better when you were younger and really had no cares in the world. My dad is 75 years old and when he was in his 30's and 40's he use to go to a lot of games and watch then on TV and today he barely watches any sports. He just does not enjoy how the games have changed and don't like what he sees on the court because it is not like what it was when he really enjoyed sports. If he watches a game everything is a travel or a foul because when he watched them those calls were called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Well you are right and I could not stand that cheating as well. like I said in about 20-25 years you will be doing the same thing to the generation or 2 below you because it happens every generation. Everything seems so much better when you were younger and really had no cares in the world. My dad is 75 years old and when he was in his 30's and 40's he use to go to a lot of games and watch then on TV and today he barely watches any sports. He just does not enjoy how the games have changed and don't like what he sees on the court because it is not like what it was when he really enjoyed sports. If he watches a game everything is a travel or a foul because when he watched them those calls were called. And you talk just as you say your Dad thinks. Don't fall into that line of thinking. And please don't think everybody should feel as you do. And fwiw sabermetrics came about in 1971. 1971? I was 4. They predate me so to speak and I am an old guy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabermetrics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Well you are right and I could not stand that cheating as well. like I said in about 20-25 years you will be doing the same thing to the generation or 2 below you because it happens every generation. Everything seems so much better when you were younger and really had no cares in the world. My dad is 75 years old and when he was in his 30's and 40's he use to go to a lot of games and watch then on TV and today he barely watches any sports. He just does not enjoy how the games have changed and don't like what he sees on the court because it is not like what it was when he really enjoyed sports. If he watches a game everything is a travel or a foul because when he watched them those calls were called. No I won't. I can adapt with change. For instance the offense I coach in football used to be 100% under center, now we're 100% in the gun... and are averaging 4-5 more points a game since the change and our overall offensive production has gone up. I used to think you couldn't be a smash mouth football team out of the shotgun which couldn't be further from the truth. We will run it down your throat from the gun. Basketball wise... skill development is at an all time high. There isn't nearly as much post/perimeter work anymore, as basically everyone gets some of both. Btw I'd say at least half the travels that were called then weren't actually travels, I would prefer the game to be "under officiated" rather than "over officiated". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 38 minutes ago, btownqb said: No I won't. I can adapt with change. For instance the offense I coach in football used to be 100% under center, now we're 100% in the gun... and are averaging 4-5 more points a game since the change and our overall offensive production has gone up. I used to think you couldn't be a smash mouth football team out of the shotgun which couldn't be further from the truth. We will run it down your throat from the gun. Basketball wise... skill development is at an all time high. There isn't nearly as much post/perimeter work anymore, as basically everyone gets some of both. Btw I'd say at least half the travels that were called then weren't actually travels, I would prefer the game to be "under officiated" rather than "over officiated". I guess we won't really agree with much so lets just agree to disagree about sports of today. When it comes to college basketball I think the main difference is that kids don't stay long enough and to me that leads to a worse product than what we saw when guys stayed 4 years. I miss seeing big guys who played with their back to the basket and I miss seeing guys take good 12-15 foot mid range shots. Being 5'8 and the only thing I could do on a basketball court is shoot the ball especially from 3 I like seeing players who can shoot from long distance. What I don't like is that teams seem to rely only on the 3 and taking the ball all the way to the basket. To me this is where analytics hurt basketball if they think the mid range shot is bad for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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