Chris Holtman at OSU vs Archie Miller at IU

[NotIThatLives]

35 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I'm often floored by the number of people that think IU should have been good, or even just better in Crean's 3rd year. 

I agree with dang near everything you post but have to question this.  I think hopes were up, like this off season that there will be improvements made and individual jumps with the addition of Brunk.  Going into that year hopes were more freshman to sophomore jumps.  The boards were hoping Jeremiah Rivers would improve but he regressed.   Then there were hopes of Guy Marc Michal.  Dude looked like a man child with some clown(may have actually been CTC or assistant) floating that he would be an NBA player one day.  I don't think anyone was coming to grips with reality that Mo Creek was a shell of himself amd then getting injured again destroyed the hope and moral of the team.  Verdell didn't mature as fast as hoped and needed for that season.   And lastly, right or wrong, Pritchard,  who showed flash and promise as a freshman continued his downward spiral of regression.  All of this added up to a worse conference record than the year before.  Lots of questioning why the offense was not being run to the players strengths.   Lots and lots and lots.  Y'all are forgetting those lengthy conversations.  

So much like this coming season,  that season was built up by a bunch of hope so's that never came to fruition.   Whether it was CTC's fault or not???

[BGleas]

4 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I agree with dang near everything you post but have to question this.  I think hopes were up, like this off season that there will be improvements made and individual jumps with the addition of Brunk.  Going into that year hopes were more freshman to sophomore jumps.  The boards were hoping Jeremiah Rivers would improve but he regressed.   Then there were hopes of Guy Marc Michal.  Dude looked like a man child with some clown(may have actually been CTC or assistant) floating that he would be an NBA player one day.  I don't think anyone was coming to grips with reality that Mo Creek was a shell of himself amd then getting injured again destroyed the hope and moral of the team.  Verdell didn't mature as fast as hoped and needed for that season.   And lastly, right or wrong, Pritchard,  who showed flash and promise as a freshman continued his downward spiral of regression.  All of this added up to a worse conference record than the year before.  Lots of questioning why the offense was not being run to the players strengths.   Lots and lots and lots.  Y'all are forgetting those lengthy conversations.  

So much like this coming season,  that season was built up by a bunch of hope so's that never came to fruition.   Whether it was CTC's fault or not???

I don't know why anyone would have thought that team would be good? Best player hurt, no senior class, 2 of the 3 best players in Crean's first class (Williams and Story) transferred out, no Guy Marc Michel (despite whether anyone thought he'd be good or not, the point guard rotation was Rivers (who was terrible, wasn't very good at Georgetown either) and Hulls (who I love, but not a point guard) and out center rotation was Pritchard and Capobianco. 

Does that sound like a good team? No veterans. No point guard. No inside presence. I think any disappointments were more on the fans than anything else. Sometimes it's not underachievement, it's just bad predictions from fans and media. 

Same with OSU Holtman's first year. Don't get me wrong, he did a good job, but I think more than anything else the media just predicted that team horribly wrong than Holtman really overachieving. 

[NotIThatLives]

7 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don't know why anyone would have thought that team would be good? Best player hurt, no senior class, 2 of the 3 best players in Crean's first class (Williams and Story) transferred out, no Guy Marc Michel (despite whether anyone thought he'd be good or not, the point guard rotation was Rivers (who was terrible, wasn't very good at Georgetown either) and Hulls (who I love, but not a point guard) and out center rotation was Pritchard and Capobianco. 

Does that sound like a good team? No veterans. No point guard. No inside presence. I think any disappointments were more on the fans than anything else. Sometimes it's not underachievement, it's just bad predictions from fans and media. 

Same with OSU Holtman's first year. Don't get me wrong, he did a good job, but I think more than anything else the media just predicted that team horribly wrong than Holtman really overachieving. 

I agree on holtmams first year.  They were obviously good and veteran.  

Fans wanted hope.  Just like this off season, almost all signs point to a similar or worse season but most are convinced on hope this and hope that.  The only promise is the defense will be top 50 if not even better (which I think they will).  All those things I rattled off were what us fans were hoping on.  It's easy now looking back and talking about rivers and Pritchard sucking but they seriously regressed.  

And the offense/system.   That was maybe the #1 conversation.  

[rico]

9 minutes ago, BGleas said:

 

Same with OSU Holtman's first year. Don't get me wrong, he did a good job, but I think more than anything else the media just predicted that team horribly wrong than Holtman really overachieving. 

Matta's last year was his worst at tOSU.  But it ain't like they were horrible, they just stumbled in conference play.  Pretty much Holtmann took over a NCAAT team.  The pieces were absolutely there for success.  And he did succeed with the hand he was dealt.  Just like us talking about Archie, let us see what Chris does when it is his team.

[BGleas]

42 minutes ago, rico said:

Matta's last year was his worst at tOSU.  But it ain't like they were horrible, they just stumbled in conference play.  Pretty much Holtmann took over a NCAAT team.  The pieces were absolutely there for success.  And he did succeed with the hand he was dealt.  Just like us talking about Archie, let us see what Chris does when it is his team.

Agree. Bates-Diop didn't play after (I think) 9 games Matta's last year, and that was a younger team (a lot of soph's and juniors) Matta's last year transitioning into a more veteran team (junior's and seniors) in Holtman's first year. Plus, Holtman had Kaleb Wesson fall into his lap as a recruit because his brother was already on the team. 

None of this is to say Holtman hasn't done well or that Archie hasn't had struggles, it's just to say that they didn't start in the same place, and that anyone picking OSU 10th or worse in the Big Ten two years ago was just wrong. They didn't have 10th or worse talent, by a long shot. 

[PoHoosier]

It seems no matter how hard you try, some cannot see reason.  With their view not only being chiseled I stone, they stretch what others have said into hyperbole making their view look like the only clear and obvious choice (attempting to make everyone else dumb for not agreeing).  I have not heard anyone say "Archie is the man" or "Archie is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I have voiced some criticism of CAM, but it was tempered with how could one have done better?  I have said it before, criticism is welcome.  I have also said if there is an ounce of merit in a pound of criticism, it's worth listening to and growing from.  When criticism comes without the landing gear down with skewed or cherry picked facts there is likely to be a crash.

It's fair to criticize CAM.  As long as it's fair.  I don't determine if it's fair, the facts do.  I tried finding where Brunk says OSU didn't recruit him.  I couldn't find that info, not saying it's not true.  That info you brought differs greatly from what is widely accepted.  That still leaves the head to head at a tie.  Does that mean I get to call your view 'sad' since Hunter to IU and Carton to OSU isn't 'killing' us?

In closing, bring a view that differs.  It's appreciated and brings great discussion, but when the approach is destined to crash and burn.  Never thought I would have anyone on ignore....

[cohete15]

On 5/14/2019 at 3:08 PM, Brass Cannon said:

He’s had the top rated class in the big ten 2 out of his 3 years. 

Archie has 2 recruiting classes. 

Archie whooped him in last year's class regardless of what rankings say. Brought in a consensus Top 5 guy, took the Ohio Mr. Basketball and got Phinisee. 

We have a 2 man class this year. We could have 2 McDs AA and not be ranked very high. If Archie NEEDED it to be another 5 man class, he would have made it that way and we would be right there in the almighty rankings that you're so fond of.