Lousiville?

[IowaHoosierFan]

How is that Louisville has recovered so quickly from what should have been a program destroying scandal?  It seems like they never missed a step and are now listed as #6 in the nbs pre-season top 25.  I know its early and they may fall out once the season starts.  But it makes me wonder what the difference is from them rebounding within a year or 2 and we seem to feel the hangover from our major program scandal (too many text messages and calls).

So how about it HSN?  What says the brain trust.  Are they lucky?  Better leadership from president to coach?  Better fan and alumni?  

I am not sure and maybe i am seeing like it isn't but something feels wrong about them being back to top of the game while we struggle to compete.

disclaimer - the views of this poster do not represent the views of anyone else and may well be stupid and misinformed.  have mercy on his soul

 

[Long Duk Dong]

This is a real good question. 

[5fouls]

The Louisville scandals never really impacted the current roster.  Most, if not all, the players mentioned in the Katina Powell scandal never signed with Louisville, or were already gone.  Brian Bowen, the face of the latest scandal, never made it on campus.

What did Indiana in was NOT the phone calls.  It was the culture of players that did not care about school and wanted to get high.  Quite simply, the culture was so bad here that we were unable to retain any players from that roster.  Louisville did not have that problem.  The majority of their roster at the time the Powell story broke had nothing to do with the scandal.  And, in reality, the self-imposed tournament ban they did after the Powell story actually helped pull the roster closer instead of pulling them apart.

And, don't discount the fact that Pitino was still there after the Powell scandal. Like him or not, him being there provided some continuity.   IU lost Sampson, and as hard is it is to believe, I just have to think that the team did not embrace Dakich.  I mean, how can anyone not get along with Dan?  

Finally, they really have not been sanctioned yet for Bowen.  That's supposedly coming out in the report in July.  Everyone in Louisville is convinced they are one of the named teams.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

What did IU in was the self-reporting followed by IU's VOLUNTARY dismantling of its entire program, leaving zero scholarship players. 

This is completely an apples-to-oranges discussion.

[slojoe]

Unfortunately it makes it seem better not to report violations, and your team will likely not be any worse off.

[milehiiu]

Just now, slojoe said:

Unfortunately it makes it seem better not to report violations, and your team will likely not be any worse off.

True. Very true. Except when the NCAA came to Illinois to investigate Bruce Pearl's allegations. And found Illinois,  that was already on probation, in violation of not reporting more violations. Which led to extended probation for our "friends" to the West of us.  Moral of the story. If your program is not clean.  Don't hide more violations.

[Zuckerkorn]

23 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

True. Very true. Except when the NCAA came to Illinois to investigate Bruce Pearl's allegations. And found Illinois,  that was already on probation, in violation of not reporting more violations. Which led to extended probation for our "friends" to the West of us.  Moral of the story. If your program is not clean.  Don't hide more violations.

Speaking of teams already on probation, this brings us back to UL.

Louisville has not had to answer for the recent addidas related crimes.  The problem is, the NCAA is so impotent that they may never be investigated.  UL had just gotten slapped for the prostitution scandal and were then implicated in paying for players.  IMO, that should put them in consideration for the "death penalty" - but then again, they'll probably skate.

[milehiiu]

21 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said:

Speaking of teams already on probation, this brings us back to UL.

Louisville has not had to answer for the recent addidas related crimes.  The problem is, the NCAA is so impotent that they may never be investigated.  UL had just gotten slapped for the prostitution scandal and were then implicated in paying for players.  IMO, that should put them in consideration for the "death penalty" - but then again, they'll probably skate.

You may not post as much as others. But when you do. Your posts are spot on. Evidenced by the fact that you have more likes than posts.  Not easy to accomplish. And I thank you for being a HSN member.

[GaloisGroupe]

You can say what you want about Pitino's extra extracurricular activities, but the dude could coach. Any player he left would have been well coached. That helps a lot. Even mediocre coaches can follow a good and do reasonably well for a couple of years because of that, e.g. coach Davis.

I am not trying to say that Mack cannot coach... Just it is easier when the players are used to structure when you come in.

 

[Chad B]

IU self reported, which was idiotic. Sampson recruited drug users and was followed by someone who thought he was Coach Knight. That did in IU. 

The NCAA’s incompetence helps UL maintain their winning ways. Former player states he was given cash by asst coach on university grounds to pay for a stripper and the NCAA evidently needs more evidence. 

[FKIM01]

I'm convinced that part of the problem is that IU is ran by some ivory tower academics that have at best, an indifferent attitude toward athletics and the powerful promotional effect they can have for a university. As a result, they rob funds from the athletic department to build a new building for international studies.

Without looking, I'll bet Louisville spends more on athletics than IU. We know they spend more on strippers and buying recruits. 

[Long Duk Dong]

It just kind of sounds like Louisville knows what their doing. Better leadership, better cpresident, AD, better coaches. While Indiana doesn't know what it's doing. Poor leadership, President, AD, coaching. 

What else is new? 

Forget post Sampson(who evedently only has bad culture at Indiana), how about post Crean? Mack, Holtman, Beard, etc. are doing better. I'm guessing Juwan Howard does better too.

IU should be changed to EU. Excuse University.

[Hoosierhoopster]

Long Duk Dong, #1 IU fan 

[5fouls]

The phone calls and self-reporting did NOT blow up IU's program.  The culture of players that Sampson recruited did.  If Jamarcus Ellis, Armon Bassett Deandre Thomas, Eli Holman, and Jordan Crawford would have been law-abiding honor students, IU would have had a very solid nucleus going into the next season.  As it was, if IU had not reported, things would have been much worse because that culture would have festered over time and then IU would have had an even bigger mess down the road.

 

 

[slojoe]

1 hour ago, Long Duk Dong said:

It just kind of sounds like Louisville knows what their doing. Better leadership, better cpresident, AD, better coaches. While Indiana doesn't know what it's doing. Poor leadership, President, AD, coaching. 

What else is new? 

Forget post Sampson(who evedently only has bad culture at Indiana), how about post Crean? Mack, Holtman, Beard, etc. are doing better. I'm guessing Juwan Howard does better too.

IU should be changed to EU. Excuse University.

LDD, you need to do some fact checking on your posts.  The UL administration recently has been corrupt which is a very mild assessment.

In July of 2016 the President of the University, James Ramsey, and the board of Trustees were fired by the Governor of Kentucky in regard to Ramsey and others pillaging the UL endowment fund.  They made questionable investments and received excessive compensation from the fund.  In other words, they were dipping into the till.

The UL athletic director, Mark Jurich, was fired for his mismanagement of the the basketball program among other things.   He's the guy who oversaw the program while UL ran a strip club brothel for recruits out of a campus dorm and off campus sites.  Then, they paid players.

And of course, Pitino let these things happen and got fired, also.  Don't forget his little Italian restaurant tryst.

Then, there's Bobby Petrino.

No thanks, I don't want any of that.

[Long Duk Dong]

35 minutes ago, slojoe said:

LDD, you need to do some fact checking on your posts.  The UL administration recently has been corrupt which is a very mild assessment.

In July of 2016 the President of the University, James Ramsey, and the board of Trustees were fired by the Governor of Kentucky in regard to Ramsey and others pillaging the UL endowment fund.  They made questionable investments and received excessive compensation from the fund.  In other words, they were dipping into the till.

The UL athletic director, Mark Jurich, was fired for his mismanagement of the the basketball program among other things.   He's the guy who oversaw the program while UL ran a strip club brothel for recruits out of a campus dorm and off campus sites.  Then, they paid players.

And of course, Pitino let these things happen and got fired, also.  Don't forget his little Italian restaurant tryst.

Then, there's Bobby Petrino.

No thanks, I don't want any of that.

Not do I. And to think that their basketball program is still Superior to ours is mind boggling 

I actually like what UK is doing with their athletics. Better basketball AND football program than ours. They are doing great things.

[milehiiu]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

The phone calls and self-reporting did NOT blow up IU's program.  The culture of players that Sampson recruited did.  If Jamarcus Ellis, Armon Bassett Deandre Thomas, Eli Holman, and Jordan Crawford would have been law-abiding honor students, IU would have had a very solid nucleus going into the next season.  As it was, if IU had not reported, things would have been much worse because that culture would have festered over time and then IU would have had an even bigger mess down the road.

 

 

Great post. And you are spot on.

[IUFan4Life]

27 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Not do I. And to think that their basketball program is still Superior to ours is mind boggling 

I actually like what UK is doing with their athletics. Better basketball AND football program than ours. They are doing great things.

Perfect! What don't you do us all a favor take your whiny sorry a$$ to BBN where you belong. You have one agenda & that's to attack everything IU!  You're a sorry excuse of a fan and more than likely, person!

[dgambill]

Let’s just be real...IU got a scratch and instead of applying a band aid we amputated the whole leg. The program was horribly mismanaged at the end of the Knight tenure and from there on out. One bad hire after another. Maybe we have the right guy in here coaching and maybe we don’t....I don’t see Louisville getting extreme ramifications from all this. Likely lose a scholarship or two and maybe a post season ban...Mack is a solid coach and he will continue to recruit well and behind the scenes I’m pretty sure there will be dirty pool.

[IU Scott]

10 hours ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Not do I. And to think that their basketball program is still Superior to ours is mind boggling 

I actually like what UK is doing with their athletics. Better basketball AND football program than ours. They are doing great things.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Hoosierhoopster]

11 hours ago, 5fouls said:

The phone calls and self-reporting did NOT blow up IU's program.  The culture of players that Sampson recruited did.  If Jamarcus Ellis, Armon Bassett Deandre Thomas, Eli Holman, and Jordan Crawford would have been law-abiding honor students, IU would have had a very solid nucleus going into the next season.  As it was, if IU had not reported, things would have been much worse because that culture would have festered over time and then IU would have had an even bigger mess down the road.

 

 

That is a fair way to look at it, from a long-term perspective.

But this discussion addresses LDD’s comical “comparison” of the basketball program.

we were 24-4 and one of the top b-ball programs in the country with that team, then IU self-reported. Then IU voluntarily dismantled its entire program. We also had all kinds of top recruits about to come in. 

Fully agree about the type of guys Sampson was recruiting and state of academics, but that’s not the same as what LDD’s post was about 

[milehiiu]

49 minutes ago, RoadToZion said:

You are nuts. 

His name is long duck dong

LOL

[5fouls]

12 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

That is a fair way to look at it, from a long-term perspective.

But this discussion addresses LDD’s comical “comparison” of the basketball program.

we were 24-4 and one of the top b-ball programs in the country with that team, then IU self-reported. Then IU voluntarily dismantled its entire program. We also had all kinds of top recruits about to come in. 

Fully agree about the type of guys Sampson was recruiting and state of academics, but that’s not the same as what LDD’s post was about 

Actually, the thread was started by IowaHoosier and my response ties back to his original question.

Yes, Ducky also provided his unique perspective, but it's not really his discussion as you imply.

[Hoosierhoopster]

18 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Actually, the thread was started by IowaHoosier and my response ties back to his original question.

Yes, Ducky also provided his unique perspective, but it's not really his discussion as you imply.

I meant my discussion which your post replied to Fouls. But yeah, Ducky has a unique perspective lol. 

[BGleas]

My opinion is that this is a complicated question. There's clearly a small segment of the fan base that simply wants the answer to be that Mack was the right hire and Archie was the wrong hire, but the answer to this topic is more about organizational infrastructure than it is whether one coach is better than the other. This is much larger than coaching. 

This is about organizational structure and strategy. I think the more we learn about how IU has operated since the Knight firing we now know that the athletic department and the university as a whole has made misstep after misstep. Louisville is in the business of winning, where with IU I'm not sure what the athletic department goals are. There's also this old school IU mentality about doing things a certain way being almost as important as winning. 

But ultimately the answer to the OP's question is that I think unfortunately IU was the guinea pig for all these other schools to learn what not to do when a scandal arrises. Look at Louisville, UNC, LSU, even Syracuse with some of their issues, etc. All these schools saw what happened at IU when they fell on the sword, and these schools learned that denying and blocking the NCAA from actually doing anything is the way to go.

Louisville's scandal was infinitely worse than IU's, but Louisville closed ranks, preserved their roster and their staff and ultimately had a very smooth transition from Pitino to Padgett and then to Mack. Padgett was under no illusion that he'd get the job ultimately, whereas with both Davis and Dakich there were hard feelings on both sides while they were interim coaches. 

IU has just simply been mismanaged for what seems like 20 years. I personally think Archie has a chance to be 'the guy', but I'm also not sure any coach currently could overcome the organizational issues that seem to be inside the IU athletic department.