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California's 'Fair Pay to Play Act'


tdhoosier

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23 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I could be way off here, but to your point about video games, etc., what if earning income tied to likeness was just for NCAA sanctioned partnerships? Sort of a licensing share for the athletes, where they received some agreed upon percentage of NCAA sanctioned licensing from video games, jersey sales, apparel, etc., but the athletes are not allowed to go seek out their own sponsorships such as car dealers, Coke commercials, etc.?

I'm not trying to propose something that restricts the athletes right, but just trying to think of a way that the athlete can at least get some fair compensation for their likeness without tearing down the entire system. 

I think that would be the right thing to do, but like most things i'm sure that'd get complicated. And while I think that having schools and/or the NCAA paying athletes who generate revenue for them is fair - it could potentially hurt the entire landscape of college athletics. There's a fine line that can't be crossed. The downside of having schools or the NCAA (who's non for profit money gets filtered to schools) being involved with any type of athlete compensations is that it would kill off non-revenue sports. In the end you are forcing an expense on athletic departments that they never have had to pay or decrease the funding they receive from the NCAA. This may be fine for schools with athletic departments that are strong financially (mainly football schools), it'd cause smaller athletic departments to make cuts. 

This is why I like the CA law. Because rather than focus on the schools/NCAA to compensate athletes, it's letting third party companies do so. No money is taken directly from college athletics, which allows athletic department budgets to remain in tact. I suppose that it could put a small dent in the NCAA's earning potential because they'd now be competing with their own athletes for endorsement dollars, but it's the best compromise that I've seen laid out on the table - IMO. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, BGleas said:

I could be way off here, but to your point about video games, etc., what if earning income tied to likeness was just for NCAA sanctioned partnerships? Sort of a licensing share for the athletes, where they received some agreed upon percentage of NCAA sanctioned licensing from video games, jersey sales, apparel, etc., but the athletes are not allowed to go seek out their own sponsorships such as car dealers, Coke commercials, etc.?

I'm not trying to propose something that restricts the athletes right, but just trying to think of a way that the athlete can at least get some fair compensation for their likeness without tearing down the entire system. 

That's something the NCAA should have considered doing years ago.  If they had there's a good chance we wouldn't be discussing the California law. 

I'm not thrilled about where college sports may be headed.   But at the same time I'm sick and tired of the NCAA's lack of enforcing and punishing the rule breakers.  I'm tired of seeing them take in huge profits at the expense of fans and athletes.   So in a way I'm glad this bill passed.   It's forcing the NCAA to do something for a change.

Go Hoosiers!!!

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3 minutes ago, Indy1987 said:

That's something the NCAA should have considered doing years ago.  If they had there's a good chance we wouldn't be discussing the California law. 

I'm not thrilled about where college sports may be headed.   But at the same time I'm sick and tired of the NCAA's lack of enforcing and punishing the rule breakers.  I'm tired of seeing them take in huge profits at the expense of fans and athletes.   So in a way I'm glad this bill passed.   It's forcing the NCAA to do something for a change.

Go Hoosiers!!!

I'm in the same boat. I can't stand how awful the NCAA is at managing it's own business. I also think it's probably the right thing to do in terms of athletes getting some more compensation, etc., but at the same time selfishly I love college sports and I also don't want to see the entire system dismantled to a place where I don't recognize it anymore. 

Richard Sherman actually sent out a tweet yesterday that his hope is that the NCAA is completely destroyed. Again, while I don't love the NCAA, I also don't want to see the whole thing go up in smoke. I don't want to see professional sports managed by colleges. That's what I have the NBA and NFL for, I'll just watch even more of that. 

There's this weird dichotomy between what is maybe (not completely even sure on that) the right thing to do for a small percent, and destroying the entire landscape as we know it. As someone that was a scholarship D2 athlete, I'm grateful to the NCAA. I was provided an amazing opportunity to extend my basketball career 4 extra years, meeting some lifelong friends and have amazing experiences, all while saving my parents some coin while I got my degree. I'd hate to see a system decimated that provides a ton of benefit to hundreds of thousands of student-athletes, for the sake of the top 1%.  

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1 minute ago, BGleas said:

I'm in the same boat. I can't stand how awful the NCAA is at managing it's own business. I also think it's probably the right thing to do in terms of athletes getting some more compensation, etc., but at the same time selfishly I love college sports and I also don't want to see the entire system dismantled to a place where I don't recognize it anymore. 

Richard Sherman actually sent out a tweet yesterday that his hope is that the NCAA is completely destroyed. Again, while I don't love the NCAA, I also don't want to see the whole thing go up in smoke. I don't want to see professional sports managed by colleges. That's what I have the NBA and NFL for, I'll just watch even more of that. 

There's this weird dichotomy between what is maybe (not completely even sure on that) the right thing to do for a small percent, and destroying the entire landscape as we know it. As someone that was a scholarship D2 athlete, I'm grateful to the NCAA. I was provided an amazing opportunity to extend my basketball career 4 extra years, meeting some lifelong friends and have amazing experiences, all while saving my parents some coin while I got my degree. I'd hate to see a system decimated that provides a ton of benefit to hundreds of thousands of student-athletes, for the sake of the top 1%.  

Very well said and how I feel because I don't want to see everything blown up for 1% of the total athletes involved.  At least in basketball most of this might go away if they just allowed those 10-20 kids a year who wants to go straight to the NBA instead of going to college.

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On 10/1/2019 at 5:08 PM, tdhoosier said:

You are very pleasant. 

For the 10,000 time this law doesn’t allow schools to pay for athletes yet you continue to argue that they will somehow be able to. You are citing one random senator with an opinion - who knows if that has traction.

And yes - it already happens. And because it already happens and the hierarchy has been set then I think the athletes should be able to make money off their NLI. 

AND again, it doesn’t matter if Indiana has or doesn’t have money because Indiana won’t be paying for the recruits. If you are basing your argument off what the OSU AD said when he cited his alumni base as an advantage. Guess who has the second biggest alumni base in the country behind Penn St and ahead of OSU? Indiana. 

And if there is no NCAA??

There is no reality where anything like this passes nation wide and the NCAA still exists in its current form.

Who is going to enforce the law? If a USC player gets money from the athletic department, whats California going to do? Fine the player and or USC? That's about all they can do. The player will still play in games and USC won't get any bans or championships taken down. There is no real penalty for the athletic department to pay these kids once the NCAA is gone. Risk it and pay the fine. Nobody is going to go to jail over this law. 

And for IU's huge alumni base.....you are right....but.....

https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/biggest-college-alumni-networks-in-us.html/

New York University has the 11th biggest alumni base......and we all know how large their athletic department is.

How does Alabama get all its money? LSU? Notre Dame? Auburn? Georgia?

Its not from the alumni base.

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3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Very well said and how I feel because I don't want to see everything blown up for 1% of the total athletes involved.  At least in basketball most of this might go away if they just allowed those 10-20 kids a year who wants to go straight to the NBA instead of going to college.

I hear you, though I don't think that really solves anything. You'd still have the NCAA, schools and sponsors making millions/billions. It won't stop the LeBron's, Sherman's, agents, etc., from wanting the athletes to get paid, which I'm not saying is even wrong. 

It is interesting to me, that while again allowing athletes to profit off their images/likeness may be the right thing to do, some of the loudest voices in the movement (LeBron, Darren Heitner, etc.) are people that stand to gain millions off it, but nobody is talking about that. I'm not saying LeBron's heart isn't in the right place, but let's also not act like LeBron doesn't stand to gain from this. LeBron is a business man first and foremost and he has an agency that stands to represent a lot of these guys. He's looking to get a piece of the NCAA pie. 

Same with Darren Heitner. Not sure if everyone knows his, but he's a lawyer/agent that's very active on Twitter, and is sponsoring a bill with a Florida politician to mirror the CA bill. Again, maybe Heitner's heart is in the right place, but let's not act like he doesn't have a lot to gain if college athletes have access to sponsorship deals. 

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1 minute ago, BGleas said:

I hear you, though I don't think that really solves anything. You'd still have the NCAA, schools and sponsors making millions/billions. It won't stop the LeBron's, Sherman's, agents, etc., from wanting the athletes to get paid, which I'm not saying is even wrong. 

It is interesting to me, that while again allowing athletes to profit off their images/likeness may be the right thing to do, some of the loudest voices in the movement (LeBron, Darren Heitner, etc.) are people that stand to gain millions off it, but nobody is talking about that. I'm not saying LeBron's heart isn't in the right place, but let's also not act like LeBron doesn't stand to gain from this. LeBron is a business man first and foremost and he has an agency that stands to represent a lot of these guys. He's looking to get a piece of the NCAA pie. 

Same with Darren Heitner. Not sure if everyone knows his, but he's a lawyer/agent that's very active on Twitter, and is sponsoring a bill with a Florida politician to mirror the CA bill. Again, maybe Heitner's heart is in the right place, but let's not act like he doesn't have a lot to gain if college athletes have access to sponsorship deals. 

This times 10....

Just add the shoe companies and ESPN to the list.

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3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I hear you, though I don't think that really solves anything. You'd still have the NCAA, schools and sponsors making millions/billions. It won't stop the LeBron's, Sherman's, agents, etc., from wanting the athletes to get paid, which I'm not saying is even wrong. 

It is interesting to me, that while again allowing athletes to profit off their images/likeness may be the right thing to do, some of the loudest voices in the movement (LeBron, Darren Heitner, etc.) are people that stand to gain millions off it, but nobody is talking about that. I'm not saying LeBron's heart isn't in the right place, but let's also not act like LeBron doesn't stand to gain from this. LeBron is a business man first and foremost and he has an agency that stands to represent a lot of these guys. He's looking to get a piece of the NCAA pie. 

Same with Darren Heitner. Not sure if everyone knows his, but he's a lawyer/agent that's very active on Twitter, and is sponsoring a bill with a Florida politician to mirror the CA bill. Again, maybe Heitner's heart is in the right place, but let's not act like he doesn't have a lot to gain if college athletes have access to sponsorship deals. 

To me this still just is about a small hand full of players that this rule really will effect.  Also a lot of the money the NCAA brings in goes to the other divisions of athletics and helps support those programs.  Like I said before listening to Greg Sheehen talks about how much money it takes to even support these programs plus it helps with all the travel expenses of the smaller sports as well.

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

To me this still just is about a small hand full of players that this rule really will effect.  Also a lot of the money the NCAA brings in goes to the other divisions of athletics and helps support those programs.  Like I said before listening to Greg Sheehen talks about how much money it takes to even support these programs plus it helps with all the travel expenses of the smaller sports as well.

I don't know that I agree with that. While the 8th man IU's bench doesn't stand to gain hundreds of thousands of dollars in sponsorship deals, they will still benefit off this deal. Take a guy like Damezi Anderson, no he's not going to get a sponsorship deal worth a ton of money most likely, but he could make a few grand hosting a summer bball camp in his hometown if this goes through. Things like that. 

Even if you let the top recruits go to the NBA right from high school, it doesn't take the pie of money away that people want their hands on. It would just be the next tier of players down getting the larger deals. Instead of Langford getting that money because he's already in the NBA, a guy like Juwan Morgan would get it. There would still be 'stars' in college basketball and there would still be a ton of money for players and agents to get.  

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14 minutes ago, JugRox said:

And if there is no NCAA??

There is no reality where anything like this passes nation wide and the NCAA still exists in its current form.

Who is going to enforce the law? If a USC player gets money from the athletic department, whats California going to do? Fine the player and or USC? That's about all they can do. The player will still play in games and USC won't get any bans or championships taken down. There is no real penalty for the athletic department to pay these kids once the NCAA is gone. Risk it and pay the fine. Nobody is going to go to jail over this law. 

And for IU's huge alumni base.....you are right....but.....

https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/biggest-college-alumni-networks-in-us.html/

New York University has the 11th biggest alumni base......and we all know how large their athletic department is.

How does Alabama get all its money? LSU? Notre Dame? Auburn? Georgia?

Its not from the alumni base.

All I can say is that I think you are jumping to extremes. The first extreme was that colleges will be able to play for athletes and now its: there will be no NCAA. If that's what happens then I can't argue with you, but there's no real indication that's where this is all going to lead. Especially because the law specifically says that colleges STILL can't pay for kids and they are working DIRECTLY with the NCAA to put together the final details. 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Very well said and how I feel because I don't want to see everything blown up for 1% of the total athletes involved.  At least in basketball most of this might go away if they just allowed those 10-20 kids a year who wants to go straight to the NBA instead of going to college.

This is where I don't believe you are accurate. This is going to affect 100% of the athletes and I'll bet you that waaaay more than 1% take advantage of it. If you don't want to believe me then you can take a look at the numerous positive articles being written about it by major publications. Numerous female athletes were lobbying on this bill's behalf. We tend (myself included) look at this through the scope of men's football and basketball, but because those sports have created recruiting cesspools, they are ruining it for everybody else. We are talking about $1,000,000 endorsement deals for a basketball player, while being completely blind to the smaller world of other sports where athletes could tend to make a few thousand off their NLI. We are focusing on Nike and Adidas, when there are other niches of successful companies for other sports. What about Mikasa for Volleyball, TYR for swimming, GK Elite for gymnastics, etc.? Sure they aren't as big as the huge shoe companies but they still market with athletes. And I guarantee you there are tens of thousands of little gymnasts who look up to Kaetlyn Ohashi even though you might not know who that is. Look at Tyra Buss - she holds basketball training sessions to make money and she's been out of the spotlight for 2 years - imagine what she could've done while attending IU. 

I mentioned before that I coach swimming. You could not believe at what an early age brand recognition starts. You would not believe the money parent's fork up for their kids to attend 3 hour swim camps hosted by olympians or ones that are instructed by D1 college athletes (who of course volunteer their time). You would not believe how many instagram followers and YouTube subscribers these athletes have. They might not be as popular nationally as Zion Williamson but they do have a base of followers within their own sports and there is an opportunity for them to make money. 

I look back and laugh how long I could make the $2-$3,000 I made in the summer stretch almost 2 full semesters. It may not seem like as much anymore, but think back to when you were in college and how much $1,000 would mean to you back then? If you could make $500 and host a camp on the weekend, wouldn't you? Shouldn't you be able to? These athletes don't have time to work - they are either practicing, competing, going to classes or studying. Any cash on the side is most likely coming from their families or on loan from a credit card company. 

 

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On 10/3/2019 at 9:52 AM, NotIThatLives said:

I'm leaning towards telling Cali and new York to go fly kites and form their own league.  They are really good at budgets anyways so I'm sure they will figure all this out.  

and south carolina, florida and the other 10 states working on the same legislation? that's a lot of kites

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On 10/3/2019 at 10:04 AM, hoosierhoosier said:

If a kid's likeness is represented in a video game, or some licensed NCAA product, I think they kid should get paid something.

BUT, you don't have to be Nostradamus to foresee a "bidding war" among schools.  If that happens what is a kid going to do with thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars....again you don't have to be Nostradamus to see that it is going to be blown on dumb things.  Maybe, the money earned has to go into a fund that will pay at age 25 or 30?

I can see both sides, but if not setup right it will get ugly fast.

even if it is "set up right" it's going to get ugly fast. also, who is going to intercept the money earned by the athletes to set aside in a fund? no one will because no one can

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21 hours ago, Indy1987 said:

That's something the NCAA should have considered doing years ago.  If they had there's a good chance we wouldn't be discussing the California law. 

I'm not thrilled about where college sports may be headed.   But at the same time I'm sick and tired of the NCAA's lack of enforcing and punishing the rule breakers.  I'm tired of seeing them take in huge profits at the expense of fans and athletes.   So in a way I'm glad this bill passed.   It's forcing the NCAA to do something for a change.

Go Hoosiers!!!

be careful what you wish for. you're sick and tired of the ncaa not punishing rule breakers now? well, just wait until the genie is let out of this bottle because there will no longer be any rules

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21 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Very well said and how I feel because I don't want to see everything blown up for 1% of the total athletes involved.  At least in basketball most of this might go away if they just allowed those 10-20 kids a year who wants to go straight to the NBA instead of going to college.

they are going to allow those kids to go pro or to the nba. on the flip side, a lot of those players will stand to make more money playing college than pro

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20 hours ago, BGleas said:

I don't know that I agree with that. While the 8th man IU's bench doesn't stand to gain hundreds of thousands of dollars in sponsorship deals, they will still benefit off this deal. Take a guy like Damezi Anderson, no he's not going to get a sponsorship deal worth a ton of money most likely, but he could make a few grand hosting a summer bball camp in his hometown if this goes through. Things like that. 

Even if you let the top recruits go to the NBA right from high school, it doesn't take the pie of money away that people want their hands on. It would just be the next tier of players down getting the larger deals. Instead of Langford getting that money because he's already in the NBA, a guy like Juwan Morgan would get it. There would still be 'stars' in college basketball and there would still be a ton of money for players and agents to get.  

the 8th man on the bench could easily make hundreds of thousands. you are assuming much of the way rosters are made stays the same. high school players will have agents who will determine where his client can make the most money. consider the 8th man at duke. he was probably a 5 or high 4 star in his own right. that will be worth a lot. at many schools every basketball player on the roster will have an "endorsement" contract. these contracts will be six figures or more per season. and if a player performs beyond expectations, he and his agent will expect a big bump in his contract, just like in the nba. and if he doesn't get it, his agent will find him a better one at another school. i understand that money will not come from the school, but rather from someone with a vested interest. that interest could be an emotional one from a wealthy fan, or a financial one from a business entity that stands to make money on the deal.

you think there are a lot of transfers now? just wait until this new law becomes the law of the land. half the roster will turn over every year like it does in the nba. then politicians will challenge the ncaa on transfer limits and will win in the courts. college football and basketball will be ruined.

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20 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

you may have noticed that none of the basketball coaches came out against this proposal when asked at their big ten media day this week. no matter what the coaches think about it, it would be career suicide to come out against it because it will cripple their recruiting

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1 hour ago, coachv said:

and south carolina, florida and the other 10 states working on the same legislation? that's a lot of kites

I'm guessing power 5 breaks away.   I asked earlier what about d 2 and 3.  So much unknown,  so much money.  They better get ahead of this.  Lots of talkimg heads saying things won't cha be considerably.  Don't see how not.  

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1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

I'm guessing power 5 breaks away.   I asked earlier what about d 2 and 3.  So much unknown,  so much money.  They better get ahead of this.  Lots of talkimg heads saying things won't cha be considerably.  Don't see how not.  

I would hate to see the power 5 break away especially in basketball because it would ruin the tournament.  I don't want to see a 1 vs 16 seed of Duke vs Minnesota so anything that takes away from the magic of the tournament would be terrible.

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Just now, IU Scott said:

I would hate to see the power 5 break away especially in basketball because it would ruin the tournament.  I don't want to see a 1 vs 16 seed of Duke vs Minnesota so anything that takes away from the magic of the tournament would be terrible.

How would they even do the tournament honestly? Would you just let the top 32 and let them duke it out?  That would be pretty boring I would rather have that as a holiday tournament.

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2 hours ago, coachv said:

be careful what you wish for. you're sick and tired of the ncaa not punishing rule breakers now? well, just wait until the genie is let out of this bottle because there will no longer be any rules

You're assuming rules and guidelines won't be created.  We have no idea what the Ncaa will come up with to save itself.    Maybe they will have team income caps, limits on player income, reduced rosters, reduced or no scholarships,  increased athlete academic requirements, etc...  We just don't know.

Go Hoosiers!!!

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3 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

How would they even do the tournament honestly? Would you just let the top 32 and let them duke it out?  That would be pretty boring I would rather have that as a holiday tournament.

Have no idea how they would do it but I would not be as interested in it, that is for sure.  Even when the tournament was 32 teams back in the day it took all of the conference winners and not just schools form the big conferences.

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4 minutes ago, Indy1987 said:

You're assuming rules and guidelines won't be created.  We have no idea what the Ncaa will come up with to save itself.    Maybe they will have team income caps, limits on player income, reduced rosters, reduced or no scholarships,  increased athlete academic requirements, etc...  We just don't know.

Go Hoosiers!!!

the kids would have to get people to help them do their taxes since that money will be taxed.

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1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

I'm guessing power 5 breaks away.   I asked earlier what about d 2 and 3.  So much unknown,  so much money.  They better get ahead of this.  Lots of talkimg heads saying things won't cha be considerably.  Don't see how not.  

The Power 5 breaking away has been talked about long before this bill came up.   It's a possibility for sure since those are the schools bringing in the majority of the money for the Ncaa.  It would definitely change the landscape of college sports.

Go Hoosiers!!!

 

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