Depth

[DWB]

After reading several threads on various topics, it's clear that we all have opinions on most, if not all the players...as we should. Some of the threads "evolved" into off topic comments, which isn't terminal, just the way it happens some times.

So I'd like to start this "Depth" topic in order to let us all opine on any/all the players.

Personally, I LOVE the depth, and perhaps best balance of talent and (for lack of a better word) "appropriate" players for the positions on the team. We're not asking a 6-7 forward, to play the 5 spot for the whole season like Morgan did (he may have been 6-8 in heels). We've got Joey, De'Ron, and Race & TJD if needed, that can play the 5. IMO TJD is better suited for the 4, but is talented enough to play the 5 if needed.

Same thought process on the other 4 spots. We've got talented guys that are appropriate for their respective positions. The question is can CAM get them motivated enough to play the way he wants the game to be played. I think he can, because his recruits (for the most part) fit the type of value system, work ethic, and talent that he's looking for. (IMO)

I'm a real believer in this team. We may not have a superstar (which is OK by me), but I think we have 11 guys that can play with anybody, if they play together and play smart. With the talent level being more balanced than past years, Archie has the luxury to subbing anytime he feels the need without a significant drop off in talent.

Obviously, I could be completely wrong (wouldn't be the first or last time), but after watching IU bball for 50 years, you get a sense of what is good, bad, and ugly. So far, I'm seeing a lot of good in this team. And until they prove otherwise, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[BGleas]

I feel like depth is one of those weird things that comes up around this time every season. We always swear that this is the deepest team IU has had in years and quite often it doesn't really materialize. Depth is really dependent on the drop off or lack thereof from the frontline players to their backups.  

Is Aarman Franklin capable of playing the 2 if Durham or Green go down? Is there a drop off? If so, how much? Let's say Hunter is the real deal. If he has to miss a game here or there, is the drop off to Franklin and/or Damezi Anderson a big one? Can Smith really play the 3 if he has too?

When Phinisee is out or if he has to miss any time, how much of a drop off is there at the point guard spot with Durham or Green filling in?

It seems like we have a ton of guys and good depth, but we really don't know what we have in Franklin, Anderson, Race Thompson, Brunk, even Hunter, etc. We've got 'guys', but how good are they and how ready are they?

[bluegrassIU]

It really is a team where we have no idea what we have.

Hunter, Brunk and TJD additions can make.us really good amd really deep.

Yet all three are wild cards because we just do not know.

Gonma be interesting, I am optimistic as a fan. But also have no idea what to expecr.

[NCHoosier32]

this is where i always argue that you don't need to play more than 9-10 in close games.  the only thing that makes depth matter a lot are injuries.  if we stay healthy, we have plenty of depth.  

[milehiiu]

Depth helps more than just injury.  Depth helps in terms of fouls.  Either in keeping a player from fouling out.  And saving him for crunch time.  Or having quality coming in, when and if the guy in front of him fouls out. 

"Give me depth, or give me death".   LOL

[Seeking6]

8 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

It really is a team where we have no idea what we have.

Hunter, Brunk and TJD additions can make.us really good amd really deep.

Yet all three are wild cards because we just do not know.

Gonma be interesting, I am optimistic as a fan. But also have no idea what to expecr.

Think I've mentioned her before in other threads but my aunt is approaching 80 and we meet for lunch once a week. No matter what the discussion is it always ends up with her asking about the team. Met with her yesterday and your post is exactly what I told her. Plenty of unknowns but unlike my feeling towards the end of last season I told her the future (specifically depth) seems to be coming together. Hopefully it translates to W's. 

 

[IU Scott]

I think when people talk about depth and how it will help I think most are talking if the team is healthy.  I think they look and see that all 11 players can play and how we can use them all during a game.  They see where we could keep subbing  kids in and out and keep them fresh instead of thinking how depth will be effected by injuries.  To me even if we are healthy I don't want to see the rotation more than 9 in a game because I don't think playing 11 kids in a game would be effective.

[milehiiu]

^^^ Archie has talked about not going deep into his bench. Or having a full compliment of scholarships.  Both things I can't agree with. Particularly when and if we have an abnormal amount of injuries, like we had last year.  Fortunately, Archie is getting players who have said publicly that they don't mind coming off the bench, when or if needed.

 

[Hoosierinbham]

2 hours ago, milehiiu said:

Depth helps more than just injury.  Depth helps in terms of fouls.  Either in keeping a player from fouling out.  And saving him for crunch time.  Or having quality coming in, when and if the guy in front of him fouls out. 

"Give me depth, or give me death".   LOL

Great point on fouls, specifically with bigs. Do you think guys like Caleb Wesson are excited about the prospect of facing Davis, Brunk, and TJD?  It allows our guys to stay aggressive and play physical. Think of how many times last yearJuwan had to play passive defense at the bucket because he had two or three fouls, or because he was just plain exhausted. This is where depth, especially down low, is huge. 

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

^^^ Archie has talked about not going deep into his bench. Or having a full compliment of scholarships.  Both things I can't agree with. Particularly when and if we have an abnormal amount of injuries, like we had last year.  Fortunately, Archie is getting players who have said publicly that they don't mind coming off the bench, when or if needed.

 

I have no problem not having all of the scholarships being used.  I think it leads to some unhappy kids not playing and it will lead to some problems within the team and they will transfer.  Unless you are a fast break and pressing team I don't see a need to use more than 8 or 9 players throughout. the game.

[DWB]

I wouldn't be surprised to see only 7-9 players in games. But I see our depth (or at least perceived depth at this point) as giving Archie to really create some match up problems with anybody. Having 3-4 bigs to use for an opponent with a big line up, and 4 guards to use for smaller teams (barbell example) gives us an advantage IMO. I suspect that if Franklin, TJD, Joey demonstrate they can play defense, they'll be used regularly.

I wouldn't be surprised to see multiple starting line ups, based on the match ups.

Plus you have good back ups for injuries or foul trouble as stated above.

[milehiiu]

46 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I have no problem not having all of the scholarships being used.  I think it leads to some unhappy kids not playing and it will lead to some problems within the team and they will transfer.  Unless you are a fast break and pressing team I don't see a need to use more than 8 or 9 players throughout. the game.

Unhappy kids at the end of the bench, was one reason Coach Miller gave when he first came to IU for not filling out the full amount of scholarships allowed.  As I said. I am not a fan of not using all of the allotted scholarships. If an end of bench player is upset about the PT he is getting. I say. Do something about it, besides transferring.  First of all, Coach thought you were good enough to honor you with a scholarship.  Prove to him he was not wrong.  Step up your game. 

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, milehiiu said:

Unhappy kids at the end of the bench, was one reason Coach Miller gave when he first came to IU for not filling out the full amount of scholarships allowed.  As I said. I am not a fan of not using all of the allotted scholarships. If an end of bench player is upset about the PT he is getting. I say. Do something about it, besides transferring.  First of all, Coach thought you were good enough to honor you with a scholarship.  Prove to him he was not wrong.  Step up your game. 

Nice in theory but that is not the way kids thinks today

[milehiiu]

46 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Nice in theory but that is not the way kids thinks today

Well. There is at least one.Geronimo. Who has said he does not care sitting on the bench. And has said he is willing to do what ever it takes to win.

But, I understand what you are saying.   We need more Geronimo's. 

[Parakeet Jones]

It's deja vu all over again.  It's the preseason and we are talking about how deep we are.  I really try to stay positive, but our depth is the one area where I am without question in a "I'll believe it when I see it," place.  

[5fouls]

11 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Well. There is at least one.Geronimo. Who has said he does not care sitting on the bench. And has said he is willing to do what ever it takes to win.

But, I understand what you are saying.   We need more Geronimo's. 

I think Geronimo said he did not mind coming off the bench.  Coming off the bench and playing 15 minutes a game is a lot different than never getting off the bench at all.

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I think Geronimo said he did not mind coming off the bench.  Coming off the bench and playing 15 minutes a game is a lot different than never getting off the bench at all.

Agree. The context to that comment, at least how I interpreted it, was that he was saying he doesn't mind coming off the bench his freshmen season, and 'coming off the bench' implies that you're actually coming off it, as in you're in the regular rotation. If Geronimo is the 12th man at the end of his sophomore season I'd bet he's not going to be happy. 

[tdhoosier]

13 hours ago, BGleas said:

I feel like depth is one of those weird things that comes up around this time every season. We always swear that this is the deepest team IU has had in years and quite often it doesn't really materialize. Depth is really dependent on the drop off or lack thereof from the frontline players to their backups.  

Is Aarman Franklin capable of playing the 2 if Durham or Green go down? Is there a drop off? If so, how much? Let's say Hunter is the real deal. If he has to miss a game here or there, is the drop off to Franklin and/or Damezi Anderson a big one? Can Smith really play the 3 if he has too?

When Phinisee is out or if he has to miss any time, how much of a drop off is there at the point guard spot with Durham or Green filling in?

It seems like we have a ton of guys and good depth, but we really don't know what we have in Franklin, Anderson, Race Thompson, Brunk, even Hunter, etc. We've got 'guys', but how good are they and how ready are they?

Guilty. I did this last year and jinxed everything. Sorry about that HSN. Don’t blame Archie  Blame me  

That said, if all those injuries didn’t happen I still maintain that we would’ve had 3-5 more wins (possibly more), been in the tournament and everything wouldn’t be looking so uncertain. 

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, tdhoosier said:

Guilty. I did this last year and jinxed everything. Sorry about that HSN. 

That said, if all those injuries didn’t happen I still maintain that we would’ve had 3-5 more wins (possibly more), been in the tournament and everything wouldn’t be looking so uncertain. 

Not to turn this thread into another debate about last season, but I completely agree. I've been very vocal in my opinion that the biggest reason last season was a disappointment is because of the injuries. I truly believe that if Hunter, Langford and Phinisee don't get hurt/Hunter's condition that IU would have been a NCAA Tournament lock, the season would have been deemed a success and everyone would be fully aboard the Archie train. 

I'd say IU wins most of these games without those key injuries: @Ark, @Rutgers, Purdue at home, Ohio State at home, and both Iowa games. 

Just for one example, Damezi Anderson played 26 minutes in the first Arkansas game. Imagine if those minutes went to a healthy Jerome Hunter? IU lost that game by 1 point on a missed tip-in, bunny layup from Davis. 

Those games would have had IU at 23-9 heading into the BTT. 

[IU Scott]

40 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Well. There is at least one.Geronimo. Who has said he does not care sitting on the bench. And has said he is willing to do what ever it takes to win.

But, I understand what you are saying.   We need more Geronimo's. 

Like others have said that there is a difference of coming off the bench and sitting the bench.  If he comes in and plays 16-20 minutes a game his first two years then he will be fine with it.  If all he does is come off the bench during mop up time in those first couple of years he won't stay for 4 years.

[milehiiu]

46 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree. The context to that comment, at least how I interpreted it, was that he was saying he doesn't mind coming off the bench his freshmen season, and 'coming off the bench' implies that you're actually coming off it, as in you're in the regular rotation. If Geronimo is the 12th man at the end of his sophomore season I'd bet he's not going to be happy. 

Well. You know I like and respect you.  However, IMHO. That goes back to my original statement.  If you are the guy that has been blessed with a scholarship to Indiana University, because Coach saw something that he valued in your game.  And you are unhappy with the playing time you are getting. There must be a reason for that.  Then have a private session with coach to find out why, and what you can work on to improve your chances of getting more PT.  In other words. Don't take a defeatist attitude. But, rather challenge yourself to do better.

It can be done.  Heck. We've had walkon's  in the past, who worked their butts off. Earned a scholarship over time. And eventually started some games. 

[IU Scott]

41 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Well. You know I like and respect you.  However, IMHO. That goes back to my original statement.  If you are the guy that has been blessed with a scholarship to Indiana University, because Coach saw something that he valued in your game.  And you are unhappy with the playing time you are getting. There must be a reason for that.  Then have a private session with coach to find out why, and what you can work on to improve your chances of getting more PT.  In other words. Don't take a defeatist attitude. But, rather challenge yourself to do better.

It can be done.  Heck. We've had walkon's  in the past, who worked their butts off. Earned a scholarship over time. And eventually started some games. 

Since there are way more than 700 transfers a year I don' think to many kids think that way any longer.

[milehiiu]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Since there are way more than 700 transfers a year I don' think to many kids think that way any longer.

All kinds of reasons for transfers.  Coaching changes, etc.  Yeah, Grant Gelon got cut by Coach Miller. But, Grant has transferred, not once, but twice since then. Due to coaching changes. If Coach Miller is not cutting me.  I am staying. And proving to him that he did not make a mistake by offering me a scholarship, by finding out  what I can do to earn more PT.  And working on it... rather than walking away.  Walking away is a defeatist attitude, IMHO. 

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, milehiiu said:

Well. You know I like and respect you.  However, IMHO. That goes back to my original statement.  If you are the guy that has been blessed with a scholarship to Indiana University, because Coach saw something that he valued in your game.  And you are unhappy with the playing time you are getting. There must be a reason for that.  Then have a private session with coach to find out why, and what you can work on to improve your chances of getting more PT.  In other words. Don't take a defeatist attitude. But, rather challenge yourself to do better.

It can be done.  Heck. We've had walkon's  in the past, who worked their butts off. Earned a scholarship over time. And eventually started some games. 

Completely agree, and I wish more kids did that. It's just not the norm though, and it's very rare for a top 100 kid. 

I actually almost did the reverse in my playing days. I was a 4-year starter, pretty much played 30mpg from the start, but I seriously thought about transferring to another school in our conference for less playing time after my junior year. Our team wasn't very good and our coach was just a horrible coach (great guy off the court, couldn't coach himself out of a paper bag though). One of the better programs in our division had a coach I really liked. Liked his style, knew he was a really good coach and his players loved him. I knew I most likely wound't start there because they had a guy at my position, didn't know for sure, but the chances would have been less probably, but I just wanted to win again, even if it meant a lesser role.

Ultimately, I stayed because of the relationships I had built at my school. The lifelong friends you make in college, etc. I didn't want to start over for just one year.  

[IU Scott]

20 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

All kinds of reasons for transfers.  Coaching changes, etc.  Yeah, Grant Gelon got cut by Coach Miller. But, Grant has transferred, not once, but twice since then. Due to coaching changes. If Coach Miller is not cutting me.  I am staying. And proving to him that he did not make a mistake by offering me a scholarship, by finding out  what I can do to earn more PT.  And working on it... rather than walking away.  Walking away is a defeatist attitude, IMHO. 

I see where you are coming from but that is not what these kids are thinking today.  They are impatient and if they don't see playing time right away they leave for the greener pasture.