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34 minutes ago, Coach Robby said:

Totally disagree. This is only his 2nd cycle of his own recruits. We’re picked low due to what we lost vs what’s coming in. He’s still 2 years away from his seat even being warm. And I hope it does not get warm. 

I’m willing to give him 4 years of his recruits and his system before making any decision. 

I truly believe. The predictions for where we will finish this year. Are based on last year's performance. Without any recognition as to why.. the injuries. 

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1 hour ago, Coach Robby said:

Totally disagree. This is only his 2nd cycle of his own recruits. We’re picked low due to what we lost vs what’s coming in. He’s still 2 years away from his seat even being warm. And I hope it does not get warm. 

I’m willing to give him 4 years of his recruits and his system before making any decision. 

Really?  Are you saying Tom Crean who inherited a much, much worse situation than Archie didn't have his seat on fire entering year 4?  And I don't think he gets a 4th year if he wifs on Zeller.

Again, I don't want nor think Archie is going anywhere anytime soon but you probably need an evaluation if you don't think his seat will be on fire in year 4 if we miss the dance this season.

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2 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Really?  Are you saying Tom Crean who inherited a much, much worse situation than Archie didn't have his seat on fire entering year 4?  And I don't think he gets a 4th year if he wifs on Zeller.

Again, I don't want nor think Archie is going anywhere anytime soon but you probably need an evaluation if you don't think his seat will be on fire in year 4 if we miss the dance this season.

Well we aren’t “projected” to make it this season, so not sure I need an evaluation? I’m just saying it takes more than 2 years to implement a system and get the players YOU want running it. This year will be a big tell, because on paper, we are less talented than last year. Hunter will be a huge wild card, like 2-3 wins or losses imo 

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1 hour ago, Coach Robby said:

Totally disagree. This is only his 2nd cycle of his own recruits. We’re picked low due to what we lost vs what’s coming in. He’s still 2 years away from his seat even being warm. And I hope it does not get warm. 

I’m willing to give him 4 years of his recruits and his system before making any decision. 

Me too, but I think this is the year IU beats expectations handily.

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52 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Really?  Are you saying Tom Crean who inherited a much, much worse situation than Archie didn't have his seat on fire entering year 4?  And I don't think he gets a 4th year if he wifs on Zeller.

Again, I don't want nor think Archie is going anywhere anytime soon but you probably need an evaluation if you don't think his seat will be on fire in year 4 if we miss the dance this season.

 No, Crean was nowhere close to being on the hot seat in year 4. Anyone with any sense knew what he inherited, and in fact, his record improved each of the first three years, from 6 wins to 10 to 12. With this improvement and with the level of recruits he was bringing in, there was a great deal of optimism heading into year 4. The resultant Sweet 16 hard fought loss to Kentucky only solidified the consensus feeling that Crean was the guy to restore IU as an elite program.

The criticism and hot seat began following the next season and the dreadful coaching job he put in versus Syracuse. That became the watershed moment for the criticism and dissent within Hoosier Nation that led to his eventual firing.

Nice try anyway with your revisionist history and trying to mold it to prove your misguided agenda.

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2 hours ago, Coach Robby said:

Totally disagree. This is only his 2nd cycle of his own recruits. We’re picked low due to what we lost vs what’s coming in. He’s still 2 years away from his seat even being warm. And I hope it does not get warm. 

I’m willing to give him 4 years of his recruits and his system before making any decision. 

To me any coach should get at least 4 to 5 years before any firing takes place unless there is off the court problems.

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1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

Really?  Are you saying Tom Crean who inherited a much, much worse situation than Archie didn't have his seat on fire entering year 4?  And I don't think he gets a 4th year if he wifs on Zeller.

Again, I don't want nor think Archie is going anywhere anytime soon but you probably need an evaluation if you don't think his seat will be on fire in year 4 if we miss the dance this season.

No I don't think he was in any trouble entering that year and you need to stop basing your perception on what is said on rivals.  You think they represent the whole fan base but they are just a minority of the whole fan base.

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2 hours ago, Coach Robby said:

Totally disagree. This is only his 2nd cycle of his own recruits. We’re picked low due to what we lost vs what’s coming in. He’s still 2 years away from his seat even being warm. And I hope it does not get warm. 

I’m willing to give him 4 years of his recruits and his system before making any decision. 

You may be ready for that, but I would lay money that if we finish 11th in the Big Ten, the majority of the fanbase will not be.  If we finish 11th this year, his seat will be on fire for year 4.

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25 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

You may be ready for that, but I would lay money that if we finish 11th in the Big Ten, the majority of the fanbase will not be.  If we finish 11th this year, his seat will be on fire for year 4.

This fanbase has had unrealistic expectations for a long time, and I agree, thatś sad. However, the society we live in craves instant results, and that just isn´t the case. Give the guy a chance. If Hunter has difficulties or injuries, does that waver the whole fanbaseś thought? Believe me, I want IU to be a national contender again as much as the next guy, but it doesn´t happen that quickly. 2019 and beyond, thereś a much more level playing field. 

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8 hours ago, Coach Robby said:

This fanbase has had unrealistic expectations for a long time, and I agree, thatś sad. However, the society we live in craves instant results, and that just isn´t the case. Give the guy a chance. If Hunter has difficulties or injuries, does that waver the whole fanbaseś thought? Believe me, I want IU to be a national contender again as much as the next guy, but it doesn´t happen that quickly. 2019 and beyond, thereś a much more level playing field. 

All due respect, this idea that it takes 4 years to show any signs of life in a basketball program is complete nonsense.  Finishing 11th in the third year would be an unmitigated failure.  It would mark a decline in conference finishes each year of Miller's time here (7th in 18, 9th in 19, to 11th in 20).  If Hunter has injuries, I blame a staff that left 2 open scholarships when they know they have a roster full of injury prone guys (based on prior returns).  I find it interesting that the year has not even started and we are already pulling out the book of potential excuses. Frankly some of you have the bar so low right now an ant would have trouble crawling under it. 

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2 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

All due respect, this idea that it takes 4 years to show any signs of life in a basketball program is complete nonsense.  Finishing 11th in the third year would be an unmitigated failure.  It would mark a decline in conference finishes each year of Miller's time here (7th in 18, 9th in 19, to 11th in 20).  If Hunter has injuries, I blame a staff that left 2 open scholarships when they know they have a roster full of injury prone guys (based on prior returns).  I find it interesting that the year has not even started and we are already pulling out the book of potential excuses. Frankly some of you have the bar so low right now an ant would have trouble crawling under it. 

Some of the all time great coaches took a few years before they even made the tournament at their perspective schools so Archie deserves 4 to 5 years before any judgment is made.

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2 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

All due respect, this idea that it takes 4 years to show any signs of life in a basketball program is complete nonsense.  Finishing 11th in the third year would be an unmitigated failure.  It would mark a decline in conference finishes each year of Miller's time here (7th in 18, 9th in 19, to 11th in 20).  If Hunter has injuries, I blame a staff that left 2 open scholarships when they know they have a roster full of injury prone guys (based on prior returns).  I find it interesting that the year has not even started and we are already pulling out the book of potential excuses. Frankly some of you have the bar so low right now an ant would have trouble crawling under it. 

So the injuries to Rob, Romeo, Deron, Race, Jerome, and I don't remember who else last year was just an excuse for finishing 9th? Gotcha. 

I am sure no one here honestly expects us to finish as low as 11th. But none of us knew the number of injuries that were going to hit the team last year ahead of time, so some of us are just being more careful in setting expectations because if we have to go through a significant portion of the season without a fully healthy Rob again, or if Jerome is not 100% this year, it puts a couple of really large holes in the roster again (and I get this is part of your point about not recruiting backups). However, most of the incoming Freshman class were committed prior to our extended slide last year, so finding immediate impact players that late in the game just wasn't happening.

If we had the Ketchup guy committed instead of going to UK, we wouldn't really be worried about depth at the G/W positions and probably a lot more optimistic about a top 4 conference finish.

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3 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

All due respect, this idea that it takes 4 years to show any signs of life in a basketball program is complete nonsense.  Finishing 11th in the third year would be an unmitigated failure.  It would mark a decline in conference finishes each year of Miller's time here (7th in 18, 9th in 19, to 11th in 20).  If Hunter has injuries, I blame a staff that left 2 open scholarships when they know they have a roster full of injury prone guys (based on prior returns).  I find it interesting that the year has not even started and we are already pulling out the book of potential excuses. Frankly some of you have the bar so low right now an ant would have trouble crawling under it. 

I'm not making excuses already. I believe losing Morgan and Romeo will have more of an impact than some believe...I do not expect this team to be more talented top heavy like last year. Rather, more balanced and hopefully much better defensively. I don't have my bar set really low, I have realistic expectations of what the situation looks like and the potential that it may play out to. 

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To me what frustrates me about some in this fan base is that they turn on the coach way to soon.  I know it is just the loud minority of the fan base but to me when the fans turn on the coach so early on it does no good for the program.  I am not blaming all the problems of the program on this but to me when their is friction in the fan base it only causes problems.

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

To me what frustrates me about some in this fan base is that they turn on the coach way to soon.  I know it is just the loud minority of the fan base but to me when the fans turn on the coach so early on it does no good for the program.  I am not blaming all the problems of the program on this but to me when their is friction in the fan base it only causes problems.

The fan base turned on Davis early, and they turned out to be right.  Good man.  Can be successful coach in the right environment.  Was not a long term answer for IU.

The fan base turned on Crean early, and they turned out to be right.  Good man.  Has an eye for under the radar talent.  Way too helter-skelter in all aspects of coaching to have consistent long term success.  

I'm not saying Archie is or is not going to make it long term.  But, I just caution the belief that the fan base is 'wrong' if they are getting restless.  They have been proven right in the 2 most recent hires (I don't count Sampson.  He was wrong for IU, but not because his coaching acumen).  

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

To me what frustrates me about some in this fan base is that they turn on the coach way to soon.  I know it is just the loud minority of the fan base but to me when the fans turn on the coach so early on it does no good for the program.  I am not blaming all the problems of the program on this but to me when their is friction in the fan base it only causes problems.

To answer all of you who were taking me to task, yeah, the injuries played a bit of a role in year 2.  If they play a role again in year 3, to the point where we end up finishing 11th out of 14 teams in the Big Ten, which would be a decline every subsequent year that Miller has coached here....yes, I will judge accordingly.  I expect that a plurality of the fanbase will judge accordingly as well.  I don't think that will get him fired but it will put him in a position where he MUST produce in year 4 of a 7 year contract, which to me is the very definition of the hot seat.  If he does not produce by year 4 then you are in lame duck territory w.r.t. recruiting because any player he asks to commit to playing for him is a 4 year commitment he does not even have from his employer.

Frankly, the idea that there can be no standards for the first 4 years or that no inferences can be made until 4 years is up is completely asinine.  You should see positive culture growth and positive win results and increasingly better play over those initial years.  Finishing 11th this year would be a giant step backwards. 

Overly demanding fans can be bad for a program environment.  So too are fans who have basically no standard that they won't give up whenever an excuse avails itself.

I'm on board with Miller with some reservations about how some things have gone the past 2 years.  I think I hold the majority position, i.e. I believe this has not started out well (on the court) and some of that may have been the result of some bad luck, so benefit of the doubt right now, but another bad year and I've got 2 feet off the wagon.  It will take several good years in a row to get me fully back on.

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11 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

To answer all of you who were taking me to task, yeah, the injuries played a bit of a role in year 2.  If they play a role again in year 3, to the point where we end up finishing 11th out of 14 teams in the Big Ten, which would be a decline every subsequent year that Miller has coached here....yes, I will judge accordingly.  I expect that a plurality of the fanbase will judge accordingly as well.  I don't think that will get him fired but it will put him in a position where he MUST produce in year 4 of a 7 year contract, which to me is the very definition of the hot seat.  If he does not produce by year 4 then you are in lame duck territory w.r.t. recruiting because any player he asks to commit to playing for him is a 4 year commitment he does not even have from his employer.

Frankly, the idea that there can be no standards for the first 4 years or that no inferences can be made until 4 years is up is completely asinine.  You should see positive culture growth and positive win results and increasingly better play over those initial years.  Finishing 11th this year would be a giant step backwards. 

Overly demanding fans can be bad for a program environment.  So too are fans who have basically no standard that they won't give up whenever an excuse avails itself.

I'm on board with Miller with some reservations about how some things have gone the past 2 years.  I think I hold the majority position, i.e. I believe this has not started out well (on the court) and some of that may have been the result of some bad luck, so benefit of the doubt right now, but another bad year and I've got 2 feet off the wagon.  It will take several good years in a row to get me fully back on.

I agree that if after year 4 we are in the same place then yes fire him.  My complaint is that some of you guys have already made your judgment about him after only two years.  why not let it play out and see how it plays out before coming out and totally turning on a coach.

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13 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

The fan base turned on Davis early, and they turned out to be right.  Good man.  Can be successful coach in the right environment.  Was not a long term answer for IU.

The fan base turned on Crean early, and they turned out to be right.  Good man.  Has an eye for under the radar talent.  Way too helter-skelter in all aspects of coaching to have consistent long term success.  

I'm not saying Archie is or is not going to make it long term.  But, I just caution the belief that the fan base is 'wrong' if they are getting restless.  They have been proven right in the 2 most recent hires (I don't count Sampson.  He was wrong for IU, but not because his coaching acumen).  

I am sure there were some in the fan base of schools like Duke who probably wanted coach K fired after his first 4 years who was wrong.  How about fans of Villanova and UVA whoa fter 4 years probably wasn't happy with their coaches.

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11 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I am sure there were some in the fan base of schools like Duke who probably wanted coach K fired after his first 4 years who was wrong.  How about fans of Villanova and UVA whoa fter 4 years probably wasn't happy with their coaches.

Duke in the 1980's is a totally different brand than Duke today.  Watch what happens after K leaves.

Villanova fans were restless, no doubt about it, but they are not as 'fanatic' as IU fans (or UK, UL, etc.).  Being restless and being rabidly impatient are two different things.

I don't think UVA fans were restless at all.  They probably were happy with the prospect of possibly making the tournament and never in their wildest dreams thought they would have the kind of success they have had over the last few years.  

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2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I am sure there were some in the fan base of schools like Duke who probably wanted coach K fired after his first 4 years who was wrong.  How about fans of Villanova and UVA whoa fter 4 years probably wasn't happy with their coaches.

You are making my point for me though.  Coach K went 24-10 in his 4th year and then followed that up with several more good wins.  He did not win less than 23 games for about a decade after that.  And he has only won less than 23 games a year 3 times since then.  That is how you turn things around but I bet if he had another lackluster year in his 4th year that the higher ups at Duke might have thought about moving on.

So I will join you in holding Miller to the Coach K standard beginning in year 4.  That means that beginning in year 4 I should expect at least 22 wins and never finishing below 4th in the Big Ten.  I mean, if we want to use statistical outliers to bolster our position and all, we can use them on both ends of the argument right?

Bottom line, Miller needs to win to keep his job.  He gets a reserve of goodwill that every coach gets when they newly arrive at a job.  IF (and this is an IF, I hope it is not the case) we finish at, near, or below 11th in the conference this season, his reserve of goodwill is used up and it is put up or shut up time from there.  He will have left himself no wiggle room.   And that 4th year cannot be a squeak into the tournament type of year soon followed by up and down yo-yo years like Crean.  He needs to consistently make Indiana a top tier Big Ten team first and then eventually a National power again.  That is why he gets paid Top 12 salary (last I saw).  That is my expectation.  He got the 2 years to get the ship righted, this should be the year we start seeing dividends pay off.  If they don't this year, then he is in trouble for next year.

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25 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Duke in the 1980's is a totally different brand than Duke today.  Watch what happens after K leaves.

Villanova fans were restless, no doubt about it, but they are not as 'fanatic' as IU fans (or UK, UL, etc.).  Being restless and being rabidly impatient are two different things.

I don't think UVA fans were restless at all.  They probably were happy with the prospect of possibly making the tournament and never in their wildest dreams thought they would have the kind of success they have had over the last few years.  

Duke was in the championship game 2 years before coach K arrival.

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25 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

You are making my point for me though.  Coach K went 24-10 in his 4th year and then followed that up with several more good wins.  He did not win less than 23 games for about a decade after that.  And he has only won less than 23 games a year 3 times since then.  That is how you turn things around but I bet if he had another lackluster year in his 4th year that the higher ups at Duke might have thought about moving on.

So I will join you in holding Miller to the Coach K standard beginning in year 4.  That means that beginning in year 4 I should expect at least 22 wins and never finishing below 4th in the Big Ten.  I mean, if we want to use statistical outliers to bolster our position and all, we can use them on both ends of the argument right?

Bottom line, Miller needs to win to keep his job.  He gets a reserve of goodwill that every coach gets when they newly arrive at a job.  IF (and this is an IF, I hope it is not the case) we finish at, near, or below 11th in the conference this season, his reserve of goodwill is used up and it is put up or shut up time from there.  He will have left himself no wiggle room.   And that 4th year cannot be a squeak into the tournament type of year soon followed by up and down yo-yo years like Crean.  He needs to consistently make Indiana a top tier Big Ten team first and then eventually a National power again.  That is why he gets paid Top 12 salary (last I saw).  That is my expectation.  He got the 2 years to get the ship righted, this should be the year we start seeing dividends pay off.  If they don't this year, then he is in trouble for next year.

I agree that if he is not winning after year 4 then he should be let go but that is not my point.  My point is that there was no need to jump off the bandwagon even during his first year and more after year two.

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26 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

You are making my point for me though.  Coach K went 24-10 in his 4th year and then followed that up with several more good wins.  He did not win less than 23 games for about a decade after that.  And he has only won less than 23 games a year 3 times since then.  That is how you turn things around but I bet if he had another lackluster year in his 4th year that the higher ups at Duke might have thought about moving on.

So I will join you in holding Miller to the Coach K standard beginning in year 4.  That means that beginning in year 4 I should expect at least 22 wins and never finishing below 4th in the Big Ten.  I mean, if we want to use statistical outliers to bolster our position and all, we can use them on both ends of the argument right?

Bottom line, Miller needs to win to keep his job.  He gets a reserve of goodwill that every coach gets when they newly arrive at a job.  IF (and this is an IF, I hope it is not the case) we finish at, near, or below 11th in the conference this season, his reserve of goodwill is used up and it is put up or shut up time from there.  He will have left himself no wiggle room.   And that 4th year cannot be a squeak into the tournament type of year soon followed by up and down yo-yo years like Crean.  He needs to consistently make Indiana a top tier Big Ten team first and then eventually a National power again.  That is why he gets paid Top 12 salary (last I saw).  That is my expectation.  He got the 2 years to get the ship righted, this should be the year we start seeing dividends pay off.  If they don't this year, then he is in trouble for next year.

You had me all the way until the very last 8 words.  Almost hit like.  This team can finish 9-11 and then flush some assumed negatives while adding dude's like Lander and Kaufman and make tremendous improvement.  What I'm seeing take form for 2021 will be hold onto your seats boys type of stuff.  Like top 10.  He does need to more than just survive this season.  He needs to prove some naysayers wrong and then go close.  

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2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I agree that if he is not winning after year 4 then he should be let go but that is not my point.  My point is that there was no need to jump off the bandwagon even during his first year and more after year two.

I think you are confusing jumping off the bandwagon with expressing concerns.  You can do one and not be involved in the latter.

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