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Indiana State Game Thread


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1 hour ago, hoosiermd said:

 Do you think within those rankings, you have to look for a 3*-4* that might not rank as high, but IS EXCELLENT at a particular skill level, i.e., shooting, rebounding, defense? 

From a talent perspective, it does seem like Indiana should beat Indiana St. especially at home. They certainly shouldn't lose by 21pts & give up 90. But are you saying the talent is a composite of all the WRONG talent? 

I know Crean was highly criticized because of roster construction especially late in his tenure. Do you think last night is more of a microcosm of that roster construction finally coming home to roost?

I think you absolutely have to look at certain skill sets when you reach farther down the rankings.  How badly could this team use a Matt Roth type that could drill 3s but probably doesn't bring a whole lot else to the table.  Or a true ball handling PG that could run the offense.  

On to Crean, this team just wasn't put together properly at all.  There isn't one guy on this roster who you would say shooting is his expertise.  Also, there is only one true post player on this team.  To make matters worse, there isn't a single true PG on this team.

So to add that all up we basically have a roster of mediocre combo guards, a pretty good post player, and a mixture of offensively challenged wings.  If Crean was still coach, this year would have been beyond brutal for him.  Nearly 10 years in Bloomington and this is what he left us with.

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4 hours ago, BGleas said:

Why don’t you buy the talent argument? Tell me, who on this team is a great shooter? Who is a great rebounder? Who is a great ball handler? Who is good at getting a bucket on his own when you need one? Who on this team is exceptional at taking his man off the dribble? Who is a good leader? 

I don’t see anyone on this team that stand out at any of the above. It’s a bunch of guys that are decent at several of those thing, but nobody that is exceptional at any of them. 

This team was 18-16 last year, lost their three best players, and didn’t add anyone of particular note. Crean’s recruiting had fallen off big time the last few years. 

Bingo. Well said. Looking for effort, commitment, and improvement this year. 

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3 hours ago, hoosiermd said:

In regards to the talent argument. Here is how I'm seeing it. If you look at the Rivals Top-150 recruits you'll see the following on this team:

2017: Justin Smith-4*, Clifton Moore-4*
2016: De'Ron Davis-4*, Curtis Jones-4*
2015: Juwan Morgan-3*
2014: Robert Johnson-4*
2013: Josh Newkirk-3*

Not listed is Devonte Green-3* who wasn't in the Rivals Top-150 for 2016, but who is generally highly regarded on this board. From this perspective, Indiana has 7 kids that were ranked in the top-150 in their class and you can throw in Green who could make an argument that maybe he should have been. Also Hartman was a 3* kid in the 2013 class. I know he didn't play, but if you add him to the mix with Green and the other 7 then you can at least make an argument that Indiana has 9 kids who you could say are talented. Are they as talented as Duke? Of course not. Are they as talented as Kansas? No. Are they as talented as Indiana State who boasts of no kids in the top-150? 

My question isn't about talent per se, but I was wondering how do you (or anyone else that wants to chime in) see this if you go about recruiting? I'm guessing if you get 5* talent you know you are getting something uber-athletic that is super twitched up with some basketball ability. But when you reach down into the top-150 but are dealing with 3*-4* guys, do you think that Crean was simply picking the wrong guys and that these guys weren't talented to begin with? Do you think within those rankings, you have to look for a 3*-4* that might not rank as high, but IS EXCELLENT at a particular skill level, i.e., shooting, rebounding, defense? 

From a talent perspective, it does seem like Indiana should beat Indiana St. especially at home. They certainly shouldn't lose by 21pts & give up 90. But are you saying the talent is a composite of all the WRONG talent? 

I know Crean was highly criticized because of roster construction especially late in his tenure. Do you think last night is more of a microcosm of that roster construction finally coming home to roost?

I’m not necessarily talking about rankings, I’m talking about basketball skill.  I don’t think Crean necessarily picked all the wrong guys, but I do think he recruited players, not teams. He shotgunned offers and took who he could get. But he didn’t build teams, and he left the cupboard a little bare. But the reality is, despite what their rankings say, IU was a mediocre team last year and they lost their best three players. 

I think RoJo can be a fine player. Same with Juwan, De’Ron, Green, Newkirk, etc., but they’re all role players. You put those guys on a team with Yogi, Troy and Bryant and they’re a Big Ten Title contender. You put them with Zeller, VO and Watford, and you’re a Big Ten Title contender. 

You put those guys on a team without any star power, you get what we saw last night. We’re an average team that if it has an off night is pretty bad. 

As I said in my post before, who on this team is great at any particular skill? Really nobody. If IU is down 12 with 10 minutes to go, who is the guy that we’re saying “if we can get a few stops and player X gets hot we’re right back in this”? There isn’t anybody. Who is the guy that when we play a team with a great player we’re saying “player X is going to step up and lock this guy down!” There isn’t anybody. 

Who is the guy that when the offense is struggling we say “get the ball to point guard X and he’ll settle us down and get the offense set.” I can’t think of who that is. 

So the rankings may be what they are, though I think some guys aren’t as high if you look at the composite, but when you move the rankings aside and just look at the skill of the players and add it with a new coach /new system, theres going to be struggles. 

But, I’m super high on Archie and I think he’ll get the ship straightened out. To what extent, I don’t know, but I think he’s going to be a great coach at IU. 

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8 hours ago, ADegenerate said:

 

I’m sorry but I refuse to accept a losing system for another 25 years. Get better players. Simple as that. I’ve been patient enough. Iu fan base deserves results. 

Nobody is making you watch the game and if it makes you this miserable the maybe you should find something else to do with your time.

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I do think this year will be a struggle for this team. The new coaching staff will battle old attitudes and habits. The team will get better as they begin to understand that there is a new sheriff in town and the things they got away with before are not going to be tolerated. Next year will be much better and the following year will be the break out year. 
Coach Miller knows this team and he didn't hold back in his press conference after the game. I am not happy we lost but I am excited about the future of the Indiana program. We have the right coaching staff but at this time not the right players. 

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2 hours ago, rico said:

I remember that opener in '83-84 quite well.  I was in disbelief.  We get beat at home by Miami(OH)?  Geez, my world was all out of kilter!!!!!!  But at the end of the year.....we were pretty dang good.  And FWIW, that year the Redskins turned out to be pretty dang good themselves.

If it was the opener in 84 that would be the 84-85 season and that was a disaster

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

If it was the opener in 84 that would be the 84-85 season and that was a disaster

No it was the opener for the '83-'84 season that I was referring to.  But we did get beat the following year in the opener by Louisville.  They didn't make the tournament that year either.  Kind of I ironic.........Louisville wins championship in '86, and IU wins following year.

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7 minutes ago, rico said:

No it was the opener for the '83-'84 season that I was referring to.  But we did get beat the following year in the opener by Louisville.  They didn't make the tournament that year either.  Kind of I ironic.........Louisville wins championship in '86, and IU wins following year.

Didn't Louisville win it in 80 and we won it in 81?

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Needed some time to digest what happened last night. Utterly disappointed but when I really thought about it, these upper classmen had been trained by Crean for years. And lots of Crean's players were soft and they played terribly against physical teams. When they play against low, low competitions, stuff they learned new from CAM would've been much easier to be applied on the court. Now intensity and speed of the game was taken up by a couple of notches, these guys have to think and they were slow and indecisive. Some of their old, bad habits easily came back to them. We got 2 guys in Morgan and Johnson who are the definition of softness. Also, I think Morgan is a typical 'good practice player' whose game never translates to the real games. 

In the end, I don't worry about the future of our program even one bit. It's a process, and I believe CAM's got great substance in his game who can also recruit and teach very well. 

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Not trying to overreact to one game, but I think it might be time to pump the brakes on Archie.  We fell all over ourselves about press conferences and 4 star recruits.  Granted, a lot of this game was obviously on the players being mentally soft.  They are all role players - not a single alpha dog on the team. But at the same time, a 20+ loss to a shitty MVC team in the home opener is... pathetic and absolutely unacceptable.  Like Archie himself said, that is on the coach.  

The “they’re a tough team that shot the lights out” excuses are bogus.  They are not a good team, and all IU fans should realize by now that teams don’t just “shoot the lights out” by accident.  Championship-level programs don’t make those types of excuses.  The staff and players better figure it out quickly, or this could devolve into a dumpster fire with our brutal early schedule.  At this point, we could easily be looking at 5-6 non-conference losses and an 0-4 start in conference play by January.

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3 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Not trying to overreact to one game, but I think it might be time to pump the brakes on Archie.  We fell all over ourselves about press conferences and 4 star recruits.  Granted, a lot of this game was obviously on the players being mentally soft.  They are all role players - not a single alpha dog on the team. But at the same time, a 20+ loss to a shitty MVC team in the home opener is... pathetic and absolutely unacceptable.  Like Archie himself said, that is on the coach.  

The “they’re a tough team that shot the lights out” excuses are bogus.  They are not a good team, and all IU fans should realize by now that teams don’t just “shoot the lights out” by accident.  Championship-level programs don’t make those types of excuses.  The staff and players better figure it out quickly, or this could devolve into a dumpster fire with our brutal early schedule.  At this point, we could easily be looking at 5-6 non-conference losses and an 0-4 start in conference play by January.

Wait, you're saying we should question Archie as coach because of one game that didn't have a single player he picked on it? And you are claiming not to overreact?

I'm also not sure how you can label them as shitty and not good. They beat Illinois. They beat us. They played Purdue even for a half, which is more than West Virginia did. It isn't crazy to think ISU could be a tournament team. 

Lets assume for a minute they keep playing this good all year and do make the tournament. Why is it so shameful to lose to a tournament team that shoots lights out? 

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7 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Wait, you're saying we should question Archie as coach because of one game that didn't have a single player he picked on it? And you are claiming not to overreact?

I'm also not sure how you can label them as shitty and not good. They beat Illinois. They beat us. They played Purdue even for a half, which is more than West Virginia did. It isn't crazy to think ISU could be a tournament team. 

Lets assume for a minute they keep playing this good all year and do make the tournament. Why is it so shameful to lose to a tournament team that shoots lights out? 

I’m having deja vu to the IPFW loss last season.  There is absolutely nothing to indicate that ISU is anything other than a shitty team.  You can hang your hat on a scrimmage win over an awful Illinois team, but ISU is coming off a bad season and is not going to make tournament.  Teams “just happen to shoot the lights out” when players don’t execute a good defensive scheme and don’t come ready to play.  We saw it over and over with Crean, and that’s on the coach to a large extent.

Regardless, it’s not even the fact that we lost, it’s the way we lost.  Getting our asses whooped by an MVC team in the home opener is on the coach.  He’s had 8 months to implement his scheme and get the players ready to play.  That’s what he gets paid to do.  In the first test of the season, he (as well the players) failed miserably.  So yes, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question Archie at this point, considering that he hasn’t accomplished anything at IU except getting destroyed by ISU.  I’m not saying he’s a bad coach or that he won’t be successful, but his debut was unacceptable any way you look at it.

It’s also funny that you’ve been saying for months that we have a talented group of players that will compete in the Big Ten, but now the players are just so awful that there’s no way Archie can compete.  Which is it?

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20 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I’m having deja vu to the IPFW loss last season.  There is absolutely nothing to indicate that ISU is anything other than a shitty team.  You can hang your hat on a scrimmage win over an awful Illinois team, but ISU is coming off a bad season and is not going to make tournament.  Teams “just happen to shoot the lights out” when players don’t execute a good defensive scheme and don’t come ready to play.  We saw it over and over with Crean, and that’s on the coach to a large extent.

Regardless, it’s not even the fact that we lost, it’s the way we lost.  Getting our asses whooped by an MVC team in the home opener is on the coach.  He’s had 8 months to implement his scheme and get the players ready to play.  That’s what he gets paid to do.  In the first test of the season, he (as well the players) failed miserably.  So yes, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question Archie at this point, considering that he hasn’t accomplished anything at IU except getting destroyed by ISU.  I’m not saying he’s a bad coach or that he won’t be successful, but his debut was unacceptable any way you look at it.

It’s also funny that you’ve been saying for months that we have a talented group of players that will compete in the Big Ten, but now the players are just so awful that there’s no way Archie can compete.  Which is it?

1)  We have no idea how good ISU is, but they look like they could compete for the MVC.  Does it really matter?  

2) I don't think you understand the pack line.  It's designed to shut down everything inside, which can result in getting beat by a team with a good shooting night.  Does that mean we played it perfectly?  Hell no.  But, you should strap in because as long as we play the pack line there will be the potential to have a game where a team torches us from three.  What we shouldn't have is a game where a team gets everything they want inside. You're essentially saying it's fair for a manager to question rather or not they should fire a salesman because he didn't close his first sale after training.  I hope you're never a manager if you think you're being reasonable. 

3) I don't think I've said we don't have a talented team or that we shouldn't compete in the Big Ten?  I've never said we could be better than MSU, and Purdue based on last night and the WVU scrimmage may be better than I thought, but I don't remember saying that we are now at the bottom of the conference and lack talent.  Feel free to link me that post. 

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49 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I’m having deja vu to the IPFW loss last season.  There is absolutely nothing to indicate that ISU is anything other than a shitty team.  You can hang your hat on a scrimmage win over an awful Illinois team, but ISU is coming off a bad season and is not going to make tournament.  Teams “just happen to shoot the lights out” when players don’t execute a good defensive scheme and don’t come ready to play.  We saw it over and over with Crean, and that’s on the coach to a large extent.

Regardless, it’s not even the fact that we lost, it’s the way we lost.  Getting our asses whooped by an MVC team in the home opener is on the coach.  He’s had 8 months to implement his scheme and get the players ready to play.  That’s what he gets paid to do.  In the first test of the season, he (as well the players) failed miserably.  So yes, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question Archie at this point, considering that he hasn’t accomplished anything at IU except getting destroyed by ISU.  I’m not saying he’s a bad coach or that he won’t be successful, but his debut was unacceptable any way you look at it.

It’s also funny that you’ve been saying for months that we have a talented group of players that will compete in the Big Ten, but now the players are just so awful that there’s no way Archie can compete.  Which is it?

In college basketball you can't judge a team from what they did last year, so how do you know that ISU is shitty.

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I'm still at a loss for words after last night.  If you would have told me before hand we would lose a close, hard fought game I wouldn't have been surprised.  However, I am still in shock over the whipping we took.

I hate cliches but this is truly a one game at a time season.  All we can really hope for is to see improvement, however incremental, from one game to the next.

 

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4 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I’m having deja vu to the IPFW loss last season.  There is absolutely nothing to indicate that ISU is anything other than a shitty team.  You can hang your hat on a scrimmage win over an awful Illinois team, but ISU is coming off a bad season and is not going to make tournament.  Teams “just happen to shoot the lights out” when players don’t execute a good defensive scheme and don’t come ready to play.  We saw it over and over with Crean, and that’s on the coach to a large extent.

Regardless, it’s not even the fact that we lost, it’s the way we lost.  Getting our asses whooped by an MVC team in the home opener is on the coach.  He’s had 8 months to implement his scheme and get the players ready to play.  That’s what he gets paid to do.  In the first test of the season, he (as well the players) failed miserably.  So yes, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question Archie at this point, considering that he hasn’t accomplished anything at IU except getting destroyed by ISU.  I’m not saying he’s a bad coach or that he won’t be successful, but his debut was unacceptable any way you look at it.

It’s also funny that you’ve been saying for months that we have a talented group of players that will compete in the Big Ten, but now the players are just so awful that there’s no way Archie can compete.  Which is it?

We played poorly. But I think some of the overreacting is being done by people who didn't get to watch the game, since it was on BTN+. It is hard to overstate how incredible Indiana State shot the ball last night. Crazy threes with the shot clock winding down. Guys hitting sky hooks or fadeaways down low with the defender all over them. And almost every single time they were actually open, it went in. They were 17-22 from three at one point. That is better than the national average on free throws! They hit the most threes EVER by an opponent in Assembly Hall. 

So yes, it's fair to hold Archie accountable for a poor showing. But ISU also had an out of body experience, the kind you'll see once or twice in a lifetime. Not all of that is on Archie or the team.

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28 minutes ago, Shooter said:

We played poorly. But I think some of the overreacting is being done by people who didn't get to watch the game, since it was on BTN+. It is hard to overstate how incredible Indiana State shot the ball last night. Crazy threes with the shot clock winding down. Guys hitting sky hooks or fadeaways down low with the defender all over them. And almost every single time they were actually open, it went in. They were 17-22 from three at one point. That is better than the national average on free throws! They hit the most threes EVER by an opponent in Assembly Hall. 

So yes, it's fair to hold Archie accountable for a poor showing. But ISU also had an out of body experience, the kind you'll see once or twice in a lifetime. Not all of that is on Archie or the team.

No question, ISU played out of their minds and IU wasn't prepared for that. They'll get better...there's a LOT of learning going on right now.  Those who don't learn, will sit.

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33 minutes ago, Shooter said:

We played poorly. But I think some of the overreacting is being done by people who didn't get to watch the game, since it was on BTN+. It is hard to overstate how incredible Indiana State shot the ball last night. Crazy threes with the shot clock winding down. Guys hitting sky hooks or fadeaways down low with the defender all over them. And almost every single time they were actually open, it went in. They were 17-22 from three at one point. That is better than the national average on free throws! They hit the most threes EVER by an opponent in Assembly Hall. 

So yes, it's fair to hold Archie accountable for a poor showing. But ISU also had an out of body experience, the kind you'll see once or twice in a lifetime. Not all of that is on Archie or the team.

I was only able to catch the first half, so I saw them get out to a hot start shooting.  But a team isn’t able to have one of those crazy shooting nights if we come out and execute the defensive scheme aggressively and set the tone.   It is on Archie to have the team ready play, and make sure that doesn’t happen.  There should be no excuses.

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I am really glad we have another game on Sunday.  One day rest.  Let's see what happens then.  More than working them on the court.... I hope that Archie has been working on their minds.... as he said that during practice leading up to the ISU game.... some of them seemed not to be listening.  Archie knows how to coach. And some of these kids need to understand that and start paying attention to him, in stead of reverting back to bad habits.  No names. But you know who they are. 

 

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