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The 2019-20 College Basketball Season (non-IU)

5fouls

By 5fouls
in General Basketball Discussion

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FKIM01

FKIM01

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

He didn't. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_McDonald's_All-American_Boys_Game

That's right...he wasn't even eligible...was a Canadian player.

Must have been the Nike game.  I think the Canadian thing was the only reason he stayed under the radar...he was good right out of the gate at UK, so I don't see Cal really developing him either as Cal rarely has the good ones long enough to contribute much to their development.

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dgambill

dgambill

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

That's right...he wasn't even eligible...was a Canadian player.

Must have been the Nike game.  I think the Canadian thing was the only reason he stayed under the radar...he was good right out of the gate at UK, so I don't see Cal really developing him either as Cal rarely has the good ones long enough to contribute much to their development.

That’s not exactly true. He didn’t even start until almost half way through the year. Look I’m not here to defend Cal but talking in absolutes is almost never going to be factual. He was basically the lowest rated recruit on the team. Was not considered a OAD candidate at all until late in the season. There are some articles but are locked behind recruiting pay walls...this one kind of sums his year at UK up best. He was a nice surprise for Uk. I agree most kids are going to find their way to the league at UK regardless but it’s impossible to tell who he has helped and who he didn’t. As long as most recruits are crediting him with how much he has helped them...and almost ALL rave about Cal well kids are going to continue to buy into it. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nba/2019/11/12/20954085/shai-gilgeous-alexander-oklahoma-city-thunder-backstory-kentucky-nba-draft-recruiting-trade

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FKIM01

FKIM01

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Posted
3 hours ago, dgambill said:

That’s not exactly true. He didn’t even start until almost half way through the year. Look I’m not here to defend Cal but talking in absolutes is almost never going to be factual. He was basically the lowest rated recruit on the team. Was not considered a OAD candidate at all until late in the season. There are some articles but are locked behind recruiting pay walls...this one kind of sums his year at UK up best. He was a nice surprise for Uk. I agree most kids are going to find their way to the league at UK regardless but it’s impossible to tell who he has helped and who he didn’t. As long as most recruits are crediting him with how much he has helped them...and almost ALL rave about Cal well kids are going to continue to buy into it. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nba/2019/11/12/20954085/shai-gilgeous-alexander-oklahoma-city-thunder-backstory-kentucky-nba-draft-recruiting-trade

Sorry, but IMO, you are off on this one.  SGA AVERAGED almost 34 minutes a game and logged 36 minutes in his very first game.  It really doesn't matter whether he was an official starter or not, although he started 24 of 37 games in his only season at UK.  It's obvious that Calipari considered him worthy of starter minutes from the jump.  I'd also disagree with the link you posted...a "tentative" shooter at UK?  I think not.  He averaged 14.4 on 40.4% from 3 and 48.5% overall.  Calipari had a pretty good idea SGA was a very talented prospect when he quickly offered after the de-commit and it wasn't like he was Oladipo-under-ranked...was 29th...very near 5-star territory.  He was hardly a surprise, playing very well at the Nike Hoop Summit prior to receiving a UK offer.

...and as much as he climbed draft boards, his UK classmates were overall, unappreciated, with only Kevin Knox joining him in the first round, so you could say that most UK freshmen slid down (and out) of the draft, with SGA being the exception.  If Cal even maintains their draft stock, that draft looks a lot better for the Kentucky freshman class.  Jarred Vanderbilt (#12 - drafted #41), PJ Washington (#14 - undrafted), Nick Richards (#17 - undrafted) and Quade Green (#22 - undrafted) all failed to climb draft boards and in some cases, fell off considerably.  Only Kevin Knox (#9 - drafted 9th) and Hamidou Diallo (#45 - drafted 45th) lived up to their rankings on draft day, (although Diaillo was artificially low since two services removed him from their rankings after he enrolled early in January at UK), so using SGA as an example while ignoring the rest of his class when evaluating Calipari's ability to "develop" players, is a stretch to me.  I don't think it would be hard at all to show that, overall, most UK players don't really exceed their early draft expectations and there are plenty of examples of UK players that fall off significantly.  I'll bet for every SGA you give as an example, I can show you at least 1-2 UK players that didn't live up to early expectations.  In this class alone, I could give you four (or five if you count Diallo) examples.  I think it's a lot easier to make a case that Calipari is mediocre at best in the area of talent development and I'm not alone in that school of thinking...

https://studentunionsports.com/uk-develop-talent/

https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2018-03-23-coach-k-is-better-than-john-calipari-at-developing-young-talent/

I'll respectfully disagree with your assessment.

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FKIM01

FKIM01

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Posted
1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

@FKIM01Not sure I understand your label of 'undrafted' on some guys.

Quade Green is still in college (transferred to Washington).  

PJ Washnington was the #12 pick in the 2019 draft (no shame in that)

Nick Richards is still at UK.

Was too lazy to add all the necessary sub-categories and do even more research than I already had, but using the conventional wisdom of "you should go if you're projected in the first round", I threw everyone not drafted and rated a 5-star in that category whether or not they actually declared. If Cal truly developed them above their rankings, they should have all declared and gone.  I did intentionally leave out the kid (name escapes me) ranked in the '60's as he wasn't projected to begin with. It's  a simplistic approach that ignores several factors, but I think it's good enough to illustrate that Cal is mediocre at best when it comes to developing talent, even though he is virtually without peer in assembling talent/program salesmanship. 

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dgambill

dgambill

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Posted
10 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

Sorry, but IMO, you are off on this one.  SGA AVERAGED almost 34 minutes a game and logged 36 minutes in his very first game.  It really doesn't matter whether he was an official starter or not, although he started 24 of 37 games in his only season at UK.  It's obvious that Calipari considered him worthy of starter minutes from the jump.  I'd also disagree with the link you posted...a "tentative" shooter at UK?  I think not.  He averaged 14.4 on 40.4% from 3 and 48.5% overall.  Calipari had a pretty good idea SGA was a very talented prospect when he quickly offered after the de-commit and it wasn't like he was Oladipo-under-ranked...was 29th...very near 5-star territory.  He was hardly a surprise, playing very well at the Nike Hoop Summit prior to receiving a UK offer.

...and as much as he climbed draft boards, his UK classmates were overall, unappreciated, with only Kevin Knox joining him in the first round, so you could say that most UK freshmen slid down (and out) of the draft, with SGA being the exception.  If Cal even maintains their draft stock, that draft looks a lot better for the Kentucky freshman class.  Jarred Vanderbilt (#12 - drafted #41), PJ Washington (#14 - undrafted), Nick Richards (#17 - undrafted) and Quade Green (#22 - undrafted) all failed to climb draft boards and in some cases, fell off considerably.  Only Kevin Knox (#9 - drafted 9th) and Hamidou Diallo (#45 - drafted 45th) lived up to their rankings on draft day, (although Diaillo was artificially low since two services removed him from their rankings after he enrolled early in January at UK), so using SGA as an example while ignoring the rest of his class when evaluating Calipari's ability to "develop" players, is a stretch to me.  I don't think it would be hard at all to show that, overall, most UK players don't really exceed their early draft expectations and there are plenty of examples of UK players that fall off significantly.  I'll bet for every SGA you give as an example, I can show you at least 1-2 UK players that didn't live up to early expectations.  In this class alone, I could give you four (or five if you count Diallo) examples.  I think it's a lot easier to make a case that Calipari is mediocre at best in the area of talent development and I'm not alone in that school of thinking...

https://studentunionsports.com/uk-develop-talent/

https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2018-03-23-coach-k-is-better-than-john-calipari-at-developing-young-talent/

I'll respectfully disagree with your assessment.

I'm not going to defend Cal. Cal has droves of NBA guys that speak highly of his ability to prepare them for the NBA. It isn't about "developing" in as much as improving their draft stock as it is making sure they have matured and are ready for what is to come when getting to the NBA. Again I caution speaking in absolutes but an overwhelming majority of his kids credit his preparation and his coaching and his guidance in preparing them to be successful in the NBA. Whether it his individual work on them to improve certain aspects of their game or it is the fact that they go against the best players in the country day in and day out in practice to earn playing time or the fact they play arguably one of the most impressive schedules (all the showcase games) in the country these guys feel Cal has added something very very valuable to their basketball journey. Sure the road is littered with guys that didn't cut it and failed...but there is no doubt that Kentucky is putting the most kids into the league year after year. Doesn't matter we don't think he is a very good tactician or even if we think he just rolls the ball out or these kids would make the NBA regardless...fact is his teams get much better as the season goes along and the kids credit him to at least part of their success upon making it in the NBA. Others listen...and then want to follow. Also...I wouldn't use draft boards as a precursor for ranking kids. We already know these guys are so very wrong in their analysis as it is...but to rank a HS kid in where he will get drafted that has never stepped on the floor...outside a couple no doubt can't miss kids none of these kids can say for certain should be lottery picks. There are hundreds of other college and foreign players that are working to get drafted. If a kid comes in ranked 10th in his recruiting class doesn't mean he should be the 10th pick in the draft. There are so many reasons why kids don't get drafted or may go later...fit with the teams drafting...injuries...maybe poor attitude or work ethic. Again...if those making the NBA are crediting Cal with improving them and helping them in their journey...kids follow results...and they know Cal/UK gets results.

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13th&Jackson

13th&Jackson

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, milehiiu said:

Joey Brackets updated his brackets 12/23/19.   One team is conspicuous by it's absence.  Can you spot it ?   Oh, by the way, IU in at six.

Bracketology - NCAA College Basketball Brackets and Predictions - ESPN

Don't see any teams from Chapel Hill on the list.

Also, what happened to all the pre-season hype on the Illini?

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milehiiu

milehiiu

Posted
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1 hour ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Don't see any teams from Chapel Hill on the list.

Also, what happened to all the pre-season hype on the Illini?

Yep.  No UNC. Though they were highly thought of early season wise.  While IU was picked to finish 8th or lower in the B1G.

Wait.  Illinois has a bb team ?   LOL

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Seeking6

Seeking6

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Don't see any teams from Chapel Hill on the list.

Also, what happened to all the pre-season hype on the Illini?

Illini have some locker room issues. Certainly can be corrected but only one ball for 3 guys who want and need to get shots up. I think they will be a team who will beat some good teams and potentially very good teams but also lose games they have no business losing and probably be on the wrong side of the bubble come March.

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13th&Jackson

13th&Jackson

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

Walter McCarty on leave while Title IX investigation takes place at Evansville.

From the small world department:

Bennie Seltzer will serve as interim head coach of Aces, who will resume play with their Missouri Valley Conference opener on Tuesday afternoon at Missouri State.

Seltzer is new to the staff this season. His hire was announced in August after the former top two assistant coaches -- Todd Lickliter and Matthew Graves -- left during summer for personal reasons.

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milehiiu

milehiiu

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

From the small world department:

Bennie Seltzer will serve as interim head coach of Aces, who will resume play with their Missouri Valley Conference opener on Tuesday afternoon at Missouri State.

Seltzer is new to the staff this season. His hire was announced in August after the former top two assistant coaches -- Todd Lickliter and Matthew Graves -- left during summer for personal reasons.

Bennie Seltzer.  I seem to recall that name.  Just kidding. LOL

Todd Lickliter.... another name I recall. 

Actually liked Seltzer.  He did some good recruiting for IU, as I recall.  Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

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Seeking6

Seeking6

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

From the small world department:

Bennie Seltzer will serve as interim head coach of Aces, who will resume play with their Missouri Valley Conference opener on Tuesday afternoon at Missouri State.

Seltzer is new to the staff this season. His hire was announced in August after the former top two assistant coaches -- Todd Lickliter and Matthew Graves -- left during summer for personal reasons.

Wow. Small world it is. Lickliter....only if wouldn't have chased a bigger conference. Maybe would still be at Butler. 

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milehiiu

milehiiu

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Tempted to say the same about Dan Monson leaving Gonzaga, but then again, he's been able to coach at Long Beach St. for the past 12 seasons with about a .500 record. There are worse gigs than that.

 

Could possibly say the same about Steve Alford.  Stepped on the big stage, not once... but twice.  Iowa and UCLA. The New Mexico fans loved him, when he was there.  And from reading the Nevada fan boards, they are happy with Steve as well.  Sometimes a guy has got to know what is best for him.  Kind of like that guy at Gonzaga, who has had many offers to step on a bigger stage.... but has refused to change his stage.  

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rico

rico

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Tempted to say the same about Dan Monson leaving Gonzaga, but then again, he's been able to coach at Long Beach St. for the past 12 seasons with about a .500 record. There are worse gigs than that.

 

Well Todd went from Iowa to coaching Marian in Indianapolis...dude went off the grid.

But yeah, Monson is the one that built the Zags...I think Few learned a lesson from Dan?  LOL

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rico

rico

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Could possibly say the same about Steve Alford.  Stepped on the big stage, not once... but twice.  Iowa and UCLA. The New Mexico fans loved him, when he was there.  And from reading the Nevada fan boards, they are happy with Steve as well.  Sometimes a guy has got to know what is best for him.  Kind of like that guy at Gonzaga, who has had many offers to step on a bigger stage.... but has refused to change his stage.  

Actually, IMO, Steve has done fantastic for himself.  UCLA was desperate and hired him.  But how many coaches has UCLA had since Wooden?  Steve gets it rolling at Nevada, another big gig will come calling.

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