IU vs Seton Hall. Game thread

[HoosierKix]

Just now, FKIM01 said:

Yeah...our entry passes SUCKED in comparison to Seton Hall's.  Numerous times we threw it too high to too hard for the players underneath to get their hands on it.

Robert Johnson and Devonte green both need to take lessons from Curtis and Al because they both to my eyes had good entry passes. Devonte gets too showy. Rob gets too lazy.

[HoosierKix]

I know you should never blame it on the refs, but man they were picking Indiana apart and barely calling anything against Seton Hall. But I might be a little biased because I've never got a long with refs. In high school I always got into it with them lol

[Indykev]

13 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Didn't watch.  Took my 11 year old daughter to a high school girls game instead.  May or may not watch the recording.  

Watch it, not that bad over all. One big stretch in the second half the freshman got tired and the seniors were the same old seniors. I still think we will do some damage before the season is over. Archie is on the right track with them.

[BGleas]

36 minutes ago, HoosierKix said:

Robert Johnson and Devonte green both need to take lessons from Curtis and Al because they both to my eyes had good entry passes. Devonte gets too showy. Rob gets too lazy.

Devonte Green is the best post entry passer on the team. 

[HoosierFaithful]

46 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Devonte Green is the best post entry passer on the team. 

Absolutely agree. 

[NCHoosier32]

i'm not impressed with Morgan.  yes, i know he has a bad ankle.  we are just not good this year.  i think it's understandable with a new coach.  we'll get better.  we need big time recruits to compete with the big boys.  i wouldn't be upset at all to see the upper classmen more and more limited in minutes and figure out which of the young ones are really a big part of the future.  ugly basketball last night.

[zerawkid]

2 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i'm not impressed with Morgan.  yes, i know he has a bad ankle.  we are just not good this year.  i think it's understandable with a new coach.  we'll get better.  we need big time recruits to compete with the big boys.  i wouldn't be upset at all to see the upper classmen more and more limited in minutes and figure out which of the young ones are really a big part of the future.  ugly basketball last night.

Morgan showed flashes last night. Really working to establish quality position under the basket...his defense, on the other hand...

Overall, I am seeing drastic differences on defense for this squad over last year. They still have a way to go, but effort alone is leagues greater than we’ve seen since the Bobby Knight days.

[Seeking6]

Much like our games all year will be. Good signs and bad signs. There was a stretch in 2nd half maybe 12-13 minutes to go (apologize if not exact). We cut the lead to 5 or 6 and that was followed by 3 straight turnovers and game was done.

I took away far more positives. Seton Hall is a top 20 team playing at home. I'll also echo others. Broad Ripple Bo and Gene Steratore didn't do us any favors. Wish Gene would stick to football and Bo keeps getting IU games is beyond me. 

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i'm not impressed with Morgan.  yes, i know he has a bad ankle.  we are just not good this year.  i think it's understandable with a new coach.  we'll get better.  we need big time recruits to compete with the big boys.  i wouldn't be upset at all to see the upper classmen more and more limited in minutes and figure out which of the young ones are really a big part of the future.  ugly basketball last night.

I think Morgan does a lot of really good things that help a team win, but unfortunately on this team IU really needs him, and RoJo while we’re at it, to make shots. If this team is going to gel and make a run a lot needs to happen (reduce turnovers, better communication, etc.) but one thing is those two guys becoming reliable offensively. I’m not saying they need to be go-to scorers where they create their own shots, but they need to start hitting open shots. 

Morgan missed at least 3 or 4 wide open jumpers last night and he was pretty inconsistent last year too, same with RoJo. We look a lot different offensively if we can count on those guys. 

[3Ballin]

10 hours ago, HoosierKix said:

Robert Johnson and Devonte green both need to take lessons from Curtis and Al because they both to my eyes had good entry passes. Devonte gets too showy. Rob gets too lazy.

Yes, Green gets too flashy at times, but there were a few times last night where the ball hit the guy in the hands or chest. I think our "bigs" are still used to being frozen out and don't look for the ball and when our younger guys throw it to them they boot it into the cheap seats. 

[HoosierKix]

43 minutes ago, 3Ballin said:

Yes, Green gets too flashy at times, but there were a few times last night where the ball hit the guy in the hands or chest. I think our "bigs" are still used to being frozen out and don't look for the ball and when our younger guys throw it to them they boot it into the cheap seats. 

Yes that is true also. There were a couple times where it hit them in the chest, but Green also needs to learn how to slow his passes down. If he rockets it to Juwan Morgan from three feet away it's hard to catch it. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

I think Morgan does a lot of really good things that help a team win, but unfortunately on this team IU really needs him, and RoJo while we’re at it, to make shots. If this team is going to gel and make a run a lot needs to happen (reduce turnovers, better communication, etc.) but one thing is those two guys becoming reliable offensively. I’m not saying they need to be go-to scorers where they create their own shots, but they need to start hitting open shots. 

Morgan missed at least 3 or 4 wide open jumpers last night and he was pretty inconsistent last year too, same with RoJo. We look a lot different offensively if we can count on those guys. 

Gleas, I'm just not following your going after Rob two games in a row on his shooting. He was 5-10 last night. He missed his 3 shots from the arc, but that's 3 shots. Are you saying you think he should be shooting more and hitting more from outside to help spread the floor? In the W over Howard he was 5-8  and 2-4 from the arc. So past two games, 10-18 FGs, but due to 0-3 from the arc last night, 2-7 from the arc. But again that's a total of 7 shots. This isn't me defending Rob, I just don't get why you keep saying he needs to hit his shots. He was our second leading scorer with 12 last night on 10 shots. If you're saying he needs to be more of a dominant scorer, maybe, but I'd rather see better scoring distribution, and I don't think Rob is an alfa guy like JBJ who will just shoot all over the place.

I agree on Morgan, and he has shown he can shoot. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

On the game, Seton Hall's the better team this year. It does look like the team is making progress, particularly defensively.

I'm going to stay patient through the season with the change in system under CAM and adjusting to the loss of Bryant, OG and JBJ, and Collin being out right now, but in fairness, the way we lost that opening game at home -- first time since something like 1942 (and obviously including Crean), was not encouraging. Staying patient, lots of work to do, but if IU is not winning and winning well by early next season, questioning CAM, and the decision to fire Crean for CAM, is going to be fully fair game.

[madmax]

11 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

On the game, Seton Hall's the better team this year. It does look like the team is making progress, particularly defensively.

I'm going to stay patient through the season with the change in system under CAM and adjusting to the loss of Bryant, OG and JBJ, and Collin being out right now, but in fairness, the way we lost that opening game at home -- first time since something like 1942 (and obviously including Crean), was not encouraging. Staying patient, lots of work to do, but if IU is not winning and winning well by early next season, questioning CAM, and the decision to fire Crean for CAM, is going to be fully fair game.

Disagree wholeheartedly that we need to be doing any sort of examination of CAM's status early next season. Barring a complete and absolute disaster this year and next, we shouldn't even be talking about firing CAM. That is totally ridiculous. That wouldn't even be enough time for CAM to recruit a team of only his own players.

I expect progress over the next two years, but I really think we aren't going to see big time results until year 4 or 5-which is completely reasonable. The culture of a program doesn't change in a year, it is going to take time for Archie to truly implement his style and players.

[CampHoosier]

12 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Didn't watch.  Took my 11 year old daughter to a high school girls game instead.  May or may not watch the recording.  

Don't. Seriously just save yourself the misery

[FW_Hoosier]

48 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Gleas, I'm just not following your going after Rob two games in a row on his shooting. He was 5-10 last night. He missed his 3 shots from the arc, but that's 3 shots. Are you saying you think he should be shooting more and hitting more from outside to help spread the floor? In the W over Howard he was 5-8  and 2-4 from the arc. So past two games, 10-18 FGs, but due to 0-3 from the arc last night, 2-7 from the arc. But again that's a total of 7 shots. This isn't me defending Rob, I just don't get why you keep saying he needs to hit his shots. He was our second leading scorer with 12 last night on 10 shots. If you're saying he needs to be more of a dominant scorer, maybe, but I'd rather see better scoring distribution, and I don't think Rob is an alfa guy like JBJ who will just shoot all over the place.

I agree on Morgan, and he has shown he can shoot. 

Rob’s stats were really deceiving last night.  He didn’t take a single shot until there were 7 and a half minutes left in the first half.  He scored 4 points on 2-3 shooting (0-1 from three) in those last 7 minutes of the first half.  He took 1 shot in the first 12 minutes of the second half, another missed 3.  Then, when we were down 16 with 8 and a half minutes left, he decided to start playing, going 3-6 from the field, 2-3 at the line, and 0-1 from 3.  8 of his 12 points came in garbage time when the game was already over.  It was an absolutely atrocious game for him on both ends.

Edit: And Morgan has never shown he can shoot.  He’s 15-55 (27.3%) for his career.  He hit 5 threes his freshman year, that meant nothing.

[CampHoosier]

This is 100% on the players especially Newkirk and Johnson. Talk about not showing up. The dumb turnovers have turned in to inexcusable turnovers. The lack of urgency is mind boggling. The decision-making is non-existent. When you put on an Indiana uniform you should feel blessed and for a lot of guys it seems like a burden. Start Durham and Smith. Devonte hits shots and makes a redemption game for himself then totally erases it with turnovers. The 5 second call after they hit a three was about as low as it gets. The players let the coach down last night. However, our offensive sets are abysmal. We can't pass on the perimeter until 10 seconds are left on the shot clock. On defense, we abandoned the lane entirely and couldn't guard the three. That was a textbook meltdown

[slojoe]

The first half was very close.  We were down one at half despite getting off to a slow start.

In the second half they fed their experienced center who killed us and eventually fouled out Davis.   We couldn't do the same.

Al and Justin played well and will continue to be major factors on this team.

Our defense is better, but we can't sustain it.

We turned the ball over way too much.

[IowaHoosierFan]

I mentioned this before but the passes looking like we're thinking to long before passing the ball which seems to tell the defense where it going a split second before we pass it.  They don't look comfortable in the offensive sets like they want to just shoot 3's but can't figure out if they should or not.  They will get better as they get more automatic with the offense.

[Hoosierhoopster]

42 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Rob’s stats were really deceiving last night.  He didn’t take a single shot until there were 7 and a half minutes left in the first half.  He scored 4 points on 2-3 shooting (0-1 from three) in those last 7 minutes of the first half.  He took 1 shot in the first 12 minutes of the second half, another missed 3.  Then, when we were down 16 with 8 and a half minutes left, he decided to start playing, going 3-6 from the field, 2-3 at the line, and 0-1 from 3.  8 of his 12 points came in garbage time when the game was already over.  It was an absolutely atrocious game for him on both ends.

Edit: And Morgan has never shown he can shoot.  He’s 15-55 (27.3%) for his career.  He hit 5 threes his freshman year, that meant nothing.

I think this is fair, but it goes away from the statement I was addressing and really goes to my point -- the statement I responded to concerned hitting open shots, and the question I asked was whether the point being made was that he should shoot more.

Gleas's statement, which I was commenting on, was that Rob (and Morgan) needs "to start hitting open shots." Rob is not missing open shots, that's just not true, and your post ignores that. (Guys score at different points in games all the time, don't really buy into questioning his shooting by when he took shots.) 

 It is true that he's not stepping up and leading scoring -- although he scored 14 on 5-8 shooting in the Howard game, which again goes to the statement about not hitting open shots. He's not playing the role of a lead scorer and leading the offense by example. If the point is that he needs to do so, that may be, but again I'm not sure that's the best approach. Again, I'd rather see balanced scoring. I think we can win games with Rob shooting 8-10 shots, if he's otherwise contributing on both ends. He didn't play that well last night, but he sure as hell wasn't alone, and the point about hitting open shots wasn't right.

Edit - On Morgan, you're ignoring that he shot 85-157, 55%, last year. He absolutely did not shoot well from the arc (25%) -- but I will liken that to Vic. Vic shot I think it was 27% or so as a soph, and then something like 43% as a junior, from the arc. Morgan has shown, in practices and scrimmages, good shooting from the arc. The talk last summer was that he was going to show that in games. He didn't. Doesn't mean he can't shoot, he can. Does mean he hasn't demonstrated it in games, but he can shoot from the outside, hopefully, if he's doing it again this season, he gets it going in games in the same way Vic did his junior year.

[IUwins0708]

13 hours ago, 5fouls said:

I have not seen the game, so this is observation is based solely on the box and the fact that he was playing on a bad ankle.  Morgan is NOT one of the major problems with this team.  Not sure what/who you want him to be.  But, he is a solid rebounder and can contribute on the offensive end without scoring a ton of points. 

That’s fine but he continues to make stupid plays on defense and continues to shoot 3s when he doesn’t have that range.  He hasn’t improved much since his freshman year.

[Hoosierhoopster]

20 minutes ago, slojoe said:

The first half was very close.  We were down one at half despite getting off to a slow start.

In the second half they fed their experienced center who killed us and eventually fouled out Davis.   We couldn't do the same.

Al and Justin played well and will continue to be major factors on this team.

Our defense is better, but we can't sustain it.

We turned the ball over way too much.

And Davis fouled out with 4 points and 1 board. The team's ability to grow and challenge is going to go hand in hand with Davis's improvement, including learning how to avoid fouling.

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Rob’s stats were really deceiving last night.  He didn’t take a single shot until there were 7 and a half minutes left in the first half.  He scored 4 points on 2-3 shooting (0-1 from three) in those last 7 minutes of the first half.  He took 1 shot in the first 12 minutes of the second half, another missed 3.  Then, when we were down 16 with 8 and a half minutes left, he decided to start playing, going 3-6 from the field, 2-3 at the line, and 0-1 from 3.  8 of his 12 points came in garbage time when the game was already over.  It was an absolutely atrocious game for him on both ends.

Edit: And Morgan has never shown he can shoot.  He’s 15-55 (27.3%) for his career.  He hit 5 threes his freshman year, that meant nothing.

This. I don’t remember all the details of the Howard game, but Rob’s final line was really deceiving last night. When it mattered most, he wasn’t there and was missed a few wide open shots that IU really needed. I think the announcers even alluded to it. 

[NCHoosier32]

i don't have a problem with IU losing to a ranked team this season in general, but i just keep shaking my head at how ugly the basketball seemed from both teams.  if you would have told me we lost by 16 to the #22 team in the nation, i wouldn't be too upset with that, but Seton Hall looked sloppy and not impressive to me.  we just looked worse than that.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

On the game, Seton Hall's the better team this year. It does look like the team is making progress, particularly defensively.

I'm going to stay patient through the season with the change in system under CAM and adjusting to the loss of Bryant, OG and JBJ, and Collin being out right now, but in fairness, the way we lost that opening game at home -- first time since something like 1942 (and obviously including Crean), was not encouraging. Staying patient, lots of work to do, but if IU is not winning and winning well by early next season, questioning CAM, and the decision to fire Crean for CAM, is going to be fully fair game.

No way can you start questioning CAM until he has a full recruiting cycle to get his type of players in. I have wondered to myself several times already this season how much worse things might look if Crean were still the coach. Hard to know. Don't know if some of the drop off in play is due to upperclassmen not fully buying into Archie. Given the lack of focus on defense and ball possession, I can't visualize a scenario where the first three games would have turned out any better had Crean been coaching.

 

- On Morgan, you're ignoring that he shot 85-157, 55%, last year. He absolutely did not shoot well from the arc (25%) -- but I will liken that to Vic. Vic shot I think it was 27% or so as a soph, and then something like 43% as a junior, from the arc. Morgan has shown, in practices and scrimmages, good shooting from the arc. The talk last summer was that he was going to show that in games. He didn't. Doesn't mean he can't shoot, he can. Does mean he hasn't demonstrated it in games, but he can shoot from the outside, hopefully, if he's doing it again this season, he gets it going in games in the same way Vic did his junior year.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Shooting in practice or scrimmage is a totally different animal than live game action. When it really matters, kids have to have the cajones and/or confidence to take and make big shots.

 

I really think that a big part of the issues thus far this season is that kids are being asked to take on roles that they may not be comfortable with, or frankly capable of filling.

Was Morgan really recruited to be a shooter? He was a 3 star kid out of high school. Always viewed him as doing a lot of the dirty work that all good teams need someone to do.Rebounding, decent defense, second chance baskets. Maybe Morgan can become capable of being a reliable shooter, but if he was not recruited for that role, and never envisioned himself in it, it may take a good bit of time to develop the confidence or ability or both, to reliably fit that role. In the same vein, there have been a lot of comments on here (myself included) about the lack of leadership on this team. Just because a kid is a junior or senior does not preordain him to be in a leadership capacity. Most often, kids either have that trait or they don't. It might not be within the wherewithal of Rojo, Morgan or Newkirk to be leaders. 

I think this is the crux of the problem thus far....kids are being asked to take on roles they aren't capable of. Not CAM's fault, he has to work with what he has. But it is limiting his options and limiting the team, and until he can get his recruits in the program, I don't see how it would be fair to judge him.