Thoughts from a B1G ASSISTANT COACH

[Billingsley99]

21 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Not questioning you at all here Billingsley, more just looking for any clarification you can provide. The assistant said that Archie is a coach that other conference coaches want to see stay at IU, which is clearly a negative viewpoint of Archie, or at least means the other coaches aren't worried about IU with Archie. But then the main reason given was simply that he's not Bob Knight? Either there is more you're not sharing, which is probably the case and completely fine, or it's not that the coaches don't think Archie is really good, it's just that they think whoever the coach is at IU the fans and the admin will basically ruin it?

This is the opinion of 1 person but has access to.many peoples thoughts so I dont know how much of his opinion is shaped or his own. 

Lots of positive things were said. For him he does not think pack line will work.  Too many good shooters and you make good shooters great ok shooters good. They always will have shooters in his opinion. Questions in game adjustments thinks the Romeo effect will he a negative and IS currently being used with the.top talent.

Last thing I can say without crossing a line of mistrust. CAM needs to close the state border to win and he does not see that will happen with 21 class. Like I said its 1 person thoughts but at this point he does not see multiple guys in class staying in state

[Billingsley99]

25 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I agree with the bolded. Pretty much disagree with the rest of your post, but agree with the bolded. I posted in the Lander thread yesterday about some of IU's recruiting over the last 17 or so years. Since 2003 (as far back as 24/7 goes), IU has had 2 top 50 recruits in the same class exactly ONE time. We've had 3 top 100 recruits in the same class 4 times and two of those were pre-Crean. 

That's not a coach problem, that's an administration problem. There have been some pretty interesting things come out over the last year about the program. Archie being shocked at some of the facilities, shocked at the budget on some things, and news in the Rabjohn's article or podcast last year that IU's compliance is basically out to trip the coaches up as opposed to working with them to navigate the rules. 

I am 100% convinced that Archie is just as good as Holtman and Mack, and frankly people dismiss that Holtman walked into a much better situation, but that's a debate for another day. But, the huge, huge difference is the schools and the administrations that Holtman and Mack work for, as opposed to what Archie is dealing with. 

My opinion, based on some of the things that have come out over the last year or so, and Crean's comments when he exited about not being on the same page as the admin, is that compared to Holtman and Mack Archie is running a program with one hand tied behind his back. 

Very well said.

[FW_Hoosier]

4 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

This is the opinion of 1 person but has access to.many peoples thoughts so I dont know how much of his opinion is shaped or his own. 

Lots of positive things were said. For him he does not think pack line will work.  Too many good shooters and you make good shooters great ok shooters good. They always will have shooters in his opinion. Questions in game adjustments thinks the Romeo effect will he a negative and IS currently being used with the.top talent.

Last thing I can say without crossing a line of mistrust. CAM needs to close the state border to win and he does not see that will happen with 21 class. Like I said its 1 person thoughts but at this point he does not see multiple guys in class staying in state

Did he say anything about our offense?

[Billingsley99]

19 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Did he say anything about our offense?

Not specifically thinks the.pieces are there.

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Very well said.

Thank you, though it's a little disheartening. Sort of, if the admin isn't invested in winning then what's the point? Why invest all this time as a fan? It's like being a fan of a pro sports team with a crappy owner, it's never going to get where we want it consistently until the owner changes. 

[tdhoosier]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Thank you, though it's a little disheartening. Sort of, if the admin isn't invested in winning then what's the point? Why invest all this time as a fan? It's like being a fan of a pro sports team with a crappy owner, it's never going to get where we want it consistently until the owner changes. 

#firegarpax

.....stupid Bulls

[BGleas]

14 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

This is the opinion of 1 person but has access to.many peoples thoughts so I dont know how much of his opinion is shaped or his own. 

Lots of positive things were said. For him he does not think pack line will work.  Too many good shooters and you make good shooters great ok shooters good. They always will have shooters in his opinion. Questions in game adjustments thinks the Romeo effect will he a negative and IS currently being used with the.top talent.

Last thing I can say without crossing a line of mistrust. CAM needs to close the state border to win and he does not see that will happen with 21 class. Like I said its 1 person thoughts but at this point he does not see multiple guys in class staying in state

Thanks for clarifying. Again this isn't a criticism of you, you know I love what you bring to the board, I just wanted to dig a little deeper into what you were getting at, because we both know how these narratives develop a life of their own on these message boards. One more loss and we're seeing posts all over different boards about how other coaches think Archie stinks, other coaches want him to stay at IU because they think he stinks, etc., when the reality is that it's way more about the admin and maybe a coach that just doesn't like the packline. 

I'm not saying the coach you spoke to doesn't know what he's saying, clearly he knows more than any of us, but like you said, it's one man's opinion. It seems that coach actually thinks fairly highly of Archie, just thinks the admin and fans hold things back a bit and he doesn't care too much for the packline. I understand the criticism of the packline and I hope Archie develops some flexibility with it, especially as 3-pt shooting becomes such a big part of the game. I share some of those concerns, but the other reality is that UVA has had a ton of success, including a National Title, running the packline. 

Really appreciate you bringing all this info for discussion to the board. 

[Zlinedavid]

6 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

#firegarpax

.....stupid Bulls

I'll see your Reinsdorf and raise you a Mike Brown.  #bungles #whodey?alldey

[Billingsley99]

20 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Thanks for clarifying. Again this isn't a criticism of you, you know I love what you bring to the board, I just wanted to dig a little deeper into what you were getting at, because we both know how these narratives develop a life of their own on these message boards. One more loss and we're seeing posts all over different boards about how other coaches think Archie stinks, other coaches want him to stay at IU because they thing he stinks, etc., when the reality is that it's way more about the admin and maybe a coach that just doesn't like the packline. 

I'm not saying the coach you spoke to doesn't know what he's saying, clearly he knows more than any of us, but like you said, it's one man's opinion. It seems that coach actually thinks fairly highly of Archie, just thinks the admin and fans hold things back a bit and he doesn't care too much for the packline. I understand the criticism of the packline and I hope Archie develops some flexibility with it, especially as 3-pt shooting becomes such a big part of the game. I share some of those concerns, but the other reality is that UVA has had a ton of success, including a National Title, running the packline. 

Really appreciate you bringing all this info for discussion to the board. 

Thank you.  I sat on it for a week and if I had posted it after FSU.Maybe people would see it differently.  CAM is very highly regarded among coaches. Especially for his work ethic. 

[JugRox]

17 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I agree with the bolded. Pretty much disagree with the rest of your post, but agree with the bolded. I posted in the Lander thread yesterday about some of IU's recruiting over the last 17 or so years. Since 2003 (as far back as 24/7 goes), IU has had 2 top 50 recruits in the same class exactly ONE time. We've had 3 top 100 recruits in the same class 4 times and two of those were pre-Crean. 

That's not a coach problem, that's an administration problem. There have been some pretty interesting things come out over the last year about the program. Archie being shocked at some of the facilities, shocked at the budget on some things, and news in the Rabjohn's article or podcast last year that IU's compliance is basically out to trip the coaches up as opposed to working with them to navigate the rules. 

I am 100% convinced that Archie is just as good as Holtman and Mack, and frankly people dismiss that Holtman walked into a much better situation, but that's a debate for another day. But, the huge, huge difference is the schools and the administrations that Holtman and Mack work for, as opposed to what Archie is dealing with. 

My opinion, based on some of the things that have come out over the last year or so, and Crean's comments when he exited about not being on the same page as the admin, is that compared to Holtman and Mack Archie is running a program with one hand tied behind his back. 

Something from a big booster: "The IU basketball program was a brand new Ferrari in the 1980s. Unfortunately, since the administration won't invest in the program, the IU basketball program is still a 1980s Ferrari trying to keep up with modern super cars."

Glass is NOT the problem.....but the people above him.      

[5fouls]

57 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Wrong Scott.  And do not ever blame the fan base.  The fans are the way we are because we've sucked for so long and it's 100% on the administration.  Everyone in the world knew after the Kent St loss that Davis should've been fired. Many were calling for Thad Matta early on in the Davis tenure.  We all wanted Beilein over Sampson but were overruled by our inept administration.  We wanted Brad Stevens after Creans 3rd year.  Most wanted Mack or Marshall or Holtmann over Archie.  

And UK has the worst fans in all of sports.  That never stops them from getting their guy.  Again this is all on the most incompetent administration in college sports history.

You cherry pick one tournament game when Davis was an interim coach to determine he should have been fired?   How about all permanent coaches that get upset by a lower seed in the tournament?  Should they all have bee fired as well.  Fire Knight after Cleveland State and he does not win in '87.

[JugRox]

1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

Wrong Scott.  And do not ever blame the fan base.  The fans are the way we are because we've sucked for so long and it's 100% on the administration.  Everyone in the world knew after the Kent St loss that Davis should've been fired. Many were calling for Thad Matta early on in the Davis tenure.  We all wanted Beilein over Sampson but were overruled by our inept administration.  We wanted Brad Stevens after Creans 3rd year.  Most wanted Mack or Marshall or Holtmann over Archie.  

And UK has the worst fans in all of sports.  That never stops them from getting their guy.  Again this is all on the most incompetent administration in college sports history.

Most did NOT want Marshall, Mack, or Holtman......you are reinventing history.

Donovan, Stevens, Sean Miller, Alford, etc.......

Especially Alford......good lord thank god that didn't happen....... 

[Zlinedavid]

2 minutes ago, JugRox said:

Most did NOT want Marshall or Holtman......you are reinventing history.

Donovan, Stevens, Sean Miller, Alford, etc.......

Especially Alford......good lord thank god that didn't happen....... 

There were people that wanted Alford 3 years ago? I'd like to know what kind of drugs they take, because they must be a hell of a lot better than mine. 

[Billingsley99]

In defense of CAM and to be 100 percent fair I will add this.  At Indiana you dont get to play much in the gray area. Its black and white for most part. Most of the coaches that we think are elite want to play DEEP in the gray area. The coaches in the B1G feared KS for that reason. I didn't want to share it but that is why they want CAM to stay. There is a fear that with enough losing our fan base would back a cheater and with everything that our state and school has to offer look out.

 

[JugRox]

1 minute ago, Zlinedavid said:

There were people that wanted Alford 3 years ago? I'd like to know what kind of drugs they take, because they must be a hell of a lot better than mine. 

LOL.....oh hell yeah....

[rico]

1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

In defense of CAM and to be 100 percent fair I will add this.  At Indiana you dont get to play much in the gray area. Its black and white for most part. Most of the coaches that we think are elite want to play DEEP in the gray area. The coaches in the B1G feared KS for that reason. I didn't want to share it but that is why they want CAM to stay. There is a fear that with enough losing our fan base would back a cheater and with everything that our state and school has to offer look out.

 

I wast just about ready to question you about that.

[IU Scott]

19 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

This is the opinion of 1 person but has access to.many peoples thoughts so I dont know how much of his opinion is shaped or his own. 

Lots of positive things were said. For him he does not think pack line will work.  Too many good shooters and you make good shooters great ok shooters good. They always will have shooters in his opinion. Questions in game adjustments thinks the Romeo effect will he a negative and IS currently being used with the.top talent.

Last thing I can say without crossing a line of mistrust. CAM needs to close the state border to win and he does not see that will happen with 21 class. Like I said its 1 person thoughts but at this point he does not see multiple guys in class staying in state

I don't know about the Romeo effect because he had one of the best freshman season IN IU history.  No we did not win as much as we had hoped but he did not hinder what Romeo did on the offensive end.  If it was not for his wrist injury he probably would have shot better which would have made his stats look even better.  also it appears to me he has been able to get TJD a top recruit to flourish so far in his system.

[IU Scott]

11 minutes ago, JugRox said:

Something from a big booster: "The IU basketball program was a brand new Ferrari in the 1980s. Unfortunately, since the administration won't invest in the program, the IU basketball program is still a 1980s Ferrari trying to keep up with modern super cars."

Glass is NOT the problem.....but the people above him.      

I don't know the behind the scenes stuff but what can the administration do more than what they have the last few year.  The have renovated AH and built Cook Hall and just got new locker rooms.  We have the largest recruiting budget so what do you want them to do that they are not doing now.

[Billingsley99]

19 minutes ago, rico said:

I wast just about ready to question you about that.

I hate to admit it but I have heard more college coaches say that half jokingly the if you ain't cheating you aint trying statement more and more. It's only getting worse. 

[Zlinedavid]

2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

In defense of CAM and to be 100 percent fair I will add this.  At Indiana you dont get to play much in the gray area. Its black and white for most part. Most of the coaches that we think are elite want to play DEEP in the gray area. The coaches in the B1G feared KS for that reason. I didn't want to share it but that is why they want CAM to stay. There is a fear that with enough losing our fan base would back a cheater and with everything that our state and school has to offer look out.

 

This is a discussion point unto itself.  Note the two highlighted words/phrases above that I'm assuming you meant to use interchangeably. 

Is "being deep in the gray area" cheating? I translate "gray area" as violating the spirit of the law, but not the letter. You find loopholes, some more questionable than others.  But you haven't officially crossed the line.  Hiring a guy that has a reasonable but not stellar coaching resume just because he's the cousin/father/AAU coach of a top recruit? Sure, that's questionable.  Does it outright violate a rule? No.  That's gray. 

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

In defense of CAM and to be 100 percent fair I will add this.  At Indiana you dont get to play much in the gray area. Its black and white for most part. Most of the coaches that we think are elite want to play DEEP in the gray area. The coaches in the B1G feared KS for that reason. I didn't want to share it but that is why they want CAM to stay. There is a fear that with enough losing our fan base would back a cheater and with everything that our state and school has to offer look out.

 

Never want a cheater at IU and if that means no championships so be it.

[Billingsley99]

22 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I don't know about the Romeo effect because he had one of the best freshman season IN IU history.  No we did not win as much as we had hoped but he did not hinder what Romeo did on the offensive end.  If it was not for his wrist injury he probably would have shot better which would have made his stats look even better.  also it appears to me he has been able to get TJD a top recruit to flourish so far in his system.

It's not about performance only. 

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

It's not about performance only. 

What else is it then

[Billingsley99]

19 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

This is a discussion point unto itself.  Note the two highlighted words/phrases above that I'm assuming you meant to use interchangeably. 

Is "being deep in the gray area" cheating? I translate "gray area" as violating the spirit of the law, but not the letter. You find loopholes, some more questionable than others.  But you haven't officially crossed the line.  Hiring a guy that has a reasonable but not stellar coaching resume just because he's the cousin/father/AAU coach of a top recruit? Sure, that's questionable.  Does it outright violate a rule? No.  That's gray. 

The compliance dept at Indiana does not allow you to look for the loophole let alone find it

[Billingsley99]

19 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

What else is it then

Not going to elaborate but special treatment