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Pack Line D vs new 3 pt line


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5 minutes ago, iufaninand said:

Can this defense really be successful against teams that can spread it out with shooters at the increased distance of the college 3 line. More area to cover to defend shooters. Discuss...

There are multiple teams that play it.  There is also variations and it is not the same look every time.  Players need to closeout better bottom line and guard the driver better.

A championship was won last year playing the pack line.

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3 hours ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

There are multiple teams that play it.  There is also variations and it is not the same look every time.  Players need to closeout better bottom line and guard the driver better.

A championship was won last year playing the pack line.

3 pt line changed this year. Do any pro teams use the pack line?  

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20 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

3 pt line changed this year. Do any pro teams use the pack line?  

Bigger court, even deeper 3 point line, and the game is completely different than college. Not even a reasonable comparison IMO. 

Plus im not worried about the D. That is one thing that I know Archie can coach really well and the pack line works in college. Virginia leads the nation basically every year in D with it in the ACC 

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28 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

3 pt line changed this year. Do any pro teams use the pack line?  

I don't know how to answer that because I do not watch thr NBA that often.  I do know they play the passing lanes and zone, which is some principles of Pack Line.  I caught highlights of the Bulls game and both them and Oklahoma shot over 30 3's each.  I got thing that is because of how they were being guarded.

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51 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

3 pt line changed this year. Do any pro teams use the pack line?  

I don't know how to answer that because I do not watch thr NBA that often.  I do know they play the passing lanes and some zone, which is some principles of Pack Line.  I caught highlights of the Bulls game and both them and Oklahoma shot over 30 3's each.  I got to think that is because of how they were being guarded.

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15 minutes ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

I don't know how to answer that because I do not watch thr NBA that often.  I do know they play the passing lanes and zone, which is some principles of Pack Line.  I caught highlights of the Bulls game and both them and Oklahoma shot over 30 3's each.  I got thing that is because of how they were being guarded.

Almost no zone in the nba 

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2 hours ago, 5 championships said:

Bigger court, even deeper 3 point line, and the game is completely different than college. Not even a reasonable comparison IMO. 

Plus im not worried about the D. That is one thing that I know Archie can coach really well and the pack line works in college. Virginia leads the nation basically every year in D with it in the ACC 

NBA is not the only pro basketball.  Iirc the 3 point line now matches international distance. I have never heard of this D being used in the international game 
 

The Packline has worked in college. There is still no data to say it works we are less than 2 months into a new era. Even if it works now as kids get better at shooting at this distance it may not continue. 

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8 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It is a good question imo — 

I do think it’s more about the execution and less about the system / defensive scheme, and I do have confidence in CAM’s defense, but the team has struggled more defensively than I expected. Hopefully it improves with Rob coming back 

Exactly.  It's all about execution.  Over the past 3 seasons we have seen greatness in our defense and at times we have looked terrible.  Too many missed assignments,  mental lapses,  late recovery etc.. it makes no difference what defense you run if the guys dont execute it. 

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1 hour ago, Billingsley99 said:

Exactly.  It's all about execution.  Over the past 3 seasons we have seen greatness in our defense and at times we have looked terrible.  Too many missed assignments,  mental lapses,  late recovery etc.. it makes no difference what defense you run if the guys dont execute it. 

I think late recovery is due to our guards not stopping the dribble. Once that gets corrected ( which is on the players) a lot of the other miscues will clean up...  your thoughts?

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20 minutes ago, hoosier_exotics said:

I think late recovery is due to our guards not stopping the dribble. Once that gets corrected ( which is on the players) a lot of the other miscues will clean up...  your thoughts?

Dribble penetration is the kryptonite to most defenses.  If you cant guard your yard you cant be successful. I agree with your assessment 

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1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

Dribble penetration is the kryptonite to most defenses.  If you cant guard your yard you cant be successful. I agree with your assessment 

If Franklins shot was even close, I truly believe him and Rob would be starting.  His on man D is better than Green or Al in my opinion...  which to me is disappointing,  that two years in a row our freshman are better than our upperclassmen in some important areas.

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22 minutes ago, hoosier_exotics said:

If Franklins shot was even close, I truly believe him and Rob would be starting.  His on man D is better than Green or Al in my opinion...  which to me is disappointing,  that two years in a row our freshman are better than our upperclassmen in some important areas.

The 2 freshmen both played high school ball in Indiana.  Coincidence I think not. 

Very good observation on your part

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8 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

 

NBA is not the only pro basketball.  Iirc the 3 point line now matches international distance. I have never heard of this D being used in the international game 
 

The Packline has worked in college. There is still no data to say it works we are less than 2 months into a new era. Even if it works now as kids get better at shooting at this distance it may not continue. 

Well it worked for VA once but it took an epic PU collapse or it would've been another epic failure by Bennett.  How many 1 and 2 seeds has Tony had that flamed out early?  And Sean Miller still doesn't have a single FF which is comical given all the talent he's had.  I don't think the pack line is the best recipe for NCAA tourney success which is what matters.

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14 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Well it worked for VA once but it took an epic PU collapse or it would've been another epic failure by Bennett.  How many 1 and 2 seeds has Tony had that flamed out early?  And Sean Miller still doesn't have a single FF which is comical given all the talent he's had.  I don't think the pack line is the best recipe for NCAA tourney success which is what matters.

I agree the tournament success is very important  but the first thing is to have consistent success in your conference and those schools have that.

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1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

Well it worked for VA once but it took an epic PU collapse or it would've been another epic failure by Bennett.  How many 1 and 2 seeds has Tony had that flamed out early?  And Sean Miller still doesn't have a single FF which is comical given all the talent he's had.  I don't think the pack line is the best recipe for NCAA tourney success which is what matters.

Agree with your point(s), but I think pace has as much to do with UVA's tournament struggles as the pack line defense does. Playing such a slow pace keeps games closer where anything can happen. Pack line absolutely contributed to their loss to 16 seed though given how many 3s it allowed when UMBC was pulling away

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I think the pack line can be very formidable. That said some teams just match up really well. I think any team that has a lot of deep shooters and a guard that can break down the defense will murder it. There are other ways to attack it other than dribble penetration but that is the most common. To me I think the success of the pack line is in the fact that in general..lower level kids don't tend to shoot high percentages the further away from the basket. The issue we are seeing is that kids are shooting the 3 better and better than ever before. In fact I'd rather run them off the line and then force a wide open 15 footer than a wide open 3. You watch things like runners and floaters and mid range game and it has gone away...suffered. As kids continue to get more comfortable shooting from outside...it will hurt us with this defense. 

I look at a team like Syracuse. That matchup 2-3 zone that used to devastate teams...forcing teams to take a lot of 3's. Syracuse now struggles...and it is no coincidence that kids shoot and make more 3's then ever before. It continues to kill some teams and can make for a matchup nightmare and upset but I don't think you will ever see Syracuse make runs in the NCAAs like they used to. I mean you watch Virginia vs Purdue....Purdue could shoot last year and honestly should have won that game but teams like say UK, UNC or Duke who usually win on talent and athleticism don't have the shooters it makes it very difficult on them. I think with the right matchups we could certainly still do well...but we get against an elite shooting team...watch out...and heck in the NCAA...even a mid major or small conference team could get hot and shoot us right out of it. One thing I do like is that unlike Virginia...we want to play fast on offense. We really look to get out in transition. That said I expect a lot of close games and having a hard time putting teams away because we give up so many looks at 3....but also could easily see us run teams out of the gym if they are off. Look for a lot of 2-6 point wins and 15-20 but not too many 10-12.

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26 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I think the pack line can be very formidable. That said some teams just match up really well. I think any team that has a lot of deep shooters and a guard that can break down the defense will murder it. There are other ways to attack it other than dribble penetration but that is the most common. To me I think the success of the pack line is in the fact that in general..lower level kids don't tend to shoot high percentages the further away from the basket. The issue we are seeing is that kids are shooting the 3 better and better than ever before. In fact I'd rather run them off the line and then force a wide open 15 footer than a wide open 3. You watch things like runners and floaters and mid range game and it has gone away...suffered. As kids continue to get more comfortable shooting from outside...it will hurt us with this defense. 

I look at a team like Syracuse. That matchup 2-3 zone that used to devastate teams...forcing teams to take a lot of 3's. Syracuse now struggles...and it is no coincidence that kids shoot and make more 3's then ever before. It continues to kill some teams and can make for a matchup nightmare and upset but I don't think you will ever see Syracuse make runs in the NCAAs like they used to. I mean you watch Virginia vs Purdue....Purdue could shoot last year and honestly should have won that game but teams like say UK, UNC or Duke who usually win on talent and athleticism don't have the shooters it makes it very difficult on them. I think with the right matchups we could certainly still do well...but we get against an elite shooting team...watch out...and heck in the NCAA...even a mid major or small conference team could get hot and shoot us right out of it. One thing I do like is that unlike Virginia...we want to play fast on offense. We really look to get out in transition. That said I expect a lot of close games and having a hard time putting teams away because we give up so many looks at 3....but also could easily see us run teams out of the gym if they are off. Look for a lot of 2-6 point wins and 15-20 but not too many 10-12.

I said it earlier,  but im convinced we give up open looks due to our on ball D up top.  Our guards are getting abused and it puts everyone else in a bad spot.  Do you give up the layup, or the open 3? Until Al and Green take it personally and decide to play some good D, we will struggle.

I watched the Oregon vs Michigan game the other day. The Pritchard kid from Oregon absolutely abused Simpson on both ends of the floor.  They couldn't keep him out of the lane, and it ultimately cost them the game.

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ITH's breakdown  / film session of how Nebraska used a 5-out spread offense to pick apart our pack line is worth reading / viewing.

https://www.insidethehall.com/2019/12/16/film-session-nebraska-7/

For me this remains more about execution / and players, than the pack line as a system. 

Watch the clips, when you have Brunk and TJD on the top of the key with our pack line spread to the wings, it's going to break down. 

And the 3-man action plays Neb run were well set up -- that's some good coaching/game planning. CAM will have to adjust / prepare the D for this kind of offense, otherwise we get exploited easily.

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