Maryland post game

[5fouls]

8 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

No one is saying fire him today.  If he pulls a miracle like Crean did in year 8 the point will be moot.  But if the season goes like many think it will no competent administration would give him another year.

I don't think this applies to you, so please don't take this personally.  I think you are a good IU fan, just a frustrated one.  But, I also believe there are some posters on the 'Fire Archie' train where it will never be enough.  

He makes the tourney this year, but IU loses first round.  Not good enough.

He wins a regular season title but loses in the Sweet 16.  Not good enough.

IU is 39-0 and loses the Championship game on a half court shot at the buzzer to Texas Tech.  Not good enough.  IU needs to pry Chris Beard away from Lubbock right now.  

Some IU fans will never be happy with anyone other than Bob Knight, or for the younger ones, the aura of Bob Knight.  That's a problem that IU has to overcome, because it does nobody any good to be having these types of conversations when the team is 11-3.

[IUCrazy2]

18 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Conversation between coaching candidate and Athletic Director:

Candidate:  "And, why did you fire your previous coach?"

Athletic Director:  "We were 11-3."

 

Yep.  That has a lot of potential.

 

I bet we are closer to the .590 he has been over 2.5 years then we are to that 11-3 winning percentage by the time the year is up.

Much different convo:

Candidate:  "And why did you fire the last guy?"

AD:  "Well he missed the tournament for the third year in a row-making it 4 in a row of misses between 2 coaches, his recruiting is slowing down, he continued to have the same in game issues in year 3 that he did in year 1, and while we have patience, we believe that there should be a discernable upward trajectory after 3 years because we are willing to pay 1 of the highest salaries in the nation to coincide with our expectations."

This is not about 11-3.  I was one of the people who (stupidly IMO) ignored reality last year when the wheels started to fall off and we were only 12-3.  The losses really started piling up after that point and the play did not change, the competition did.  I got fooled last year and that is on me.

[dbmhoosier]

2 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I don't think this applies to you, so please don't take this personally.  I think you are a good IU fan, just a frustrated one.  But, I also believe there are some posters on the 'Fire Archie' train where it will never be enough.  

He makes the tourney this year, but IU loses first round.  Not good enough.

He wins a regular season title but loses in the Sweet 16.  Not good enough.

IU is 39-0 and loses the Championship game on a half court shot at the buzzer to Texas Tech.  Not good enough.  IU needs to pry Chris Beard away from Lubbock right now.  

Some IU fans will never be happy with anyone other than Bob Knight, or for the younger ones, the aura of Bob Knight.  That's a problem that IU has to overcome, because it does nobody any good to be having these types of conversations when the team is 11-3.

Good enough is making the dance almost every year and occasionally making a deep run.  That shouldn’t be hard at IU.

[Seeking6]

Welp. All done with yesterday. Good little schedule stretch coming up to right this thing and build some momentum. Northwestern and Ohio St at home followed by at Rutgers at Nebraska before Sparty and Maryland come calling to end the month. Need 3 of these next 4 and we'll see what we have for the other two. 

[5fouls]

Just now, IUCrazy2 said:

I bet we are closer to the .590 he has been over 2.5 years then we are to that 11-3 winning percentage by the time the year is up.

Much different convo:

Candidate:  "And why did you fire the last guy?"

AD:  "Well he missed the tournament for the third year in a rule-making it 4 in a row of misses between 2 coaches, his recruiting is slowing down, he continued to have the same in game issues in year 3 that he did in year 1, and while we have patience, we believe that there should be a discernable upward trajectory after 3 years because we are willing to pay 1 of the highest salaries in the nation to coincide with our expectations."

This is not about 11-3.  I was one of the people who (stupidly IMO) ignored reality last year when the wheels started to fall off and we were only 12-3.  The losses really started piling up after that point and the play did not change, the competition did.  I got fooled last year and that is on me.

You are 'assuming' we will miss the tourney.

As far as recruiting, what proof is there that has slowed down?  We have 2 of the top 4 players in the state committed for next year.  Surely you're not 'assuming' were going to miss out on all 3 of Lander, Furst, and Kaufman for 2021 just yet?

 

[IUCrazy2]

1 minute ago, Seeking6 said:

Welp. All done with yesterday. Good little schedule stretch coming up to right this thing and build some momentum. Northwestern and Ohio St at home followed by at Rutgers at Nebraska before Sparty and Maryland come calling to end the month. Need 3 of these next 4 and we'll see what we have for the other two. 

I am shocked if we do better than 2 wins in the next 4 if we continue to play the way we have the past few games.  I think we should beat Northwestern at home, that would be the only game I would have any amount of confidence in.

[NCHoosier32]

if CAM makes the tourney this year, then absolutely he will have shown progress.  even though i am very frustrated and not optimistic, i still think he get and deserves one more after this year even if we don't make it.  he may or may not be the guy, but 4 years seems fair to see a guy get his system in.  i just don't think we'll make it this year or next, and then i'd say, yep it's time.  as stated by others, if you get into firing guys too quickly, you'll never get enough consistency to get where we need to be.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Good enough is making the dance almost every year and occasionally making a deep run.  That shouldn’t be hard at IU.

And is still, clearly, very much possible. It’s year 3, 2 games into the conf.

This has been beaten to death but, again clearly, most tier 1 programs give a coach 5-6 years, to get his team / recruiting / identity built to win. All of the ridiculous early talk of dismissal, New coach search or whatever is just that, ridiculous at this point 

[IUCrazy2]

11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

You are 'assuming' we will miss the tourney.

As far as recruiting, what proof is there that has slowed down?  We have 2 of the top 4 players in the state committed for next year.  Surely you're not 'assuming' were going to miss out on all 3 of Lander, Furst, and Kaufman for 2021 just yet?

 

We had Romeo and followed that with TJD.  Who is the Romeo or TJD in the next class?  That is slowing down.  Particularly when everyone else outside of Romeo and TJD that has been recruited has not developed to a point where the "get old, stay old" method will be successful.  I like the kids we have coming in, they are good pieces that you add to a program that would pay future dividends.  But they are all pieces.  Armaan Franklin was similarly rated, expecting more from those kids then we see from Armaan is the same kind of wishful thinking that had a bunch of people expecting Hunter to not only contribute this year but to be a major piece of what we were doing.

So yes, I would say recruiting is already slowing.

And, not to knock the kids coming in because I like them, but none of them appear to address the one, massive, glaring, issue we have had with our team since Miller took over.  None of them is coming in with the reputation of being a guy that is going to fill it up from behind the arc.  They are slashing, blue collar type of players.  They are supporting cast type of guys...the problem being that they are missing that one big role we need to open things up for TJD and Brunk in the middle next year.

[dbmhoosier]

9 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

We had Romeo and followed that with TJD.  Who is the Romeo or TJD in the next class?  That is slowing down.  Particularly when everyone else outside of Romeo and TJD that has been recruited has not developed to a point where the "get old, stay old" method will be successful.  I like the kids we have coming in, they are good pieces that you add to a program that would pay future dividends.  But they are all pieces.  Armaan Franklin was similarly rated, expecting more from those kids then we see from Armaan is the same kind of wishful thinking that had a bunch of people expecting Hunter to not only contribute this year but to be a major piece of what we were doing.

So yes, I would say recruiting is already slowing.

And IF we miss the dance you can kiss the 2021 class goodbye.  That’s a fact.  No top recruit is going to come here when there’s a 50% chance Archie won’t be here when they arrive.

[rico]

34 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Agreed, however we did work into the ND neutral game etc. Our non-con does need work, to prepare the team better, but how you get there with in hindsight i’m Not sure, have to look at when the schedule is set etc 

I understand that, it is something that Arch and the AD need to address next year.  

[rico]

1 minute ago, dbmhoosier said:

And IF we miss the dance you can kiss the 2021 class goodbye.  That’s a fact.  No top recruit is going to come here when there’s a 50% chance Archie won’t be here when they arrive.

Once again you are assuming something.

[zerawkid]

13 minutes ago, rico said:

Once again you are assuming something.

Agreed.

And, you’re stacking one assumption onto another.

[IUCrazy2]

13 minutes ago, rico said:

Once again you are assuming something.

He is making an inference from the data we have available.  Things could absolutely turn around but I think we are probably 13-5, at best after the next 4.  The 4 after that, I could really see us going 0-4 or 1-3 based on our play the past few games.

Look at our schedule, after the next 8 games, where do you think we are going to be?  I think around 14-8.  Looking at our remaining schedule, I think that 19-12 is our best possible outcome.  To do that we are going to have to beat Iowa, Penn State, and MSU or Maryland at home...or pick up a road win in conference.  I don't have the confidence to call any of those things, do you?  If we are 18-13 or worse, we are firmly on the same bubble we were on last year.

Can play turn around?  Yes.  But at a certain point a tiger has shown its stripes.  We really kind of are what we are after 2.5 years.

[CincyHoosier]

30 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I don't think this applies to you, so please don't take this personally.  I think you are a good IU fan, just a frustrated one.  But, I also believe there are some posters on the 'Fire Archie' train where it will never be enough.  

He makes the tourney this year, but IU loses first round.  Not good enough.

He wins a regular season title but loses in the Sweet 16.  Not good enough.

IU is 39-0 and loses the Championship game on a half court shot at the buzzer to Texas Tech.  Not good enough.  IU needs to pry Chris Beard away from Lubbock right now.  

Some IU fans will never be happy with anyone other than Bob Knight, or for the younger ones, the aura of Bob Knight.  That's a problem that IU has to overcome, because it does nobody any good to be having these types of conversations when the team is 11-3.

Im not on the fire Archie train at all, in fact I have posted support for Archie.  The problem isn't Archie and replacing him with the next flavor of the month wont fix our problem.  We havent been good enough since Bob Knight left and that's not a coincidence.  College basketball passed by Indiana and is now lapping us.  Our administration is not committed to winning and other administrations around the country are.  Its really that simple. 

If we started winning consistently those fans would be silenced.  11-3 is really something like 5-3 against legitimate teams.  Our chances of making the tourney this year are 50/50 at best.  Unfortunately for Archie (and his subsequent replacement if there arent wholesale changes), if we miss the tournament again the blame will be placed on him.  In this scenario he will have lost all momentum and it will be next to impossible to recover.  Then a new head coach will be hired and the cycle will continue.

This team can still figure it out but after 2 road blowouts, a narrow home win against Nebraska, and a home loss to Arkansas I'm skeptical.  Btw I can name about 6 Big ten programs that are better than ours currently.  That's disheartening.  

[zerawkid]

6 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Can play turn around?  Yes.  But at a certain point a tiger has shown its stripes.  We really kind of are what we are after 2.5 years.

Yeah...I think this might be the case. I am sitting here hoping for a dramatic almost magic turnaround. There was a degree of it last year, right at the end with the MSU wins and others. We just need this team to make the magic happen throughout...and, much sooner.

[OLDIUFAN]

14 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

He is making an inference from the data we have available.  Things could absolutely turn around but I think we are probably 13-5, at best over the next 4.  The 4 after that, I could really see us going 0-4 or 1-3 based on our play the past few games.

Look at our schedule, after the next 8 games, where do you think we are going to be?  I think around 14-8.  Looking at our remaining schedule, I think that 19-12 is our best possible outcome.  To do that we are going to have to beat Iowa, Penn State, and MSU or Maryland at home...or pick up a road win in conference.  If we are 18-13, we are firmly on the same bubble we were on last year.

Can play turn around?  Yes.  But at a certain point a tiger has shown its stripes.  We really kind of are what we are after 2.5 years.

I have to agree with that last statement! We have seen these junior and seniors for several years. They are what they are. No growth what so ever. If anything going backwards. So our only hope is the underclassmen start improving fast. I think 19/12 is a pipe dream . I would be amazed if we finish 18/13. I will be surprised if we win 16 games this year. Wisconsin beat us by twenty, Maryland really beat us by 30. Just empty the bench the last 4:30 minutes. Against our starters. To beat us by 16. 
you think Purdue Ohio St, Mich, mich st will do that not a chance. 
I am really trying to give Archie a chance, but unlike Tom Allen I don’t see what he’s doing to change anything. Let’s face it the Big Ten teams last year had Five players keep a foot in the paint and said fire away guys. They will be doing the same thing this year. 
So Frustrating GO Hoosiers 

[BGleas]

I’m not advocating for firing Archie. I like Archie. I think he can coach and I’d love for him to be ‘the guy’. I really do think he’s the kind of coach that IU fans can love and would love, but I just really worry that the momentum is dangerously close to being lost. I’m really beginning to feel like I felt during Crean’s last year when the team was losing, wasn’t fun to watch, and Crean had missed out on the 2017 class (the class with Scruggs and the kid that went to UCLA, right?). 

I know we haven’t missed the tournament yet and there is still time to turn it around, and I know Archie hasn’t missed on the 2021 class yet, but I feel like this is where we are trending. 

Again, I really like Archie and I want him to succeed, but I just don’t see how this team all of the sudden starts making shots. I don’t see how our guards all of the sudden become good, aggressive, confident and disciplined. I don’t see our guards all of the sudden knocking down shots and being better than other Big Ten backcourt consistently. I like our 2020 class, though worry there isn’t a headliner, but I also don’t see guards or wings in the pipeline that rectify these issues next season. 

So again, I like Archie, I think he can coach and I think he could be ‘the guy’, but if how I’m feeling about this team currently goes the way I think it will, and same for next, I just don’t see how he possible recovers from that. If IU misses the tournament this season, I don’t see us landing more than one of the “big 3” in the 2021class, and possibly missing all 3  

If this season plays out the way I see it playing out, which isn’t a given, then Archie is going to have to make some major changes heading into next season. The status quo won’t work. 

[rico]

12 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I’m not advocating for firing Archie. I like Archie. I think he can coach and I’d love for him to be ‘the guy’. I really do think he’s the kind of coach that IU fans can love and would love, but I just really worry that the momentum is dangerously close to being lost. I’m really beginning to feel like I felt during Crean’s last year when the team was losing, wasn’t fun to watch, and Creanchad missed out on the 2017 (the class with Scruggs and the kid that went to UCLA, right?). 

I know we haven’t missed the tournament yet and there is still time to turn it around, and I know Archie hasn’t missed on the 2021 class yet, but I feel like this is where we are trending. 

Again, I really like Archie and I want him to succeed, but I just don’t see how this team all of the sudden starts making shots. I don’t see how our guards all of the sudden become good, aggressive, confident and disciplined. I don’t see our guards all of the sudden knocking down shots and being better than other Big Ten backcourt consistently. I like our 2020 class, though worry there isn’t a headliner, but I also don’t see guards or wings in the pipeline that rectify these issues next season. 

So again, I like Archie, I think he can coach and I think he could be ‘the guy’, but if how I’m feeling about this team currently goes the way I think it will, and same for next, I just don’t see how he possible recovers from that. 

If this season plays out the way I see it playing out, which isn’t a given, then Archie is going to have to make some major changes heading into next season. The status quo won’t work. 

This why I say Arch needs to change his philosophy.  I have no idea what we are doing offensively other than missing shots and regardless of Maryland's FG% we do not guard the 3, hell we cant' guard the paint.  I can say it enough...change something up.  Push the ball up the floor, take the 1st open look.  Full court press then drop back into a zone.  Something, because his coaching philosophies are not working against quality opponents thus far.

[FW_Hoosier]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

We won’t - but then it won’t matter, because we should’ve won. Same old song and dance.

So you want a 20-page post-game thread celebrating a home victory over 5-7 Northwestern?  Is that really where we’re at in Year 3?

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

I don't think this applies to you, so please don't take this personally.  I think you are a good IU fan, just a frustrated one.  But, I also believe there are some posters on the 'Fire Archie' train where it will never be enough.  

He makes the tourney this year, but IU loses first round.  Not good enough.

He wins a regular season title but loses in the Sweet 16.  Not good enough.

IU is 39-0 and loses the Championship game on a half court shot at the buzzer to Texas Tech.  Not good enough.  IU needs to pry Chris Beard away from Lubbock right now.  

Some IU fans will never be happy with anyone other than Bob Knight, or for the younger ones, the aura of Bob Knight.  That's a problem that IU has to overcome, because it does nobody any good to be having these types of conversations when the team is 11-3.

And to your point 5fouls, I don’t think this could be any further from the truth.  As evidenced by HH’s post I quoted above, expectations have fallen so far since we fired Crean that Archie would get a statue in Assembly Hall if he made the Sweet 16 this year.  All of these “crazy IU fans will only be happy with a national title” arguments are such a ridiculous strawman.  I haven’t seen a single poster here or on any other site that was hoping for anything more than a tournament appearance out of this team, and I know you haven’t either.  We fired the last coach because 3 Sweet 16s and 2 conference titles in 6 years wasn’t good enough, and 3 years later most of the fanbase would be ecstatic just to make it back to the tournament in consecutive years.  There’s absolutely 0 problem with the fanbase’s expectations right now.

And you keep harping on our 11-3 record, but do you really not see that this team has the exact same issues as it did last year?  What are you going to say when 11-3 turns into 13-10?  

[IUDan93]

Jim Jackson said something yesterday that may be at the heart of our issue.  It was at the end of the first half when Brunk threw it away and Maryland had 2.2 seconds to go up by 10 or 11.  His point was that, while it would only by 2 or 3 points if they scored, that going into halftime down 10 or 11 would be a big mental blow.  If we hit 3-4 more free throws per game and 3-4 more three pointers, that would be 12-16 more points per game.  This would have such a profound effect on the team's confidence/attitude/energy etc.  This doesn't even take into account the number of missed layups or bunnies these guys miss.  Is this a problem with scheme?  I don't think so, though many of you know way more about the x's and o's than I do.  Teams that play us have confidence that they can hit shots, many of them seem like well defended shots that are typically low percentage attempts.  Arkansas was hitting shots several feet behind the line, and banked one in early on. The players see each other miss all over the place, and psychologically this has got to be tough to deal with.  It looks to me that we get as many, if not more, good open looks at threes than do our opponents.  A few shots falling in the last 7 minutes against Arkansas changes the outcome.  We seemed to pack it in against Maryland when we had a chance to pull it to 2 points in the 2nd half and did a bunch of dumb things.  The game ended there. I think confidence is the main thing that this program, players, and fans lack at this point.  As BGleas(for one) points out, there gets to be a point of no return.  CAM is responsible for the product and outcome, but he is dependent on players making plays and being coachable.  We wasted the recruitment of Romeo, if nothing changes it will be the same with TJD.  I also think that if CAM doesn't work out, this too will be a wasted opportunity.  He is good enough to finish in the top 4 in the Big Ten and make the tournament consistently, he just is.  Maybe he is not good enough to win NCs, but he is a better coach than our record/production has shown.  

[Zlinedavid]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Some IU fans will never be happy with anyone other than Bob Knight, or for the younger ones, the aura of Bob Knight.  That's a problem that IU has to overcome, because it does nobody any good to be having these types of conversations when the team is 11-3.

I just wanted to quote this because it's absolutely true.

[IUCrazy2]

3 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

I just wanted to quote this because it's absolutely true.

The anybody other than Bob Knight thing is nonsense, now the aura?  I can see that if you mean a guy that is going to be a winner.  That is what people want, to win.  That makes an IU fan no different then any of the schools we hope to compete with.

[Bedford1432]

1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

And IF we miss the dance you can kiss the 2021 class goodbye.  That’s a fact.  No top recruit is going to come here when there’s a 50% chance Archie won’t be here when they arrive.

That would be correct. Recruiting is already falling off 

[tdhoosier]

Tried to let this digest over the night.

Positive: We are still 11-3. If we found a way to turn around last year it’s possible we can turn it around this years. BUT this better happen sooner rather than later and a few players need to step up.

Negative: The offense is lost and the palyers’ confidence is shot. I’m not advocating for CAM to be fired; I think he needs 2 more years. BUT if he doesn’t make the tournament this year he’s in a lot of trouble. The new AD can take a freaking polygraph and say he won’t be fired, but rumors will fly that he’s on the hot seat and it will GREATLY effect recruiting. I hope I’m wrong, but unless he turns this ship around, I don’t see him pulling in another top 75 guy in 2021 or 2022.

An aside: I’m sorry but I think blaming the administration is moving the target off of the problem. I was listening to Brian Snow’s interview on Hoosier Hysterics, and while we aren’t Ohio State, the administration has made drastic improvements. We were behind the curve and now we are on par with other competitive power 5 programs, which is saying a lot since we don’t have all that football money. Look at all the facilities that have been built. Look at the success of our other programs. Does everybody this the administration was that much better when Knight was around?  

A question I posed on on the game thread that never got answered: Why do Rob and Devonte rarely play together???? I just don’t get it. If DG is supposed to be so great off the ball and RP is supposed to be the best distributor then what aren’t they playing together? What’d I’d give just to see a lineup of Rob, Al, Devonte, Justin and Trayce. Just for 3 minutes....just to see how it would work! Give Devonte and Al some open shots where they can get set. See if it spreads out the defense. Just try it Arch!!!