Hoosierhoopster Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 hours ago, 5fouls said: An older way of arguing is speaking in absolutes without providing supporting information to back your position. Except no one here has done that. Come on Fouls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, BGleas said: I respect your opinions as well, goes without saying, we go way back on these forums . But, I think you're creating a narrative or a point that isn't really there. Of course it's difficult to create a 40-minute exclusive 3-guard/wing lineup, we don't have a lot of guards, and our three best, or at least most consistent, players have been TJD, Brunk and Smith. But, I don't believe anyone said that was what they were advocating for? I'm not going to break out the minutes because 1) that's not my job and 2) things flow and change throughout a game. There are moments where 3 bigs are warranted, there are things such as foul trouble, injuries, etc. Here's my thing. I would go small as much as I could and I would shorten the rotation as much as I could. People always talk about depth and how deep we are going to be in the offseason, there was even a thread about it in the late summer/early Fall, and my point in that thread was questioning whether we were actually deep or was it just that nobody had separated themselves? I think it's clearly the latter. This team has a lot of issues, but one of the big issues is that between Anderson and Hunter neither has separated themselves. Between Thompson and Davis, neither has separated themselves (you can argue Thompson has been better, but it's mainly more due to how bad Davis has been). Outside of the Butler game, Franklin hasn't really separated himself, and between Phinisee, Durham and Green, none have really separated themselves. I believe IU should tighten the rotation and go smaller as much as possible, while understanding we can't play 40 minutes of small ball. We need TJD, Brunk and Smith on the floor, I'd just limit how often it happens all 3 together as much as I could. I'm also giving as many minutes as possible in the backcourt/wing to Phinisee, Durham and Franklin, and hoping that lights a fire under Green. IU can win some without Green, but IU can't reach its full potential without a fully engaged, under control, and onboard Green. Unfortunately, it appears he's going to have be shamed into doing it though. For the scrap minutes, I'm choosing between Anderson/Hunter (not sure who to pick here) and Thompson/Davis (I'd choose Thompson) and at least for a few games the loser in those decisions probably isn't getting any time. IU needs one of the guys in each of those groupings to get into a rhythm. By playing both Anderson and Hunter each 5 minutes, instead of one of them 10 minutes you're hindering both of their abilities to get into the flow and feel comfortable. You have to choose one and ride him (same with Thompson/Davis, but again I think Race is the clear choice). I agree with the vast majority of this. I think where I kinds veer off is looking at how we've won so far... In my mind, we have to keep getting to the line (and making them helps!). I know drives to the basket, which I believe is central to your premise of the smaller lineup can get us there, I see a group of guards that will turn it over at a high rate doing that. Force it in the post. Make Kaleb Wesson defend Brunk and/or TJD. Might get a secondary benefit by getting him in foul trouble. We're 4th in the league in offensive rebounds. I'd say we're much better at that when we have Smith, Brunk, and TJD in there, and stats bear that out. I'm just saying the way this team wins, though not pretty, is brute force inside game, and crashing the offensive glass. Not driving guards and kick-outs to shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 54 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I agree with the vast majority of this. I think where I kinds veer off is looking at how we've won so far... In my mind, we have to keep getting to the line (and making them helps!). I know drives to the basket, which I believe is central to your premise of the smaller lineup can get us there, I see a group of guards that will turn it over at a high rate doing that. Force it in the post. Make Kaleb Wesson defend Brunk and/or TJD. Might get a secondary benefit by getting him in foul trouble. We're 4th in the league in offensive rebounds. I'd say we're much better at that when we have Smith, Brunk, and TJD in there, and stats bear that out. I'm just saying the way this team wins, though not pretty, is brute force inside game, and crashing the offensive glass. Not driving guards and kick-outs to shooters. I've never said to not play through the post. I think playing 3 guards lets us play through the post even more. It opens up the lane for our bigs. It's tough to force it inside when there are three defenders, sometimes more, just camped out in the lane. My hope we also be that with more space, more room to operate in the post for our bigs and better driving lanes for our guards/wings that we'd be less reliant on offensive rebounding and more reliant on getting clean, open lanes and shots that we can actually finish. Who know, maybe it doesn't work. But right now, I really, really struggle to see how we score against any good teams if we can't score against NW at home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, BGleas said: I've never said to not play through the post. I think playing 3 guards lets us play through the post even more. It opens up the lane for our bigs. It's tough to force it inside when there are three defenders, sometimes more, just camped out in the lane. My hope we also be that with more space, more room to operate in the post for our bigs and better driving lanes for our guards/wings that we'd be less reliant on offensive rebounding and more reliant on getting clean, open lanes and shots that we can actually finish. Who know, maybe it doesn't work. But right now, I really, really struggle to see how we score against any good teams if we can't score against NW at home? Got ya. And your last point is a good one... I just close my eyes every time I see Al or Devonte, head down, charging at the basket... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlinedavid Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: Force it in the post. Sure. They can force it IN the post all you want. Problem is, with the way our lineups are....it probably ain't coming back out. Teams will either sag back to where vision and passing lanes through the paint will be all but non-existent, or they'll force a turnover (or, we score...yay). There's nobody that will really hurt you outside. Devonte is streakier than downtown Los Angeles in the 70s. Al? Acceptable risk. Race? Can make one occasionally, but not his forte. Rob, Damezi and Jerome theoretically could, but they've shown no signs of emerging. Doesn't help that our best passer out of the paint (De'Ron) is duct tape and bailing wire at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 After the OSU game, CAM said Hunter played his best game of the year and not only spelled Justin with some quality minutes but allowed Justin to play more inside. Points to the lack of quality at the 3 being a key reason why Justin is getting a lot of minutes there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 16 minutes ago, Reacher said: After the OSU game, CAM said Hunter played his best game of the year and not only spelled Justin with some quality minutes but allowed Justin to play more inside. Points to the lack of quality at the 3 being a key reason why Justin is getting a lot of minutes there. Hunter did play well... particularly on defense...but the other thing I liked was on offense how he got down inside and mixed it up...no FGs, but it got him to the line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 We had 102 minutes from our designated 'Bigs' today compared to 98 from our 5 Guards/Wings that played. That is very comparable to the distribution from the last 3 games. Yes, Hunter played more minutes, but Al only played 17, and Armaan only logged 4. In other words, I don't think the fact that Hunter played extra minutes really changed who we have been this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, 5fouls said: We had 102 minutes from our designated 'Bigs' today compared to 98 from our 5 Guards/Wings that played. That is very comparable to the distribution from the last 3 games. Yes, Hunter played more minutes, but Al only played 17, and Armaan only logged 4. In other words, I don't think the fact that Hunter played extra minutes really changed who we have been this season. You might want to listen to CAM's presser. Hunter was key today, defensively, and he comments about the team needing wing play. It's not a mathematical equation, counting minutes is not a good way to assess the team. Leaving that aside, though, I commented in the post game thread that while I continue to think we need better wing play (and I'm sure CAM would play wings more if Hunter wasn't coming off a lost year and we had some more in the fold), I liked how the team played today with Rob and Al helping to open up some space -- the shots Rob hit early helped do that in a big way -- and maybe with Green coming off the bench the team can make the 3-big thing work (at least better). We looked like a good team today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 Just now, Hoosierhoopster said: You might want to listen to CAM's presser. Hunter was key today, defensively, and he comments about the team needing wing play. It's not a mathematical equation, counting minutes is not a good way to assess the team. Leaving that aside, though, I commented in the post game thread that while I continue to think we need better wing play (and I'm sure CAM would play wings more if Hunter wasn't coming off a lost year and we had some more in the fold), I liked how the team played today with Rob and Al helping to open up some space -- the shots Rob hit early helped do that in a big way -- and maybe with Green coming off the bench the team can make the 3-big thing work (at least better). We looked like a good team today. I understand that Jerome played well today. But, it is mathematically important to understand that, if the total minutes of the 5 bigs did not change, then we did not play an INCREASED amount of time in a 3 guard/wing lineup, it just means that one or more of those guards/wings played better than we have seen over the last few games. I get that wing play is important, but based on time played by the entire team, Justin (or Race) combined played just as many minutes at the 3 spot as the 5 traditional guards/wings that played. Math may not always tell the whole story, but it does not lie. Total minutes is important, maybe not as important as what is done with those minutes, but it is important nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 Just now, 5fouls said: I understand that Jerome played well today. But, it is mathematically important to understand that, if the total minutes of the 5 bigs did not change, then we did not play an INCREASED amount of time in a 3 guard/wing lineup, it just means that one or more of those guards/wings played better than we have seen over the last few games. I get that wing play is important, but based on time played by the entire team, Justin (or Race) combined played just as many minutes at the 3 spot as the 5 traditional guards/wings that played. Math may not always tell the whole story, but it does not lie. Total minutes is important, maybe not as important as what is done with those minutes, but it is important nonetheless. Fouls, you can dice up minutes in all kinds of ways, and I think Gleas already covered that in a pretty lengthy way. This way of looking at the game -- by the numbers -- is extremely limited. Yes how many minutes people play is important, of course, but just looking at minutes in relation to how a team is structured? It tells so little about the actual way the game is played. Regardless, again, I said I liked how the team played with the three bigs today -- with Rob and Al, who helped open up lanes, and Green coming off the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWIUFan Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 19 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Fouls, you can dice up minutes in all kinds of ways, and I think Gleas already covered that in a pretty lengthy way. This way of looking at the game -- by the numbers -- is extremely limited. Yes how many minutes people play is important, of course, but just looking at minutes in relation to how a team is structured? It tells so little about the actual way the game is played. Regardless, again, I said I liked how the team played with the three bigs today -- with Rob and Al, who helped open up lanes, and Green coming off the bench. My way of looking at the 3 Big/2 Big debate is not by the numbers but by the way the D had to adjust. Until OSU, we simply weren't hitting the outside shots. RP got us going and DG helped perpetuate the fact that the D could not play off as in prior games. The early made 3's forced the D to cover more of the floor opening up the paint for dribble penetration and some room for the Bigs to operate. Therefore, the 2 Big lineup wasn't necessary for that change today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, FWIUFan said: My way of looking at the 3 Big/2 Big debate is not by the numbers but by the way the D had to adjust. Until OSU, we simply weren't hitting the outside shots. RP got us going and DG helped perpetuate the fact that the D could not play off as in prior games. The early made 3's forced the D to cover more of the floor opening up the paint for dribble penetration and some room for the Bigs to operate. Therefore, the 2 Big lineup wasn't necessary for that change today. I still think we should play smaller more often, but it does change things a bit if Phinisee is going to be healthy and building upon his performance last season. If Phinisee can knock down shots, Durham can knock down shots off the ball and you have Green as a sniper off the bench, then things change. The Phinisee thing changes a lot for this team. It would also help if Smith could become a reliable mid-range shooter. I think he hit two yesterday, that one from the left of the top of the key early in the second half, in rhythm, looked good. I still think we should go smaller more often, but I am much more comfortable with 3 bigs if Phinisee is shooting somewhere between 38-42% from 3, you have Durham in the 37/38% range and Green at 40ish%. That would just open up defenses so much, and then maybe even get guys like Franklin, Hunter and Anderson more open shots when they get opportunities. There could be a trickle down effect. But, it all starts with Phinisee and playing through TJD and Brunk. So much opened up when we got TJD the ball and OSU was doubling him. The perfect example was a play where we got it to TJD on the left block in the second half and OSU doubled him. TJD threw a skip pass to the right corner (can’t remember who), that guy quickly swung it to Smith on the right wing. Smith then dribbled hard to the middle of the paint, drawing in an already scrambling defense, then Smith hit Phinisee for a deep two fading to the left corner. That was beautiful offense, but it showed how key Phinisee is. We’ve done that before but guys weren’t hitting the shots and our ball movement wasn’t as quick and crisp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 Haven't seen it mentioned but our guards were doing some new things yesterday. One of the best plays i saw was Al curling off a screen and immediately driving paint and dishing it off to Brunk early in the game. Then I saw Green post up after a back cut, that the ball is set missed him on. Granted, that's not his forte but he was working off the ball like crazy. Also to note in this bigs conversation. Smith posting up made some very nice plays and with the other teams 3 man, he can abuse them with his athleticism and required a few double teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 17 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said: Haven't seen it mentioned but our guards were doing some new things yesterday. One of the best plays i saw was Al curling off a screen and immediately driving paint and dishing it off to Brunk early in the game. Then I saw Green post up after a back cut, that the ball is set missed him on. Granted, that's not his forte but he was working off the ball like crazy. Also to note in this bigs conversation. Smith posting up made some very nice plays and with the other teams 3 man, he can abuse them with his athleticism and required a few double teams. There were some plays in the second half too where Durham and Green were running off screens away from the ball. The one where Green hit a 3on the right corner and one where Durham curled on the left side, Phinisee hit him curling and then Durham dumped it off to Brunk. Again a healthy, conditioned Phinisee changes everything for this team. I just hope yesterday was a turning of the corner for him, and not a inconsistent high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 Great discussion - those are changes the team made while still running three bigs that changed the way we play. Rob is absolutely key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cutter Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said: Haven't seen it mentioned but our guards were doing some new things yesterday. One of the best plays i saw was Al curling off a screen and immediately driving paint and dishing it off to Brunk early in the game. Then I saw Green post up after a back cut, that the ball is set missed him on. Granted, that's not his forte but he was working off the ball like crazy. Also to note in this bigs conversation. Smith posting up made some very nice plays and with the other teams 3 man, he can abuse them with his athleticism and required a few double teams. I saw that too and Green made a nice V cut off a down screen to set himself up for a 3?that went in the basket. I don’t know this but I think the Boss has a lot to do with this modification of the offense. Jmho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Cutter said: I don’t know this but I think the Boss has a lot to do with this modification of the offense. Jmho I didn't know Springsteen knew anything about basketball 😁 On a serious note, I'll leave the 3 big/3 guard debate...I've transitioned into Al Davis mode... "Just win, baby" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.