Playing devils advocate here....

[Hoosier987]

We need to stop talking about replacements...whether you like it or not, Archie is not going anywhere...Have the results been ideal so far? No, but if Archie can't get it done...nobody will.  I've said this before...but if you are in the Chris Mack or Chris Holtmann camp of "if we had one of these 2 coaches we would be much better and ranked..." you're very mistaken. 

[IUFLA]

7 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Isn’t the buyout offset by whatever he earns elsewhere?  So it really isn’t a big deal.  And this is a completely reasonable discussion.  Miss the dance this season and I guarantee you he’s not the coach here much longer.  Barring massive changes that looks likely.

You have the contract in hand and read that off there, did ya?

He's not going anywhere no matter how hard you click your ruby red slippers together...

[IU Scott]

15 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Isn’t the buyout offset by whatever he earns elsewhere?  So it really isn’t a big deal.  And this is a completely reasonable discussion.  Miss the dance this season and I guarantee you he’s not the coach here much longer.  Barring massive changes that looks likely.

Well if he is as bad of a coach you think he is then he might not get another job LOL!

[IUwins0708]

Let me say I don’t think Archie will be fired and he still has a decent chance at making the tournament.  However if he misses and the season spirals out of control again like last year then I will really question if he gets/deserves a 4th year.  Bottom line is few if any know what the BOT and Boosters are even feeling right now, and nothing (if anything) will be done until a new AD is hired.  I just don’t see it with Archie, hopefully he mans up and sticks to his guns to hold this players more accountable.  Tomorrow will tell me a lot of the future of IU basketball honestly, and the outcome won’t even be part of it.

[13th&Jackson]

This is going to be my last post in this thread. In 2017, CAM's last Dayton team (7 seed) had a first round matchup against 30-4 (10 seed) Wichita State. WS won 64-58, then took KY to the wire, losing 65-62. KY went to the FF.

After the game, Charles Barkley went off on the selection committee for underseeding both teams and pairing them in the first round. He said, watching the game, they were two of the best coaches in the tourney.

Here's a game summary:

Tenth-seeded Wichita State always finds a way to reserve its best effort for the NCAA Tournament. The Shockers (31-4) won their 16th straight game by holding the Flyers, who average 76.5 points per game, below 60 points for just the second time this season. Dayton (24-8) committed a scant six turnovers and forced 16, but were unable to find enough offense to prevent a second consecutive first-round exit.

Don't know if CAM will be successful at IU, but he can coach. If he isn't successful and gets fired, I hate to think where that leaves the status of the program.

[AxnJxn]

I think he absolutely deserves another year, but I also think there are legit reasons for concern. The optimist in me says that this could all just be a chemistry thing, possibly even leftover stuff from what was going on last year, and it won't be fixed until certain guys are gone. The pessimist says a lot of these things sound like excuses, and we're not seeing anything new on the court. We also have the majority of the B1G season ahead of us, so trying to withhold judgment until later, but it's difficult to do that when you're down by 10 in the second half at home against Northwestern. 

[IUCrazy2]

9 hours ago, CTrojan88 said:

I am not sure, after reading the whole thing again, how you can interpret it any other way.  Basically says that Archie isn’t the guy and if IU ever gets the guy, they could be a perinneal top 5 program again.  

When I read that again, I also have a different take on the fanbase holding us back angle.  I do not think it is a matter of the fanbase being hard on coaches, I think it is the Puritanical approach that many of the fanbase have.  There are too many in the fanbase who believe that Indiana has to do everything the way that Bob Knight used to do it.  I love Knight, but I think there are other ways to skin a cat.  Would be interesting to have that clarified.

Kind of throwing some of the thoughts of some posters on its head.  It is not the fire to early crowd that hurts us, it is the "we cannot do this or that because that is not how IU operates" crowd.

[IUwins0708]

1 minute ago, AxnJxn said:

I think he absolutely deserves another year, but I also think there are legit reasons for concern. The optimist in me says that this could all just be a chemistry thing, possibly even leftover stuff from what was going on last year, and it won't be fixed until certain guys are gone. The pessimist says a lot of these things sound like excuses, and we're not seeing anything new on the court. We also have the majority of the B1G season ahead of us, so trying to withhold judgment until later, but it's difficult to do that when you're down by 10 in the second half at home against Northwestern. 

I completely agree, just scares me that all 3 teams of his so far seem to have some sort of chemistry issues.  Which probably falls in the 50/50 on coach/players fault.

[addictedtoIU]

Too old. And he needs a couple of years to build a program, then he'll be 70. 

[AxnJxn]

1 minute ago, IUwins0708 said:

I completely agree, just scares me that all 3 teams of his so far seem to have some sort of chemistry issues.  Which probably falls in the 50/50 on coach/players fault.

Agreed. My hope is that if it's a chemistry issue, it's possible that could be fixed simply with guys graduating and whatnot.

[BGleas]

36 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Here's the problem with absolutes like miss the NCAAT four years and you're done. What if Davis makes the tip in against ARK last year and IU is in the first four instead of an NIT 1 seed. Does that mean CAM gets six years to prove himself, but since it didn't happen he has four?

This is an interesting take as well. If Davis hits the tip in at Ark and Phinisee hits the front-end of a one and one free throw (putting us up 4) with a couple seconds left at Iowa, then IU would have been a tournament lock, not a first 4/bubble team, they would have been an absolute lock. That would have been two more Power 5 road wins. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

For those that are completely against this thread why are you even posting in here?  Why do you care?  Why put your energy and tell them how ignorant and stupid they are for even making this thread?  I understand its premature and unlikely to happen, but why can't you just let them have this thread to discuss what they want?  Its not hurting anyone and allows them to vent to like minded people.  Whether you like it or not, there are those who are not happy with the coach and this team.  Not everyone is the look on the bright side or give them more time kind of fan.  But they are fans never the less and should be able to voice their concerns without being told this thread is stupid and should be taken down.  Just don't read it or post in it.  Leave them to their own discussing and beliefs.  You know coming here and telling them they have no idea what they're talking about and trying to change their minds is doing nothing more than fanning the flame.  Everyone has the rights to post on here as long as they follow the rules. 

And this goes the same for those who want to jump into every positive thread and drag it down with nothing but negative post.  

Just my 2 cents.

[3Ballin]

3 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

For those that are completely against this thread why are you even posting in here?  Why do you care?  Why put your energy and tell them how ignorant and stupid they are for even making this thread?  I understand its premature and unlikely to happen, but why can't you just let them have thread to discuss what they want?  Its not hurting anyone and allows them to vent to like minded people.  Whether you like it or not, there are those who are not happy with the coach and this team.  Not everyone is the look on the bright side or give them more time kind of fan.  But they are fans never the less and should be able to voice their concerns without being to told this thread is stupid and should be taken down.  Just don't read it or post in it.  Leave them to their own discussing and beliefs.  You know coming here and telling them they have no idea what they're talking about and trying to change their minds is doing nothing more than fanning the flame.  Everyone has the rights to post on here as long as they follow the rules. 

Just my 2 cents.

Just to clarify, I didnt start this whole thing as a rally cry to get the torches, pitchforks and moving trucks.  I dont even think CAM should go at all.  But with all the talk and worry that there's been on here before I posted this, i was just curious what everyone thought of Beilein as a replacement if a change were to be made.  

I expected more responses along the lines of what @addictedtoIU just said than disertations on why he should or should not go.

[IU Scott]

24 minutes ago, IUwins0708 said:

Let me say I don’t think Archie will be fired and he still has a decent chance at making the tournament.  However if he misses and the season spirals out of control again like last year then I will really question if he gets/deserves a 4th year.  Bottom line is few if any know what the BOT and Boosters are even feeling right now, and nothing (if anything) will be done until a new AD is hired.  I just don’t see it with Archie, hopefully he mans up and sticks to his guns to hold this players more accountable.  Tomorrow will tell me a lot of the future of IU basketball honestly, and the outcome won’t even be part of it.

The thing is the new AD won't take over until May or June and that is usually to late to make a move

[IU Scott]

13 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

For those that are completely against this thread why are you even posting in here?  Why do you care?  Why put your energy and tell them how ignorant and stupid they are for even making this thread?  I understand its premature and unlikely to happen, but why can't you just let them have this thread to discuss what they want?  Its not hurting anyone and allows them to vent to like minded people.  Whether you like it or not, there are those who are not happy with the coach and this team.  Not everyone is the look on the bright side or give them more time kind of fan.  But they are fans never the less and should be able to voice their concerns without being told this thread is stupid and should be taken down.  Just don't read it or post in it.  Leave them to their own discussing and beliefs.  You know coming here and telling them they have no idea what they're talking about and trying to change their minds is doing nothing more than fanning the flame.  Everyone has the rights to post on here as long as they follow the rules. 

And this goes the same for those who want to jump into every positive thread and drag it down with nothing but negative post.  

Just my 2 cents.

Because discussions like this only hurts the program if the recruits, players and families see these discussions.  We just want to show that our fan base is not just represented by the loud vocal crowd who wants a change.

[DC2345]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

The thing is the new AD won't take over until May or June and that is usually to late to make a move

That's why Archie will get another year unless it turns into a dumpster fire again this year. The only problem is without success Archie will likley miss out on the 2021 class like Crean did in 2017. 2021 could be even better but I remember how Crean missed on all those guys. I don't think any of those players want to come to IU if it isn't winning conference games and making the tournament. 

[5 championships]

10 hours ago, JABBATHEHOOSIER said:

John Beilein's first 4 years at Michigan were as follows

Year 1 - 10-22

Year 2 - 21-14

Year 3 - 15-17

Year 4- 21-14

Our fanbase would have never allowed him to reach his full potential here. Michigan was patient and it paid off. I hope Archie can get the same treatment.

 

Same treatment? Haha funny. 

[5 championships]

9 hours ago, Rogermci said:

I live in Dayton adjacent to UD campus, went to IU and have watched the game for many many years.  Went to probably 40 games that Archie coached and watched most of the rest on TV.  

Archie did more with less than any coach that I know of in college basketball.   In 6 years he had 2 top 100 recruits and one transferred out.  Made the Sweet 16 one year and Elite 8 another. Kicked 2 players off the team that made the 16. Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. Archie can flat out coach.   

This entire discussion can and will be viewed by recruits and parents of recruits.  It's a disgrace and will be counter productive in our attempts to attract top players to IU.  

 

Best post I’ve read in weeks!!!! IU fans like I’ve said hurt themselves more than they help. Shut up and let the season play out 

[Indy1987]

22 minutes ago, IUwins0708 said:

Let me say I don’t think Archie will be fired and he still has a decent chance at making the tournament.  However if he misses and the season spirals out of control again like last year then I will really question if he gets/deserves a 4th year.  Bottom line is few if any know what the BOT and Boosters are even feeling right now, and nothing (if anything) will be done until a new AD is hired.  I just don’t see it with Archie, hopefully he mans up and sticks to his guns to hold this players more accountable.  Tomorrow will tell me a lot of the future of IU basketball honestly, and the outcome won’t even be part of it.

Kinda where I'm at.  Still plenty of games to play and win to make the dance.  The thing that worries me is what if we go on another long losing streak like last season?  With the schedule and they way we are playing it's very possible.  I'm not sure if CAM would survive that. 

Go Hoosiers!!!

[Billingsley99]

40 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

This is going to be my last post in this thread. In 2017, CAM's last Dayton team (7 seed) had a first round matchup against 30-4 (10 seed) Wichita State. WS won 64-58, then took KY to the wire, losing 65-62. KY went to the FF.

After the game, Charles Barkley went off on the selection committee for underseeding both teams and pairing them in the first round. He said, watching the game, they were two of the best coaches in the tourney.

Here's a game summary:

Tenth-seeded Wichita State always finds a way to reserve its best effort for the NCAA Tournament. The Shockers (31-4) won their 16th straight game by holding the Flyers, who average 76.5 points per game, below 60 points for just the second time this season. Dayton (24-8) committed a scant six turnovers and forced 16, but were unable to find enough offense to prevent a second consecutive first-round exit.

Don't know if CAM will be successful at IU, but he can coach. If he isn't successful and gets fired, I hate to think where that leaves the status of the program.

Since the thread title us Devils advocate let me play. 

Conferences life the A10, MVC ,MAC are what we call mid majors and are full of very good coaches but not like the level you see in BIG,ACC ETC...  the power 5 schools have a much bigger staff for scouting.  In the Mid majors you obviously know you opponents very well and their tendencies but cannot devote the same time to breaking everything down like you can in the BIG. 

I would also say that playing 20 games in the BIG takes much more wear and tear on your team and your staff than 20 games in the A10.

Come tourney time a 12 seed is focusing solely on the 5 seed and allocate most resources to heating that team. From the flip side the 5 seed is scouting their opponent and their possibility of the 2 teams they could face. When the 12 seed wins I believe that on such a short turnaround anything is possible. Having that chip on your shoulder as well as getting hot from 3 can take a team a long way in the tourney.

I dont think that the pressure in the A10 is a fraction of what it is in the Big for the coaches. Much more responsibility,  Hope's, etc..

Last night we watched a much better UM team at home need 2OT to beat PU, because PU was better coached and better prepared.  

There are many reasons that I think coaches that make the big jump to Power 5 are not successful and it does not mean they are not very good coaches but in the BIG if you fart the other staffs in the league know it. I could write a book about this topic but here are just a few points that I think get overlooked. Winning in this conference is not easy. 

 

[zerawkid]

28 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

For those that are completely against this thread why are you even posting in here?  Why do you care?  Why put your energy and tell them how ignorant and stupid they are for even making this thread?  I understand its premature and unlikely to happen, but why can't you just let them have this thread to discuss what they want?  Its not hurting anyone and allows them to vent to like minded people.  Whether you like it or not, there are those who are not happy with the coach and this team.  Not everyone is the look on the bright side or give them more time kind of fan.  But they are fans never the less and should be able to voice their concerns without being told this thread is stupid and should be taken down.  Just don't read it or post in it.  Leave them to their own discussing and beliefs.  You know coming here and telling them they have no idea what they're talking about and trying to change their minds is doing nothing more than fanning the flame.  Everyone has the rights to post on here as long as they follow the rules. 

And this goes the same for those who want to jump into every positive thread and drag it down with nothing but negative post.  

Just my 2 cents.

Very few people like a one-sided, railroaded discussion, particularly if it’s contentious subject matter. Wishing away the naysayers will only make a number of them ensure their voices are heard.

[Indy1987]

8 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Because discussions like this only hurts the program if the recruits, players and families see these discussions.  We just want to show that our fan base is not just represented by the loud vocal crowd who wants a change.

I think missing the tournament 3 years in a row is all the ammo an opposing coach needs to negative recruit against us.  That and just a recruit and his family watching our games, seeing losses where players aren't hustling, player's not improving,  etc...   Those are the things that matter to recruits not what a bunch of random people on message boards are spouting off about.

Go Hoosiers!!!

[NotIThatLives]

It's all about trending.  Product on the court, off the court.  Recruiting.  

On the court is stuck in neutral.

Off the court, no one is getting arrested, Smith is academic all whatever.  With lack of arrests, that is trending better than the past regime.

Recruiting.  Guess you have to call it neutral because it's not trending good enough to show improvement in the win column.  

Not a dooms-dayer but that's not good enough.  

[milehiiu]

4 minutes ago, zerawkid said:

Very few people like a one-sided, railroaded discussion, particularly if it’s contentious subject matter. Wishing away the naysayers will only make a number of them ensure their voices are heard.

Preaching to the choir.  We all have our bias's/preferences.  Thoughts and opinions. Including moderators.  Fortunately, we had a moderator who demonstrated good common sense in not disposing of this thread. And look at what a thread has resulted. 

First rule of Hoosier Sports Nation : Respect all members and moderators.  I want to thank everyone who has lived by that rule in this thread.  Conducting themselves in a civil manner, while still getting their point across.

[zerawkid]

4 minutes ago, Indy1987 said:

I think missing the tournament 3 years in a row is all the ammo an opposing coach needs to negative recruit against us.  That and just a recruit and his family watching our games, seeing losses where players aren't hustling, player's not improving,  etc...   Those are the things that matter to recruits not what a bunch of random people on message boards are spouting off about.

Go Hoosiers!!!

Ya know, maybe.

Here’s what I am not so sure about, I’m not sure I know precisely what coaches actually sell the high level, NBA-prospect level recruits on. Is the priority to come here and make the tourney? Is it to get maximum exposure (which, I guess the tourney appearances would help with)? Development? Academics? 
 

In essence, I know it’s gonna be different criteria for different recruits, and I don’t intend on minimizing the potential importance tourney berths have on the dialogue between a program and a recruit, but, is it the most vital thing often enough? 
 

People around here are talking about having no recruiting momentum with a team like this. Well, then, we haven’t been good, consistently good, for a long time, but we’ve still managed to recruit at a reasonably high level. In fact, without pulling data, I’ll bet we recruit beyond where programs with similarly positioned “success” are able to accomplish.